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itakealot
Feb 29, 2004, 4:20 AM
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Someone probably put a lot of work in putting a route up, and in their wishful thinking, a sketchy hand hold for clipping a bolt has broken off. The climb is now harder, but there is no good stance for clipping, and I suppose if I climber 5.12 this wouldn't be an issue. If for some unforeseen reason a climber sketches at the clip, they will definitely crater. So should the route be upgraded, even though the difficulty of the climb hasn't changed because of the sketchy clip? Or does the guy who jacked up the climb fix it?
PS. it would be great if route setters replied to this post. But I don't mind sifting through the BS, since it gives me something to look forward to reading on rainy days.
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tenn_dawg
Feb 29, 2004, 5:30 AM
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Route setters? Do you mean the people who established the route?
You know, this is tricky. I know of a few holds that have been glued back into place in East Tennesse. I'm not sure how this would fly in SoCal though.
It usually isn't that difficult to track down the FAist of a route if you put in a little effort. The first thing I would try and do is contact them. Short of that, find a couple of your local "old guys" and ask them for advice.
This is largely a local issue, and I don't feel comfortable telling you from a thousand miles away to glue it back.
If it was me, however, I'd go buy some epoxy.
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roughster
Feb 29, 2004, 5:34 AM
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If you know the route setter ask them. If you don't know specifically as "a local developer" on what to do. If you don't know any local developers, try to contact one about it. At the bare minimum they can guide you on how to approach the sitaution, whether it be gluing or just letting the grade be harder. A lot depends on the area and the route.
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kalcario
Feb 29, 2004, 5:43 AM
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I'm guessing it ain't a question of buying some epoxy; the hold disintegrated when it broke, correct?
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itakealot
Feb 29, 2004, 5:44 AM
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Anywhere else on the route, I could have claimed a FA on the new rating (tongue in cheek, I know it does not work like that).
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bvb
Feb 29, 2004, 5:53 AM
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In reply to: Route setters? Do you mean the people who established the route?
i though "route setters" were people who twisted plastic is stuffy gyms. the one good thing i got to say about gyms though -- man, buffed out betties in spaghetti strap tops that climb better than you. oh baby.
that's sweet. don't get no betta dan dat.
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scubasnyder
Feb 29, 2004, 6:16 AM
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I would let it be, someone climb it the way it is most likely
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innominato
Feb 29, 2004, 6:32 AM
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Pick up the prettiest rock you can find in the talus field beneath the route and glue it on right at the clip. :twisted:
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itakealot
Feb 29, 2004, 3:24 PM
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In reply to: I'm guessing it ain't a question of buying some epoxy; the hold disintegrated when it broke, correct?
disinigrated as it hit the ground. It was a key hold to clip off of, but since the rating is moderate 5.10a/b, it is likely another moderate climber may do the route and the sketch possibilty while pulling the rope up is high.
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vulgarian
Feb 29, 2004, 3:55 PM
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In my humble opinion. The route is a different route now. I would never glue a hold back on simply because the hold was sketchy to begin with and its coming off was inevitable. Take what the rock gives you - otherwise it's tantamount to gym climbing.
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 29, 2004, 5:21 PM
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Move the bolt to a better spot?
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couloir
Feb 29, 2004, 5:37 PM
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no gluing!
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fredbob
Feb 29, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: Move the bolt to a better spot?
This is the first sensible advice given. Why would someone consider modifying the rock FIRST, rather than just moving the bolt (which is an artificial thing anyway)? Since the route is still climbable, there is no reason to do anything to the rock.
Seems to be a case where the distinction between climbing plastic and climbing real rock has been lost. But then again, if this is some New Jack classic, the distinction was lost long ago.
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hardmanknott
Feb 29, 2004, 7:33 PM
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Find someone strong enough to redpoint the route as is.
If it doesn't go, it doesn't go.
Don't bring the rock down to your level.
TIA,
Hardman Knott
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nagatana
Feb 29, 2004, 7:45 PM
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In reply to: Take what the rock gives you - otherwise it's tantamount to gym climbing.
My sentiments exactly. Erosion happens, trees get pulled out, routes change; accept that. This isn't a controlled environment like a gym, and the broken hold's not a spinner.
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laxclimber
Feb 29, 2004, 8:13 PM
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There is a boulder in flagstaff, CO that has a problem called "Polling the Pebble" The crux move was topping out while cranking on a tiny pebble. The pebble has since broken off, but the route name has remained the same. The rating may be adjusted accordingly, but holds should never be glued back. Gluing is never ethical, it ruins the purity of the line, and may ruin the aesthetics as well.
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curt
Mar 1, 2004, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: There is a boulder in flagstaff, CO that has a problem called "Polling the Pebble" The crux move was topping out while cranking on a tiny pebble. The pebble has since broken off, but the route name has remained the same. The rating may be adjusted accordingly, but holds should never be glued back. Gluing is never ethical, it ruins the purity of the line, and may ruin the aesthetics as well.
Sort of. I've done that problem and the Poling Pebble route used to have a pebble that was crimped to accomplish the crux move. The pebble later fell out, but left a small pocket--that was just about the same difficulty to use as the pebble was. So, in that particular case the grade of the problem didn't change.
Curt
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sed
Mar 1, 2004, 4:35 AM
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From reading the original post it sounds like the bolt is the problem, not the missing hold. Make locals aware of the difficulty change and locate the person(s) who put the route up, let them know the clip is sketchy and see what they think.
S
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mreardon
Mar 2, 2004, 12:41 AM
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If you choose to glue the hold back on, or replace it through chipping, to restore the route back to it's absolutely perfect glory, make sure to go and clean all the holds of all chalk residue and skin grafts, and to replace all the shrubbery and dirt that has been moved about from the doubtless thousands of people that have come by to worship that route because of course no one would want to do a route that was remotely different from what the first ascent party went through.
Or you could leave it and wait for someone stronger.
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rngrchad
Mar 2, 2004, 1:29 AM
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I just recently had the unfortunate experience of breaking a crux-type hold off of a great boulder problem. It just sheared off right in my hand. What a terrible feeling to know it was my fault! I felt awful. If I would have been using proper form during the climb, the hold would never have broke because rather than supporting my whole body with one arm, I would have supported it with three other appendages. Damn, hope my buddy who created the route doesn't find out it was me :shock:
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boulderqt
Mar 2, 2004, 2:05 AM
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Glue a hold back on :roll: that's just crazy let it be somebody else will come along that can climb it the way it is now. sh!t happens holds pull off thats life live with it.
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petro
Mar 2, 2004, 3:14 AM
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Pull down not out. What the heck were you thinking?
:P
Nah man, don't worry, don't glue, it's all good. Rocks break, it's part of the game.
It's a climber's job to sum up the situation, if it is sketchy, and you really, seriously fear decking, don't pull it. We've all backed off climbs. If you don't back off, it's just darwinism in full effect.
If it's really that bad, find the FA'ist, and put in a new bolt. Or don't, climb it on gear and spray, then chop the bolts. That will protect all the sissy boys and girls.
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Move the bolt to a better spot? This is the first sensible advice given. Why would someone consider modifying the rock FIRST, rather than just moving the bolt (which is an artificial thing anyway)?
Let's face it. If this is a typical SoCal sport route, then the rock has been modified already, through extensive cleaning, just to make it climbable. Gluing the hold back on is negligible modification in light of what probably had to have been done just to get the rock solid enough to climb on. Apparently, the hold disintegrated, so this is now a general discussion about gluing, since it is not an option for the hold in question.
Some SoCal sport routes are so chossy, that if key broken holds aren't replaced, your beta has to change every other time you climb the route. It is nice to be able to repeat the route you spent a month figuring out how to do year after year, rather than constantly having to be working out new sequences as it "evolves." Frankly, I have trouble understanding why pulling off a hold that nature put on the rock is not considered modification, but gluing back on what nature put there in the first place, is. If anything, it seems like it should be the other way around.
-Jay
P.S. What route was it?
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chopper
Mar 2, 2004, 3:54 AM
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wow, you mean theres a climb out there now with a sketchy clip??? oh dear what will we ever do? maybe we should put those little warning labels next to the bolts like all the gear we buy.
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grayhghost
Mar 2, 2004, 4:05 AM
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you should try to keep the route in the same condition as when the first ascencionist did it. Is this not what is meant when we say to do the route in the same or better style as when the first ascensionist did it? So if the hold broke when it hit the ground you should drill a hold equal to what the original felt like. I have done this on numerous routes which I have established when I come back to an old route and find a hold has broken. Why make people feel unsafe at a clip that their predisesors felt safe at?
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