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angry
Feb 19, 2004, 3:19 AM
Post #26 of 91
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I removed the gates from all my biners, it makes clipping so much easier.
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steakboy
Feb 19, 2004, 3:25 AM
Post #27 of 91
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I don't think that some of you read my post right. I said that it was a steep climb and so we wouldn't get hurt on the falls. Even if the draw had become unclipped, the next one would have caught us and it was a clean fall. I just read in Rock and Ice about some of the editors doing a test kind of like that and taking tons of falls and I don't see you guys calling them stupid and they were doing the same thing.
I am just saying that backclipped draws don't come unclipped as often as everyone thinks, and I know first hand because of this experiment. None of the rest of you can say that.
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hawgdrver
Feb 19, 2004, 3:25 AM
Post #28 of 91
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Deleted
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okinawatricam
Feb 19, 2004, 3:29 AM
Post #29 of 91
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I too have removed all gates from my binners.
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greyicewater
Feb 19, 2004, 3:43 AM
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plus the rope looks cleaner(and by cleaner, i mean nicer) when you don't backclip
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 19, 2004, 4:25 AM
Post #31 of 91
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[quote:a3be02f5c8="steakboy"]I don't think that some of you read my post right ... I just read in Rock and Ice about some of the editors doing a test kind of like that and taking tons of falls and I don't see you guys calling them stupid and they were doing the same thing.[/quote:a3be02f5c8]
if you "just read" rock & ice and that's what you gleaned from it, perhaps your comprehension and retention skills are not as sharp as you might allow yourself to believe.
i read the same article in the mag [i:a3be02f5c8]two weeks ago[/i:a3be02f5c8] and i recall the editors were testing rope elongation characteristics, not back clipping.
"kind of like that" and "the same thing" are two very [i:a3be02f5c8]different[/i:a3be02f5c8] things.
[quote:a3be02f5c8="steakboy"]I am just saying that backclipped draws don't come unclipped as often as everyone thinks, and I know first hand because of this experiment. None of the rest of you can say that.[/quote:a3be02f5c8]
yes, i [i:a3be02f5c8]can[/i:a3be02f5c8]. your "experiment" was flawed in its methodology.
hang a standard sport draw from a bolt on a steep -- not overhanging -- route, back-clip that draw and launch yer corpus past [i:a3be02f5c8]that[/i:a3be02f5c8] bad boy a couple of times.
[i:a3be02f5c8]then[/i:a3be02f5c8] come back and post your results.
happy landings.
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sbclimber
Feb 19, 2004, 4:52 AM
Post #32 of 91
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In reply to: so what's so bad about backclipping?
absolutely nothing at all if you like getting injured or maybe dying.
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dirtineye
Feb 19, 2004, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: this guy is kidding right? someone please tell me he is kidding. he can't really be that stupid can he? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Ah, the humility of youth. As usual, young grasshopper, there is really no black or white, only shades of grey. Backclipping isn't ideal, but in an awkward situation I'll take a backclipped piece every day of the week and twice on Sunday as opposed to missing the clip and peeling. It really isn't that stupid a question. Whether this is the smartest place to ask it is another issue. Sure is fun to pile on to one side of an argument once the prevailing point of view is established though.
OK, FIRST, I'm not young.
Second, here's a shade of grey for you then: Dead vs Not dead. Oh wait, gee, that's two valued isn't it? Hey two valued logic is what all western philosophy and most of mathematics is based on. and hey woudlja lookit that, TWO VALUES ONLY, why, that coudl be BLACK OR WHITE!
Third, ANYONE with any sense at all would know how to fix a back clip before going on. Since you said PIECE, I have to assume you are not talking about sport climbing, so surely you have some extra biners and slings and surely you know how to put a second one on correctly and then remove the back clipped one.
Fourth, to quote John Macenroe, you cannot be serious!
But wait, it gets better!!!!
HE can't let bad ehough alone, he defends sheer lunacy!
In reply to: I don't think that some of you read my post right. I said that it was a steep climb and so we wouldn't get hurt on the falls. Even if the draw had become unclipped, the next one would have caught us and it was a clean fall. I just read in Rock and Ice about some of the editors doing a test kind of like that and taking tons of falls and I don't see you guys calling them stupid and they were doing the same thing. I am just saying that backclipped draws don't come unclipped as often as everyone thinks, and I know first hand because of this experiment. None of the rest of you can say that.
What part of IT ONLY HAS TO HAPPEN ONCE IF YOU ARE UNLUCKY don't you understand?
Climbsomething, you're needed. I THINK you know what I am talking about here.
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hawgdrver
Feb 19, 2004, 5:31 AM
Post #34 of 91
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dirtineye
Feb 19, 2004, 5:41 AM
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In reply to: I didn't know you posted under the name lilclimberchick. Since it's apparently impossible to have an opinion on this without it being distorted, misread and blown out of proportion, I defer to you 100%. You are right. In 20+ years of climbing, I've never made a desperation clip and had it turn out to be a backclip, I don't know how to do any of the things you described, and I'm never too pumped to take the time to fix things in the middle of a hard move. In short, I have no judgement, and it'd be wasted if I did, because this is a black and white issue. Funny though, I'm not dead yet.
Funny indeed.
So I gather that when you are too pumped to take the time to fix a back clip, you are not too pumped to go on climbing, which just adds more credence to the saying, there's nothing like bad experience coupled with luck to make one think that one knows what one is doing, when in fact, one does not.
Hey you're out of feet, you'll have to take one out if you want to keep on.
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hosh
Feb 19, 2004, 7:06 AM
Post #36 of 91
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I didn't read the whole thread on this post, so forgive me if it's been mentioned. You said that your back clipping experiment was done on an overhang? That's why you didn't get unclipped. If your'e climbing slab and the rope is back clipped, there's no where for the biner to go but against the wall and as the rope, fed through the wrong side of the gate puts pressure against the gate, it opens instead of moving (as in the case of your over hung experiment). An easier (and safer) way to test this would be to simply hold a draw (even one suspended by the top biner only) and try to unclip it across the gate in a simulated fall. Just hold the biner in one hand and pull the rope up through it. Then bring the rope down fast across the gate. It will pop open within a few tries. If you're not back clipped, the chances of the rope falling across the gate are dramatically reduced. So in short, Yes. Back clipping (though not always resulting in a bad fall or death) IS really that bad.
Note: I'm not saying that back clipping on an overhang is safe, it's just that in my humble experience, you're less likely to pop a clip like that.
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itakealot
Feb 19, 2004, 7:18 AM
Post #37 of 91
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If you keep doing the back-clipping experiment can you try a Z-clipping experiment?
Let me know when you win the Darwin Award, or atleast make sure your next of kin let's me know.
Also can you do experiments on dynamic ropes that have kinks, sheath damage, and soft core(not porn, but a rope that can be bent like paper) to dispell the fact that the rope should be thrown out.
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chosschick
Feb 19, 2004, 7:25 AM
Post #38 of 91
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In reply to: I don't think that some of you read my post right. I said that it was a steep climb and so we wouldn't get hurt on the falls. Even if the draw had become unclipped, the next one would have caught us and it was a clean fall. I just read in Rock and Ice about some of the editors doing a test kind of like that and taking tons of falls and I don't see you guys calling them stupid and they were doing the same thing. I am just saying that backclipped draws don't come unclipped as often as everyone thinks, and I know first hand because of this experiment. None of the rest of you can say that.
LMAO no your right i CANT say that...what i CAN say is that im not dumb enough to waste the money on the ropes it took to sustain your "50" falls!!
Or did you whip on the one rope as an "experiment" to see how many falls it would take before it snapped? LOL
either your not very S-M-R-T, or you're exaggerating about the amount of times you whipped on your rope... sorry but its true :D
this post is hilarious
Happy climbing
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coldclimb
Feb 19, 2004, 7:43 AM
Post #39 of 91
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Sheesh. A simple n00b posts a simple question, and gets run out of town for it, when a simple answer would suffice. It's a good thing there are more climbers out there who will actually pause and give a beginner a kind and courteous answer. It's evident that these climbers are an extremely rare breed on this site though.
Word, hawgdrver, hosh. Is it being so far north of the equator that clears your brains and allows you to post reasonably amidst chaos? Would that more users posted with as much evidence of thought as you two. The sport of climbing would be far better off if this were so.
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chosschick
Feb 19, 2004, 8:05 AM
Post #41 of 91
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coldclimb,
fair enough, i agree, he has the right to ask a question...
but back when i was a newbie, i sure didnt take it upon myself to do any funny experiments, and then insist to experienced climbers that I was smart for trying them!!
i would shut up and listen when someone was willing to teach me something.....even then, i took courses to make sure i was receiving the right info....
u do have a valid point though :D
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cclarke
Feb 19, 2004, 2:28 PM
Post #42 of 91
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Steakboy-
As you have observed, backclipping does not mean certain death. Nevertheless, it does increase the risk that your rope will unclip in a fall. It is very easy to clip correctly and, as far as I know, there is no advantage gained by backclipping. So why not do it the right way?
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sarcat
Feb 19, 2004, 3:40 PM
Post #43 of 91
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Dinking around with a rope and draw I noticed that if the draw was held out in the "open" vs. flat against a wall the rope did not come out as often from a back-clip. I think there is something to the biner being held against the rock that would make a back-clip more dangerous.
All the teachers I ever had always said "Never back-clip". I valued my life enough to take their advice. Of the swingers I've taken the ropes' always been friendly. Of course I pray to the rope gods often......
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rrrADAM
Feb 19, 2004, 4:15 PM
Post #44 of 91
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Don't feed the TROLL.
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wigglestick
Feb 19, 2004, 4:31 PM
Post #45 of 91
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It is a legitimate question. Of course all the gym rats and sport climbers are going to dogmatically claim that back clipping is extremely foolish and even posing the question means that you are obviously an idiot and shouldn't be allowed to breed. The original poster could have just as easily asked "Is dropped gear ok to use?" or "Does it really hurt your rope to step on it?" And the same people would have been declaring the poster a gumby and inadvertently reveal their own level of gumbiness.
On a scale of 1-10, where 1=forgetting to tie your shoelaces and 10=leading a route with a static line tied to your improperly double backed harness with a square knot over a pit of hungry alligators with a dozen live grenades in your backpack, using nothing but slings you have sewn yourself with your moms sewing machine and pro you put together after a trip to home depot. I give back clipping a 2 on the danger scale.
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tmcconn2
Feb 19, 2004, 4:32 PM
Post #46 of 91
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exactly, the closer you are to vertical, the better the better the chance of unclipping
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jt512
Feb 19, 2004, 6:11 PM
Post #47 of 91
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In reply to: On a scale of 1-10, where 1=forgetting to tie your shoelaces and 10=leading a route with a static line tied to your improperly double backed harness with a square knot over a pit of hungry alligators with a dozen live grenades in your backpack, using nothing but slings you have sewn yourself with your moms sewing machine and pro you put together after a trip to home depot. I give back clipping a 2 on the danger scale.
And you'd be dead wrong. I've seen backclips that would almost certainly have become unclipped had the leader fallen. In fact, I once saw four consecutive bolts backclipped. The bolts were vertically aligned, and I would have been surprised if all of them would not have unclipped had the leader fallen. As others have pointed out, the original experiment (if it was really carried out) was not representative. The danger was reduced because the draws were hanging away from the wall. The 95% risk limits of 0 - 7% of unclipping, nicely calculated by someone earlier, greatly underestimates the true risk. When climbing directly above a backclipped bolt using a modern sport draw with a bent-gate biner on the rope end, there'd be greater than 50% chance of unclipping, if the route were less steep.
To the pos[t]er who will climb above a backclipped piece when he's too pumped to fix the clip, I say this: you are a taking a foolish risk. If you are too pumped to fix the clip, then you might also fall on that back-clipped piece before getting your next piece clipped. I have very few absolute rules when I climb, but one of them is that I never climb past a back-clipped piece. I rarely backclip, but if I do, I fix the clip before moving on. If that means I have to hang and sacrifice an onsight or a redpoint, sobeit. The risk of climbing above a backclipped piece is just too great.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Feb 19, 2004, 7:02 PM
Post #48 of 91
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In reply to: It is a legitimate question. Of course all the gym rats and sport climbers are going to dogmatically claim that back clipping is extremely foolish and even posing the question means that you are obviously an idiot and shouldn't be allowed to breed. The original poster could have just as easily asked "Is dropped gear ok to use?" or "Does it really hurt your rope to step on it?" And the same people would have been declaring the poster a gumby and inadvertently reveal their own level of gumbiness. .
If you really think back clipping is in the same league with stepping on rope and using dropped gear, you are as hopeless as the original poster andn the other defenders of back clipping.
By the way, yo ucan call me a gumbie all you want, I even answer to SUPERGUMBIEWANNABE, but when you get done your ideas about back clipping will still be dead wrong.
Funny how you are calling the anti-back clippers gym climbers and sport climbers, I hvae at least ten friends wiht over 25 years climbing experience each, who would all fix a back clip and would have a hard time thinking anyone defending back clipping is being serious. I have never seen or heard any of the good climbers I know eihter back clip and fail to fix it before moving on, nor do they allow the leader to do so when they are belaying. IT's a stupid, bad thing to do, PERIOD.
Every once in a while an idea comes up that is sooo bad, it needs a pounding. This is one of those ideas.
There's room on the rail for one more...
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dbarandiaran
Feb 19, 2004, 7:19 PM
Post #49 of 91
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In reply to: I removed the gates from all my biners, it makes clipping so much easier.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I love this site, it is always good for a laugh or two :)
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wigglestick
Feb 19, 2004, 7:48 PM
Post #50 of 91
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Back clipping is a issue for primarily sport climbers and gym climbers. Why? Sport climbers typically are the ones who use stiff slings and bent gate biners. The same reason for gym climbers with the addition of the liability concerns. Trad climbers still have to be concerned about it but they usually have much bigger issues to worry about. Funny how nobody suggests using different equipment instead of further propagating mis-information. If I am climbing with ovals and 24" open slings how much should I worry about back clipping? Or should I be thinking about something else?
This issue isn't so bad that it needs a pounding. It needs to be discussed so that people understand the real issue and what the true dangers are.
Back clipping is bad. Don't do it. The rope can come unclipped. Especially if you are using stiff quickdraws and bentgate biners and are climbing on steep, but not too steep rock and are directly above the piece. There are also two ways to back clip. The bad way and the not so bad way. Do you know the difference?
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