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cragmasterp
Mar 2, 2004, 4:23 AM
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Glueing is for wankers :!:
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 4:32 AM
Post #27 of 66
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In reply to: Glueing is for wankers :!:
As is spelling, apparently.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 2, 2004, 4:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Move the bolt to a better spot? This is the first sensible advice given. Why would someone consider modifying the rock FIRST, rather than just moving the bolt (which is an artificial thing anyway)? Let's face it. If this is a typical SoCal sport route, then the rock has been modified already, through extensive cleaning, just to make it climbable. Gluing the hold back on is negligible modification in light of what probably had to have been done just to get the rock solid enough to climb on. Apparently, the hold disintegrated, so this is now a general discussion about gluing, since it is not an option for the hold in question. Some SoCal sport routes are so chossy, that if key broken holds aren't replaced, your beta has to change every other time you climb the route. It is nice to be able to repeat the route you spent a month figuring out how to do year after year, rather than constantly having to be working out new sequences as it "evolves." Frankly, I have trouble understanding why pulling off a hold that nature put on the rock is not considered modification, but gluing back on what nature put there in the first place, is. If anything, it seems like it should be the other way around. -Jay P.S. What route was it?
In my experience gluing holds back on does not work, and in most cases, it just makes a mess.
If you are worried about a key hold coming off the trick is to glue it neatly (where you don't notice it unless you are specifically looking for it) before it breaks off. (this usually just postpones the hold coming off)
If you don't understand the difference between natural erosive processes and hold manufacturing, then I feel sorry for you.
As far as the people who think a line of bolts is the route as opposed to the holds. Please don't put up any routes.
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travelin_light
Mar 2, 2004, 4:59 AM
Post #29 of 66
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oo, oo what route was it? tell me! tell me! :P
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itakealot
Mar 2, 2004, 5:55 AM
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the route has no name in a no named area in NJC.
After reading all the posts, I realize that there are other routes that have just as much crater potential and I just felt bad that I messed up the the second clip stance by maybe yarding too hard. I have a history of destroying routes (old 5.10a at Echo which is now a freaky 10.c).
For the So Cal climbers who need to know, the area is across from the Predator Wall on the formation past the Dude Ranch. The climb is on the lower formation that has a 5.8/5.9/5.10-/and the previous rated 5.10- all in a row with the 5.8 on an arete.
I am glad no one knows about this area since last weekend there must have been 30 climbers all over the main area.
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 6:13 AM
Post #31 of 66
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In reply to: If you don't understand the difference between natural erosive processes and hold manufacturing, then I feel sorry for you.
If you don't know the difference between pulling off a hold during a contrived human exploitation of nature, and a natural erosive process, then I feel sorry for you!
-Jay
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timstich
Mar 2, 2004, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: Pick up the prettiest rock you can find in the talus field beneath the route and glue it on right at the clip. :twisted:
Ha ha ha! But of course, point well made. When the hold breaks, that's all they wrote. Either climb it that way or pass it on by.
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 6:40 AM
Post #33 of 66
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In reply to: For the So Cal climbers who need to know, the area is across from the Predator Wall on the formation past the Dude Ranch. The climb is on the lower formation that has a 5.8/5.9/5.10-/and the previous rated 5.10- all in a row with the 5.8 on an arete.
If this is the area I am thinking of, then the routes Still Have a Lot of Cleaning Up To Do, and I would be unlikely to glue any holds back on. I'd consider any ratings in that area tentative at this point.
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Mar 2, 2004, 7:10 AM
Post #34 of 66
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In reply to: If you don't know the difference between pulling off a hold during a contrived human exploitation of nature, and a natural erosive process, then I feel sorry for you! -Jay
In my mind pulling off holds while climbing is a natural erosive process.
Not wanting to have to learn new beta as a justification for gluing is a new one to me, and the fact that sport climbing can tend to be contrived doesn't work as a justification for chiseling or gluing either.
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overlord
Mar 2, 2004, 8:22 AM
Post #35 of 66
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it a local issue.
but if the route wasnt a mega classic, i would say just leave it the way it is and post some notice about key hold breaking.
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rockprodigy
Mar 2, 2004, 3:53 PM
Post #36 of 66
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In reply to: Some SoCal sport routes are so chossy, that if key broken holds aren't replaced, your beta has to change every other time you climb the route. It is nice to be able to repeat the route you spent a month figuring out how to do year after year, rather than constantly having to be working out new sequences as it "evolves."
Let me start by saying I respect you Jay, as a climber, and a skilled debater, but this is either the dumbest or funniest (I can't decide) thing I've read in a while.
"Oh, woe is me! I must work out new beta on my 10a warmup...'tis it nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of this outrageous fortune
or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing glue them?"
Obviously the values at your local crags differ from mine, but it still sounds ridiculous to resort to gluing merely because it is a hassle to learn new beta. If it were me, I would think of it as a bonus because I would have a new route to try...isn't that why we go roadtripping?
Move the bolt if necessary, but don't glue!
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dee
Mar 2, 2004, 4:59 PM
Post #37 of 66
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No gluing, no chipping, no hold modifications of any type. Erosion is part of the process, live with it.
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 9:00 PM
Post #38 of 66
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In reply to: Move the bolt if necessary, but don't glue!
Actually, I think this is the funniest response. Do more damage to the rock, rather than repair the damage already done.
-Jay
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jt512
Mar 2, 2004, 9:12 PM
Post #39 of 66
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In reply to: In reply to: If you don't know the difference between pulling off a hold during a contrived human exploitation of nature, and a natural erosive process, then I feel sorry for you! -Jay In my mind pulling off holds while climbing is a natural erosive process
How can pulling off holds while sport climbing be a natural process when sport climbing itself is not a natural process. It is purely a recreational activity, which, at best, greatly accelerates a natural erosive process. Pulling a hold off the rock that wouldn't come off for another 100 years had nobody climbed it is destructive. I cannot fathom why anybody would object to gluing it neatly back into place, except for an antiquated kneejerk reaction to a theoretical principle that has been quitely, but consistently, violated since practically the inception of the sport. Nobody has stated a single rational reason why gluing a broken hold back into place is wrong. Just the usual mindless repetition of the Gluing is Bad mantra.
-Jay
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caughtinside
Mar 2, 2004, 9:44 PM
Post #40 of 66
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In reply to: . Nobody has stated a single rational reason why gluing a broken hold back into place is wrong. Just the usual mindless repetition of the Gluing is Bad mantra.
heh heh. So true. But isn't that the usual way of things around here? So many RC.com mantras... Use Camalots and Aliens. Retire a biner after you drop it. Wait for someone stronger to climb it. Gluing is Bad. Gluing is Baaad. Gluing is Baaaaaaad!
:P
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mreardon
Mar 3, 2004, 12:26 AM
Post #41 of 66
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In reply to: It is purely a recreational activity.... Nobody has stated a single rational reason why gluing a broken hold back into place is wrong. Just the usual mindless repetition of the Gluing is Bad mantra. -Jay
It all comes down to intent and what you get out of climbing. Based on what you've said, climbing for you is merely a recreational sport akin to playing softball with the local kids. You want complete safety. You don't want to think too hard (heaven forbid you learn new beta), and you don't want to learn new movements. You'd be great at marathoning, just have to remember left foot, right foot, and repeat "run faster" with each step. :D
With that kind of mentality, then you're right, glue away, never allow for change. Better yet, bring out your latest set of Nicros and put them on the rock so that the holds never change whatsoever. If that's the local ethics, then so be it, but those ethics spill over to other areas which is why people trash on glue so badly.
Me, I'm a bit different and can think of a few reasons why I don't like glue:
1. I like challenges and hate repetition. If a hold breaks on a route I've done, it's just setting me up for a new challenge. Doing the same route over and over doesn't make you a better climber, it merely makes you better on that climb.
2. Accept life's changes. A hold breaking means that I have to accept that nothing in life remains the same. Life is about change and when things happen unexpectedly, it allows me to accept that more readily in my life.
3. The rock will always break. It may take longer (decades or longer in some cases), but at some point, the rock was going to break anyways. It's merely vanity to pretend that you can stop that from happening. Even with the glue, it will just break again in the future. For every glue-on placed, I can give you an example of a glue-on that broke.
4. It keeps me humble. No matter how strong I get, the rock will always be stronger, and just maybe my daughter will surpass the old man on one of these new routes.
5. Unless the route is such an absolute classic that people from around the world come at every chance and wait in line for hours just to have the honor of touching it.... Oh wait, there are no routes in the world worthy of that status. I can't think of the last time someone said, "I can't wait to climb this route, it has the coolest glue-on hold I've ever touched..."
6. Glue is always uglier than rock. I came to visit nature, not the remains of a dead horse pulverized for your sanitation.
7. I'm not that vain. I like looking in a mirror as much as the next person, but in the end, I'm not such a classic person that everyone will stare in awe. Routes are the same. A hold breaks, oh well, get over it and move on.
8. A lasting impression. Glue always signifies that the route setter was too weak for momma nature and too childish to let someone else stronger send it in the future.
9. It smells. Even dry glue baking in the sun has a distinct odor, but then again, I'm not around it as often as others so maybe I'm sensitive to it.
I'd go on, but then I'd just be giving the same old mantra of "people who glue are bringing the rock down to their childish level" mantra.
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mreardon
Mar 3, 2004, 12:34 AM
Post #42 of 66
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In reply to: So many RC.com mantras... Use Camalots and Aliens. Retire a biner after you drop it. Wait for someone stronger to climb it. Gluing is Bad. Gluing is Baaad. Gluing is Baaaaaaad! :P
You're right. Never use Camelots and Aliens, just solo the damn thing, or jam those quickdraws into the cracks. And never retire a 'biner after it's been dropped, it's gotta' still be good. Or isn't it this the forum that's constantly spouting about cracks and broken 'biners, and weight stress ratios, blah blah blah. And of course, one should never wait for someone stronger to do a route, because only you are good enough by which all of us shall worship to your wonderfulness. Again, isn't this the forum that sprays non-stop about Sharma or some other idol who pulled a booger sized hold and created a 5.15?
It's all a bit silly.
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curt
Mar 3, 2004, 2:16 AM
Post #43 of 66
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Its a sport route, at NJC no less. Just drill a new hold--who cares? :lol:
Curt
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mreardon
Mar 3, 2004, 2:19 AM
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In reply to: Its a sport route, at NJC no less. Just drill a new hold--who cares? :lol: Curt
This is all about a hold that broke at NJC? OMFG! Forget everything I wrote. Just pick up any old piece of shingle or spring from an old burnt mattress lying around in the fire pit and bolt it to the wall. Hell, I'll even supply some old holds from the home gym if you need it.
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jt512
Mar 3, 2004, 2:30 AM
Post #45 of 66
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In reply to: Its a sport route, at NJC no less...who cares? :lol:
In reply to: This is all about a hold that broke at NJC? OMFG! Forget everything I wrote.
The trad boys are starting to get it. My work here is nearly complete.
-Jay
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scottcody
Mar 3, 2004, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: If for some unforeseen reason a climber sketches at the clip, they will definitely crater.
"Climbing is inherintly dangerous... bla bla bla"
pull enough rope out and you'll always crater.
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timstich
Mar 3, 2004, 4:32 AM
Post #47 of 66
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In reply to: ... 8. A lasting impression. Glue always signifies that the route setter was too weak for momma nature and too childish to let someone else stronger send it in the future. ...
A hold broke off on an Austin Greenbelt climb called Gros Ventre years ago. When I gave it a go, I had a hell of a time even getting started on the route. But I would say it's even more fun now given the difficulty. Last time I climbed it I must have gotten eight muscle pulls! I guess we could glue the old hold back, but it kind of gets lost in all the other rocks down there.
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mreardon
Mar 3, 2004, 4:38 AM
Post #48 of 66
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In reply to: The trad boys are starting to get it. My work here is nearly complete. -Jay
I'm a trad boy? Now wait a minute, before you go slapping a label on me, don't go thinking I haven't done my fair share of clipping bolts. Granted, I haven't been to Williamson in a couple years (can remember working with Mireles and Leventhal on the London Wall) and New Jack even longer (sent Hallraker on my second go)... Damn, maybe I am turning into a trad boy. :wink:
Someday I'll have to try it out again. Someday....
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drkodos
Mar 3, 2004, 4:43 AM
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My falls still go to 11.
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timstich
Mar 3, 2004, 4:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The trad boys are starting to get it. My work here is nearly complete. -Jay I'm a trad boy? Now wait a minute, before you go slapping a label on me, don't go thinking I haven't done my fair share of clipping bolts...
Yeah, Jay. My example was a sport route. Ha ha ha! Don't let him get to you, Mike. He's way too proud of that hand dressed wet fly he made for his reel.
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