|
diesel___smoke
Feb 11, 2004, 11:03 PM
Post #26 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
|
Actually, no nerve has been touched, I'm rather neutral about the whole thing. So far I've only had a nerve touched in one thread that I can recall, it was about the best why to place bolts or something along those lines (A bolt ethics issue is what it turned into either way), which I got pretty heated about.
Along with what Jay has said so far, I'd have to agree, the rope sounds fine. I simply didn't want him to exclude others and their opinions.
I've called people on their BS, people have called me on mine... but I will always defend any person who is being excluded on their opinions, regardless of how wrong, I, or anyone else thinks they might be.
|
|
|
|
|
flagpolewizard
Feb 11, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #27 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 68
|
For instance, many of the windows in my apartment allow UV-rays entrance into an environment which remains cool and dry, but sees many hours per day of exposure to UV-rays. Another less likely scenario would be an arctic or alpine environment, where it never rains nor thaws but receives huge amounts of UV rays in an environment that is both cool and dry. The reflection of UV-rays off the snow can magnify their power also. Need I enumerate more?
just to let you know, UV rays can't penetrate glass, visible light yes, and that light carries heat, seems bright, could even hurt your eyes, visible light can even over long enough periods of time bleach colors out of things, but if you don't want to believe it when was the last time you heard of someone getting a sunburn while they were inside
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 11, 2004, 11:23 PM
Post #28 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
People ask questions on a climbing forum to hear the correct opinions. Wrong opinions are dangerous and should be squashed :twisted: . (or at least flamed :wink: )
|
|
|
|
|
diesel___smoke
Feb 11, 2004, 11:30 PM
Post #30 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
|
For instance, many of the windows in my apartment allow UV-rays entrance into an environment which remains cool and dry, but sees many hours per day of exposure to UV-rays. Another less likely scenario would be an arctic or alpine environment, where it never rains nor thaws but receives huge amounts of UV rays in an environment that is both cool and dry. The reflection of UV-rays off the snow can magnify their power also. Need I enumerate more?
just to let you know, UV rays can't penetrate glass, visible light yes, and that light carries heat, seems bright, could even hurt your eyes, visible light can even over long enough periods of time bleach colors out of things, but if you don't want to believe it when was the last time you heard of someone getting a sunburn while they were inside
They most certainly do, Windows and car windshields somewhat reduce exposure to ultraviolet B (UVB) radiation. Only car windshields are partially treated against ultraviolet A (UVA) rays.
|
|
|
|
|
diesel___smoke
Feb 11, 2004, 11:31 PM
Post #31 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
|
In reply to: In reply to: For instance, many of the windows in my apartment allow UV-rays entrance into an environment which remains cool and dry, but sees many hours per day of exposure to UV-rays. Another less likely scenario would be an arctic or alpine environment, where it never rains nor thaws but receives huge amounts of UV rays in an environment that is both cool and dry. The reflection of UV-rays off the snow can magnify their power also. Need I enumerate more? just to let you know, UV rays can't penetrate glass, visible light yes, and that light carries heat, seems bright, could even hurt your eyes, visible light can even over long enough periods of time bleach colors out of things, but if you don't want to believe it when was the last time you heard of someone getting a sunburn while they were inside
They most certainly do, windows and car windshields somewhat reduce exposure to ultraviolet B (UVB) radiation. However, only car windshields are partially treated against ultraviolet A (UVA) rays. After all, why do furniture, carpets, draperies, artwork, blinds, etc fade?
|
|
|
|
|
flagpolewizard
Feb 11, 2004, 11:50 PM
Post #32 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 68
|
like I said, visible light can fade things as well, and specific dyes react differently over time to both visible and UV light, so fading is an irrelevent measure, but if the UV light is so negligable that it can't even begin to give you a sun burn no matter how long your exposed to it, I don't think it will hurt your rope either, as for you saying what kind of glass protects against what light, I just don't buy it
intresting question, anyone ever consider a product to prevent UV damage to ropes and slings, sunblock for you gear kind of thing
I'm also going to throw out that those UV advisaries are meant to keep people from counting on that old ultra-mank sling that has been tied to the anchors since the first bush was in office
|
|
|
|
|
tucsonalex
Feb 11, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #33 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 11, 2002
Posts: 1689
|
In reply to: like I said, visible light can fade things as well, and specific dyes react differently over time to both visible and UV light, so fading is an irrelevent measure, but if the UV light is so negligable that it can't even begin to give you a sun burn no matter how long your exposed to it, I don't think it will hurt your rope either, as for you saying what kind of glass protects against what light, I just don't buy it intresting question, anyone ever consider a product to prevent UV damage to ropes and slings, sunblock for you gear kind of thing I'm also going to throw out that those UV advisaries are meant to keep people from counting on that old ultra-mank sling that has been tied to the anchors since the first bush was in office
Glass needs to be treated to protect against UV. That's why sunglasses protect your eyes while you get sunburned on a 12 hour road trip with the windows rolled up (I know I'm not the only one this has happened to).
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 12:26 AM
Post #34 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: On the flip side of all that, i just looked at the mammut pdf posted by someone and it claims that a rope with occasional (monthly) use should be replaced after five years. This rope has seen (averaged out) about that much. So again, while the rope looks and feels ok, it makes me wonder. About that... I believe that they aren't considering only TR in that, but rather overall rope usage, including lead falls, etc...
Thanks for stepping in. My patience had just about run out.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
munckee
Feb 12, 2004, 12:31 AM
Post #35 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2001
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: On the flip side of all that, i just looked at the mammut pdf posted by someone and it claims that a rope with occasional (monthly) use should be replaced after five years. This rope has seen (averaged out) about that much. So again, while the rope looks and feels ok, it makes me wonder. About that... I believe that they aren't considering only TR in that, but rather overall rope usage, including lead falls, etc... Thanks for stepping in. My patience had just about run out. -Jay
It runs out pretty quickly I guess. It's a good point, but one that I simply hadn't thought of.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 12:40 AM
Post #36 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: On the flip side of all that, i just looked at the mammut pdf posted by someone and it claims that a rope with occasional (monthly) use should be replaced after five years. This rope has seen (averaged out) about that much. So again, while the rope looks and feels ok, it makes me wonder. About that... I believe that they aren't considering only TR in that, but rather overall rope usage, including lead falls, etc... Thanks for stepping in. My patience had just about run out. -Jay It runs out pretty quickly I guess. It's a good point, but one that I simply hadn't thought of.
Well, first of all, rather than bother to use the search function, you post a basic question that has been discussed to death. Nevertheless, I take the time to answer your question, based on knowledge gained through rather extensive research and discussion with experienced climbers, some of whom are also materials engineers. In addition, a bunch of beginners share their "opinions," and apparently you are unable to discriminate between the two. Then, just as it seems that you are starting to get it, you misconstrue the info on the mfg's tag and we're back to square 1. So, yeah, my patience wore out.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
munckee
Feb 12, 2004, 2:06 AM
Post #37 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2001
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: On the flip side of all that, i just looked at the mammut pdf posted by someone and it claims that a rope with occasional (monthly) use should be replaced after five years. This rope has seen (averaged out) about that much. So again, while the rope looks and feels ok, it makes me wonder. About that... I believe that they aren't considering only TR in that, but rather overall rope usage, including lead falls, etc... Thanks for stepping in. My patience had just about run out. -Jay It runs out pretty quickly I guess. It's a good point, but one that I simply hadn't thought of. Well, first of all, rather than bother to use the search function, you post a basic question that has been discussed to death. Nevertheless, I take the time to answer your question, based on knowledge gained through rather extensive research and discussion with experienced climbers, some of whom are also materials engineers. In addition, a bunch of beginners share their "opinions," and apparently you are unable to discriminate between the two. Then, just as it seems that you are starting to get it, you misconstrue the info on the mfg's tag and we're back to square 1. So, yeah, my patience wore out. -Jay
The search function is rather difficult to gain specific information from unless you're looking up a particular brand or model. Somehow I didn't figure that it would yeild much info on MY rope.
Beyond that, how am I possibly supposed to differentiate your all knowing and superior, research based conclusions from those of the other "beginners" on this board. I don't know you. I don't know your background. I don't know how much research you've done compared to everyone else who posts. Should I just assume that because you're you, you automatically know better than everyone else?
Yeah, I looked at the manufacturers suggestions. That was something that was recommended by other users and I did so by following a specific link that another forum member responded with.
So, all that being said, please ignore my stupidity oh great and knowledgable one. Thank you every so much for taking the time from your obviously busy schedule to answer my apparently useless and over-discussed question. I will know in the future to bow down in respect to your knowledge and will hence forth come to you first with any question I have since you obviously are far more capable of answering than ANY other person on this forum. :roll:
Give me a break. Like I said, you lose your patience too easily. If my questions are so worthless then ignore them.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Feb 12, 2004, 2:29 AM
Post #38 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
Every concievable topic has been hammered out over and over and over and over. We all know this. Posting on RC.com is like masturbation, it's not exciting anymore, we know how it's going to end, and we don't openly admit to doing it, yet we keep doing it. 70 posts and counting.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 2:52 AM
Post #39 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Give me a break. Like I said, you lose your patience too easily. If my questions are so worthless then ignore them.
Perhaps I'll do that. Keep in mind, though, that if I had I ignored your question in this thread, you'd be throwing away a perfectly good toprope. I saved you about $150. If that kind of advice is important to you, then maybe you should think twice about who you choose to mouth off to.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
mattiem
Feb 12, 2004, 3:31 AM
Post #40 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 104
|
I am going to paraphrase something that i read. I am almost certain it was John Long in one of his "How to climb" series books. Though it might have been Accidents in North American Mountaineering. If i'm wrong, sorry John. It went something like this
"There are no reported cases of a modern climbing rope failing, EVER".
Ropes get cut and worn through but climbing ropes don't just break.
For a toprope where the rope isn't running over any sharp edges or rough rock it will be fine for years to come.
If you decide to not use the rope let me know i'll give it a good home. :)
as usual after typing a reply i realize i could have just said "Yeah, what JT said"
eh
matt
|
|
|
|
|
munckee
Feb 12, 2004, 4:16 AM
Post #41 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2001
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: In reply to: Give me a break. Like I said, you lose your patience too easily. If my questions are so worthless then ignore them. Perhaps I'll do that. Keep in mind, though, that if I had I ignored your question in this thread, you'd be throwing away a perfectly good toprope. I saved you about $150. If that kind of advice is important to you, then maybe you should think twice about who you choose to mouth off to. -Jay
Hey, I'm greatly appreciative of that, but I hardly think that all of the credit goes in your pocket. Plus, when you talk down to people and make them feel stupid, it's not worth it. You're not the only person that expressed your opinion; you just did it the most loudly. You've automatically assumed that I'm a complete moron who doesn't know squat. Not true at all. I didn't come here to get into an argument. I also didn't come here to be treated like an idiot which, in my opinion, is exactly what you've done.
'Nuff said. I'm done. Thanks for the input. From a constructive point of view, I believe that people would find your posts a lot more helpful if you didn't speak down to them but offered your expertise freely and openly. 8)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 4:16 PM
Post #42 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: From a constructive point of view, I believe that people would find your posts a lot more helpful if you didn't speak down to them but offered your expertise freely and openly. 8)
I got news for you: I don't treat people like idiots until they demonstrate that that is what they are. Please re-read my first post to this thread:In reply to: It should be fine for TRing. Leading is questionable, due to possible loss of elasticity with time. We've debated before whether this occurs or not, with no definitive conclusion reached, IMO. So, better safe than sorry. TR only, would be my recommendation.
Things went downhill from there, as the usual trash heap of uninformed "opinions" piled up.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Feb 12, 2004, 4:49 PM
Post #43 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
Not to interrupt this here shouting match ;), but....
In reply to: And I didn't even have to mention the UIAA's findings that UV radiation doesn't damage nylon ropes.
That sounds like interesting stuff. Do you happen to know where I can read more about it? Why does it affect quickdraws but not ropes? Because the sheath and not the core is exposed to the UV, or something?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2004, 5:07 PM
Post #44 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Not to interrupt this here shouting match ;), but.... In reply to: And I didn't even have to mention the UIAA's findings that UV radiation doesn't damage nylon ropes. That sounds like interesting stuff. Do you happen to know where I can read more about it? Why does it affect quickdraws but not ropes? Because the sheath and not the core is exposed to the UV, or something?
Take a look at this from rec.climbing. I haven't seen the original report. It may be online on the UIAA's website. If you find it, could you post a link?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
crazygirl
Feb 12, 2004, 5:12 PM
Post #45 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2003
Posts: 595
|
i have a rope thats over 6 years old, and i still use it sometimes for top roping. i'm not planning on retiring it yet, will probably just give it to some people to use for caving.
|
|
|
|
|
fracture
Feb 12, 2004, 5:32 PM
Post #46 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 1814
|
In reply to: In reply to: Not to interrupt this here shouting match ;), but.... In reply to: And I didn't even have to mention the UIAA's findings that UV radiation doesn't damage nylon ropes. That sounds like interesting stuff. Do you happen to know where I can read more about it? Why does it affect quickdraws but not ropes? Because the sheath and not the core is exposed to the UV, or something? Take a look at this from rec.climbing. I haven't seen the original report. It may be online on the UIAA's website. If you find it, could you post a link? -Jay
Sweet, with the guy's name, it was easy to find a direct quote: http://journal.uiaa.ch/download/20003.pdf.
In reply to: Ageing caused only by storage can almost be neglected compared with ageing during use. This also holds for ageing by the influence of ultraviolet radiation; ropes may lose their colour with time, but virtually no loss of strength (more precisely, no loss of energy absorption capacity over an edge) because since the beginning of the 1960’s all perlon and nylon (polyamide) has been UV-stabilised.
This pdf doesn't directly address my question about quickdraws, but it suggests that UV damage to any nylon is a non-issue. This would be pretty comforting, relating to a question I had way back when
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 12, 2004, 6:37 PM
Post #47 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: Beyond that, how am I possibly supposed to differentiate your all knowing and superior, research based conclusions from those of the other "beginners" on this board. I don't know you. I don't know your background. I don't know how much research you've done compared to everyone else who posts. Should I just assume that because you're you, you automatically know better than everyone else?
Now that, mr munckee, is a truly excellent question! (your sarcastic digs at JT notwithstanding). How does one tell good info from bad, knowledgable posters from posers?
In this, as in many things, you don't get something for nothing.
What I mean by this?
1 - Get to know the people who post here. And if you don't know them, look at their track record. Research their previous posts. If one user typically responds with off-the-cuff information, while another user clearly has a lot of personal experience, and also often has data to back up their answers - well, that tells you that they typically put more thought into it. So perhaps that person's advice should be given more weight, don't you think?!
2 - Online advice is no substitute for doing your own homework. What you'll get from here is opinions. New concepts you may never have imagined, new "information" that you would not have known. Don't get me wrong, this is incredibly valuable, but it only goes so far. Some people's "information" may be dead wrong, some people may be misunderstanding your question, etc, etc. We know you have a computer; google is a tremendously powerful tool. Use people's posts as jumping off points to get hard data. This feeds into the first point I made - if you find out that certain users are almost always backed up by the facts, then their opinions should be the first ones you look into next time, if for no other reason than to save you from going down blind alleys.
You can say many things about JT512, but he is thoughtful, knowledgeable about technical matters, and often willing to help. If that comes at a price, well, like I said, you don't get something for nothing.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Feb 12, 2004, 6:44 PM
Post #48 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: ..... masturbation, it's not exciting anymore....
Says who? :o
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Feb 12, 2004, 9:41 PM
Post #49 of 61
(3642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4694
|
Like everybody here, I'm left wondering what JT really means and thinks. Was UV not an issue? Should the rope be left IN the sunlight or in the COLD storage room?
Just kidding.
However: I have personally witnessed a rope break on a guy who was rappeling. He got a compound fracture, bone sticking out of his leg, blood, unconcious etc etc. DO NOT THINK THESE ROPES LAST FOREVER. I keep reading guys on this thread who seem to think the rope will never part. THAT IS A FALLACY, I HAVE SEEN SO WITH MY OWN EYES. I don't work for a rope or gear company BTW:-).
That being said, as I got distracted carrying him out, splinting etc etc, I didn' t take the time to check the top for sharp edges which might have been the case and the cause.
Sooooooo, to make a long story short: I agree with JT. I still TR on my 8-9 year old 11mil x 150' fatty rope which had not seen to much use (it had been a gift from a friend who had dropped a rock onto the middle of one of my other ropes cleaning a new route off). I tend to be very conservative on ropes, having seen one become 2. Just make sure it hangs clean, not over sharp edges, and I routinely use 2 steel lockers for toproping so its a real gradual radius and as an added benefit, there is no aluminum oxide (black stuff) on my hands.
So, perhaps we can return to the how touchy is JT question:?
Regards:
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
diesel___smoke
Feb 12, 2004, 10:27 PM
Post #50 of 61
(3759 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
|
In reply to: In reply to: From a constructive point of view, I believe that people would find your posts a lot more helpful if you didn't speak down to them but offered your expertise freely and openly. 8) I got news for you: I don't treat people like idiots until they demonstrate that that is what they are. Please re-read my first post to this thread: In reply to: It should be fine for TRing. Leading is questionable, due to possible loss of elasticity with time. We've debated before whether this occurs or not, with no definitive conclusion reached, IMO. So, better safe than sorry. TR only, would be my recommendation. Things went downhill from there, as the usual trash heap of uninformed "opinions" piled up. -Jay
In reply to: What's the consensus?
The original poster of this topic asked for a consensus, what type of a consensus would it be if only your opinion counts???
I just guess they're "opinions of people who didn't read or comprehend what was stated in the original post."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
