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blueeyedclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 2:32 PM
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I was in the gym yesterday after climbing the day before, doing some easy routes and then bouldering a little. It was pretty crowded and there seem to be a lot of new climbers in(which i think is great). I was just watching a few of them and in particular this girl and guy. The girl was belaying and the guy was about half way up the route when he fell. She initially caught him but her hand was too close to the belay device which pinched her, and she took her hand off the rope and dropped her partner. He wasn't hurt, but got up rather stunned, with a distrustful look on him face. The girl seemed embarrased (rightly so).
A few minutes later, another girl belaying another guy; the girl was not anchored in and when the guy fell, lifted her up about 3-4 feet in the air. She held on but it knocked her off balance and could have easily shook her up enough to make her let go.
Does the gym make people feel a little too safe? Do people think they can just learn as they go?
A fall from any height can cause injury or worse. So please, everyone, Be safe, especially in the gym, where you develop your habits, hoping to transfer them outside. Bad habits are easy to pick up and hard to break.
Josh
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dontfall
Feb 23, 2004, 2:43 PM
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dontfall moved this thread from General to Injuries & Accidents.
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j_ung
Feb 23, 2004, 3:03 PM
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I sometimes tell newer climbers in the gym that an indoor fall hurts just as bad, physically, as an outdoor fall and even worse for your ego.
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pawilkes
Feb 23, 2004, 3:14 PM
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i know some experienced climbers that just happened to be kinda dumb asses that, when put together, resulted in a 30 foot ground fall the gym. thats what you get for inattentive belaying. scares me to climb with them again.
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climbersoze
Feb 23, 2004, 3:20 PM
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Just posted a little story about knocking into my belayer in another thread.. but it was basically me outweighing a belyar and I fell... she flew through the air , and we ended up banging into each other a few times... funny... but stupid...
Gyms are a great place to learn and/or maintain... I cant tell you how many times I have heard people say "Oh, I rock climb... I have been the the gym...". Nothing on gym climbers, but the gym is gonna be where the newbies go, and where inexperience lies, you have potential disaster... its a fact of life.
It is the responsibility of those experienced to help others out when we see a situation that is usafe (duh) or when we recognize that a person is unsure of themselves, or just plain don't know wtf is going on.
Of course.. do it tactfully... don't be an elitist prick.. thats what gives climbers a bad name. Yeah it gets old having to answer the same question over and over again... but ya know what... deal with it. You picked a hobby/sport/lifestyle that others "wish" the could emulate... you chose to be a mentor in that respect... use your power wisely :twisted:
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 23, 2004, 3:26 PM
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I agree climbersoze, the more experienced, the more you should be helping newer climbers out. When i intially was watchng them, I didn't see anything unsafe, until he was on the ground. I didn't want to add insult to injury and i think the lesson was learned. She obviously felt bad and was embarrased. Neither of them looked around to see if anyone was watching. I think they were hoping that no one saw it.
Josh
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vegastradguy
Feb 23, 2004, 3:36 PM
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This is why gyms have grigri's. Yes, you need to learn how to use them correctly, but when used correctly, they are as safe as it gets. It's also why insurance companies give gyms a nice break if they use only grigri's.
its also another reason that gyms should give a real belay class and lesson, not just an explanation.
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wildduck
Feb 23, 2004, 4:07 PM
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yeah.. same thing happened to me too...
this belayer.. she didn't hold tight enough and when i fell, she wasn't attentive and the rope burnt right through her hands.. she let go and i fell.. i wasn't hurt though... but she was. It was a tough lesson for her to learn and i was lucky. I didn't get her to belay me anymore. Ever. I only get trusted belayers now.
Imagine if i was outdoors... i'd be 6 feet under..
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gblauer
Moderator
Feb 23, 2004, 4:19 PM
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Our gym requires all new climbers to take a belay lesson and pass a belay test. It also requires a refresher upon return.
Interestingly, most accidents in our gym seem to happen to the more expereinced climbers. Most recently an older, experienced climber failed to tie in and fell 30 feet. Result: 2 broken ankles and a broken vertebra.
No matter where you climb...Always be aware of what you are doing.
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caughtinside
Feb 23, 2004, 5:04 PM
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Hmm, the only reason I still go to the gym is so I can be reckless and unsafe in a friendly, controlled environment.
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dynoclimber
Feb 24, 2004, 4:25 PM
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Its fun watching newbies climb in the gym....they hit the ground a lot :lol: :lol:
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elcommunisto
Feb 25, 2004, 12:36 PM
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I'm a climbing newbie, and I've only hit the ground once. It was my own fault (back-clipped), and a lesson learned.
Although being a gym rat myself (only until this spring/summer!), I have noticed a big difference in the attitude between gym and outdoor climbers. The gym rats tend to be very stuck up, very pretentious, and often hostile towards other climbers, especially new ones. They seem to have this "What are you doing in my gym" attutide going.
The outside climbers, are exactly the opposite. They are friendly, outgoing, humble and very nice to newcomers. The first time I was there, I went alone, and had to beg belays from people. A gym rat gave me one, and was talking to his buddy about how I sucked. Later, an outside climber belayed me, and was very helpful. He offered tips and advice, and was very cool.
Yeah. I like to ramble. :)
EC
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oldsalt
Feb 25, 2004, 12:54 PM
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Climbers, being people, display the full range of human foibles. My guess is that some hang at the gym because they failed to become icons at the bowling alley or rollerdrome. Others really care about their fellows and don't want to see them (or their sport) hurt.
You can't want to be cool, and be cool at the same time.
I started climbing to celebrate losing 50 pounds, and now I can't stop thinking about my next climb.
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sarcat
Mar 2, 2004, 3:42 PM
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Last time at the local gym I gave advice to someone I didn't know and pretty much got my head ripped off. Maybe my attitude sucked because of how beligerent and arrogent he was and I deserved it.
Regarless I'm now more reserved with my advice. Who am I to tell a noob or boob anything? After all they did sign a release waiver so everything will be alright ... right?
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rory
Mar 8, 2004, 4:01 AM
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My belayer did that exact same thing to me a few weeks ago. The thing is, everyone will drop someone, or be dropped themselves. Chalk it up to a learning experience. If no one got hurt, then even better. Just take what you can from the experience, and move on. If someone drops you, or has some kind problem while belaying, then help that person learn from their mistakes so that hopefully it won't happen again. Experienced climbers have a greater responsibility to the climbing community, to share that experience with new climbers. Teaching someone renforces the knowledge for you too. 8)
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karmaklimber
Mar 8, 2004, 5:24 AM
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In reply to: A fall from any height can cause injury or worse.
True; I've seen people slip off a bouldering problem with their feet about waist height from the ground and sprain ankles.
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coldclimb
Mar 8, 2004, 6:55 AM
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Only time I was ever dropped in the gym was when the lead rope was four feet too short for the lower-out. Unexpected, as the belayer was watching me, but at least it was just a tiny fall onto pads. ;) Never have dropped anyone yet.
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metrogroaz
Mar 8, 2004, 8:54 AM
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huh, i feel embarassed after all the posts, but i am one of the expierenced climbers who thinks being in the gym makes it alright to be more lax in your climbing ways. Just today i took a big fall bouldering from the wall, and landed on my side, (ps i still have a torn ligament and shouldnt be climbing according to doctor) also while climbing the roped climbs, i climbed with out waiting for slack to get taken, and took a few nice swings where my head got close to hitting the wall. I wish the lead wall was ready at PRG. I defintely agree that the gyms feel safer, and i realize that i need to do less goofing off and less throwing chalk at people on routes, and at least be more safe. good thought for the post, made me think and probaly adjust my ways.
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markc
Mar 10, 2004, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: My belayer did that exact same thing to me a few weeks ago. The thing is, everyone will drop someone, or be dropped themselves. Chalk it up to a learning experience. If no one got hurt, then even better. Just take what you can from the experience, and move on. If someone drops you, or has some kind problem while belaying, then help that person learn from their mistakes so that hopefully it won't happen again. Experienced climbers have a greater responsibility to the climbing community, to share that experience with new climbers. Teaching someone renforces the knowledge for you too. 8)
Sorry, I strongly disagree with almost everything you just said. Everyone will drop someone sometime, so take your lumps and chalk it up to a learning experience? I'm not a frigging human pinata. Dropping someone is not a requirement for belaying, or something to be accepted lightly. If someone drops me, they have failed a vital role as a belayer. If I am still alive, they have lost quite a bit of my trust.
I've had two situations where my belayer let me down. One was a new climber at the gym who dropped me several feet while lowering and never belayed me again. The other time I fell while TRing an overhang. My friend lowered me onto rocky ground while I was still penduluming, badly spraining my ankle. I had a very serious conversation with him.
The converse: A friend of mine inadvertently dislodged a rock midway up a route. His belayer, lying on his back getting some sun, locked him off and rolled out of the way. He maintained the belay the whole time in a situation where he could have been injured. That's my type of partner, any day of the week.
As far as the gym goes, I strive to be more careful in the gym than outside. The concentration of people, the number of new climbers in a loud and distracting environment, it makes for a dangerous scene. When people tell me indoor climbing is safer, I question if they know much about climbing. Shredded car tire does not equal safe.
2¢,
mark
(Edited because symbol for does not equal did not translate.)
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rory
Mar 11, 2004, 4:19 AM
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I'm not saying that you should expect to get dropped, but it can and probably will. Stuff happens, that is the nature of the sport, there are inherent dangers. Also, there are circumstances that may not entirely be the bealyer's fault. With my belayer, there were a few things that contributed to me decking out, tangled rope, wrong belay devise for the bealyer (not enough friction on the rope), looked away for a brief moment. While my ground fall was preventable, no one was injured, my belayer learned from the experience, and subsequently, the gym is now more careful. Maybe I'm just too laid back about the whole thing, but I see it as a growth experience for all of the parties involved.
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jefferson
Mar 11, 2004, 4:51 AM
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I agree with whoever suggested using a gri-gri...they are very easy to use on TR or lead belay, and are infinitely safer. Another good tip would be never to become the kind of moron who is so over-confident they would belay from their back while getting a tan!
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hardmanknott
Mar 11, 2004, 6:27 AM
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In reply to: Get off of your high horse. I think if more climbers would pay attention to their own climbing and less to what everyone else was doing, EVERYONE would be happier. Some climbers may be unsafe, but do you try to pull over every unsafe driver you see? Anyways, I'm sorry for ranting, but critical climbers are my biggest pet peeve. I understand your desire for ppl to be safe, but try to give everyone a little space.
Go ahead and ride that horse--the higher the better.
Someone might actually thank you for encroaching on their "space".
I have on many occasions prevented many near disasters;
unfortunately I was not around to meddle in my friend's business:
http://www.oceandave.com/Alienleg.jpg
I sincerely hope you aren't unlucky enough to be around when
something like this happens while you're "minding your own business"...
Hardman Knott
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socalclimber
Mar 11, 2004, 12:15 PM
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In reply to: Get off of your high horse. I think if more climbers would pay attention to their own climbing and less to what everyone else was doing, EVERYONE would be happier.
Hmmm... While I agree that running around sticking your nose into everyones business is poor form, completely ignoring very dangerous situations is no better. It's a judgement call. It's all in the approach. I routinely see scary things down here in Josh all the time. Sometimes I make a comment, sometimes I don't. Usually I strike up a friendly conversation, when I see they are comfortable with me, I offer friendly advice like, "ya know, there is a better safer way to build that anchor, I'd be happy to show you if you like". This approach works just fine.
Remember this, if you ignore a blatantly dangerous situation, and somebody gets hurt, you are likely to get to help out during the rescue, or you could just walk away.
In reply to: I agree with whoever suggested using a gri-gri...they are very easy to use on TR or lead belay, and are infinitely safer.
This is absolutely incorrect. No belay device is safe in unskilled hands. Period. The only reason gri gri's are used in the gym is because some fool convinced the insuruance companies they are "safe". Plenty of people get dropped by gri gri's. What you also get is a ton of Gymbies flocking to the crags who don't know how to belay properly with an ATC. There are no unsafe belay devices that are commercialy available that I have seen. Blaming accidents on the device is pure bullsh$t. Your belay device is only as safe as the person who uses it. Learn how to belay properly, pay attention and you won't drop people.
Robert
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lqdslvr
Mar 11, 2004, 1:54 PM
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As socalclimber noted, you can be dropped while being belayed from a grigri as well. My wife and I learned in a gym that only used grigri's (of so many years ago). One day she went to lower me and had a brain lock. She opened the grigri full blast and I fell about 6 feet, which happened to be all the way to the ground. I was unhurt and she was embarrassed, but it drove home that even a grigri can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
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