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jt512
Mar 9, 2004, 3:31 AM
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In reply to: So it rebuilds joint tissue or that?
Yes, and it is a mild anti-inflammatory. Whether it is helpful for tendon and ligament injuries is unknown.
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dlintz
Mar 9, 2004, 4:32 AM
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In reply to: Interesting comments - I am also a veterinary surgeon and I have yet to see any convinving data published about animals (in English). If you have any reference that show that chondroitin sulphate and glucosamine are effective I would be interested. I work in a large referral hospital in the UK and myself and my collegues are not convinced. Much of the evidence for there effectiveness in animals is ancedotal and I am not aware of any well design studies that have been performed to test the drugs efficacy. |
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jt512
Mar 9, 2004, 4:42 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Interesting comments - I am also a veterinary surgeon and I have yet to see any convinving data published about animals (in English). If you have any reference that show that chondroitin sulphate and glucosamine are effective I would be interested. I work in a large referral hospital in the UK and myself and my collegues are not convinced. Much of the evidence for there effectiveness in animals is ancedotal and I am not aware of any well design studies that have been performed to test the drugs efficacy. All I know is that 2 weeks of glucosamine for my 2 year old black lab/border collie has made a huge difference. He used to have 2 or 3 "gimpy" episodes in his right hip every day, they'd last for about 2 minutes. He's had only 1 since I put him of glucosamine and it lasted all of 20 seconds.
I think that it has been well established that glucosamine can be effective for arthritis. The question of whether it is helpful for tendon and ligament health is much less clear.
-Jay
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cjain
Mar 9, 2004, 11:59 PM
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Very often Glucosamine Sulfate is sold together with Chondroitin Sulfate and that seems to be what most people are buying (including myself, so far). It's become difficult to buy just Glucosamine by itself--I just checked the costco.com web site ( I get mine from Costco) and couldn't find a glucosamine product that didn't have chondroitin added. Also, I understand that Chondroitin is the more expensive part of the mix.
But from the absracts I've been reading, I'm getting the impression that high molecular weight Chondroitin is no longer considered very promising and a lot of the current research is focusing on more expensive low molecular weight Chondroitin.
The less expensive Glucosamine/Chondroitin mixes don't state what the molecular weight of the Chondroitin is. For example I have the "Kirkland" (Costco store brand) one and it doesn't say anything about molecular weight. So I'd assume they are using less expensive high molecular weight Chondroitin.
Makes me wonder whether I'm wasting money and should look around for either just Glucosamine by itself or spring for the more expensive stuff with the high molecular weight Chondroitin. Anyone know more about this?
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jt512
Mar 10, 2004, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: Very often Glucosamine Sulfate is sold together with Chondroitin Sulfate and that seems to be what most people are buying (including myself, so far). It's become difficult to buy just Glucosamine by itself--I just checked the costco.com web site ( I get mine from Costco) and couldn't find a glucosamine product that didn't have chondroitin added. Also, I understand that Chondroitin is the more expensive part of the mix. But from the absracts I've been reading, I'm getting the impression that high molecular weight Chondroitin is no longer considered very promising and a lot of the current research is focusing on more expensive low molecular weight Chondroitin. The less expensive Glucosamine/Chondroitin mixes don't state what the molecular weight of the Chondroitin is. For example I have the "Kirkland" (Costco store brand) one and it doesn't say anything about molecular weight. So I'd assume they are using less expensive high molecular weight Chondroitin. Makes me wonder whether I'm wasting money and should look around for either just Glucosamine by itself or spring for the more expensive stuff with the high molecular weight Chondroitin. Anyone know more about this?
I don't know anything about the molecular weight issue, nor much about chondroitin in general. Pure glucosamine sulfate has been shown to be effective for arthritis in numerous clinical trials, so that is what I have always used. It is not difficult to find, though you might have to go to a health food store instead of Costco.
-Jay
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pullingpleasure
Mar 10, 2004, 12:26 AM
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if you really want to get your fingers together, take SAMe (S-Adenosylmethionine) 3x a day 200mg per dose along with your 1000mg of glucosamine 3x a day, right and chondroitin 400mg 3x a day. the downside is that it is very expensive.
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jt512
Mar 10, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: if you really want to get your fingers together, take SAMe (S-Adenosylmethionine) 3x a day 200mg per dose along with your 1000mg of glucosamine 3x a day, right and chondroitin 400mg 3x a day. the downside is that it is very expensive.
And probably doesn't do a damn thing for tendons or ligaments.
-Jay
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pullingpleasure
Mar 10, 2004, 1:24 PM
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oh, dont think so jt512? PM me and i would be more than happy to send you several references where in scholarly journals it has been shown that supplementation with glucosamin chondroitin and SAMe are extremely beneficial.
..."probably doesnt do a damn thing for tendons or ligaments"
probably isnt much proof is it?
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flaredcrack
Mar 10, 2004, 2:09 PM
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I think you have to use high quality products. I used GNC Glucosamin, Chondroitin, MSM products for several years with great results. I tried a different, lower-priced brand, and the benefits seem to be waning. You get what you pay for.
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cclarke
Mar 10, 2004, 2:26 PM
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Pullingpleasure-
Could you post the references? I would like to check them out to learn more about SAMe. Thanks.
-Chris
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cabdog
Mar 10, 2004, 3:45 PM
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I use puritan pride vitamins. Anybody have good or bad experiences with them? They have great deals. Buy 1 get 2 free!
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cabdog
Mar 10, 2004, 5:03 PM
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anyone?
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mtengaio
Mar 10, 2004, 5:32 PM
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I've been using Puritan's Pride Glucosamine/Condritin combo for about 5 weeks now and I can tell that it is helping my joints and what feels like my tendonitis/bursitis in my inner elbow and my ring finger. I just ordered a new batch of the Glucosamine/Condritin/MSM combo from them as well. I found out about the company through ConsumerLab.com. They tested different brands of Glucosamine and Puritan's Pride was one of the best for its price. So yeah, I've been pleased with the results so far.
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fern
Mar 10, 2004, 7:15 PM
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I read once that there was a possible connection between Chondroitin and elevated cholesterol levels, but I couldn't tease more details out and now I forget even where I read it. Any of you medical types ever heard of this?
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cjain
Mar 10, 2004, 8:28 PM
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From http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/cho_0071.shtml :
Some years ago, chondroitin sulfate was investigated for its possible use in atherosclerosis. There was some evidence that it could favorably lower lipid levels and protect against blood clotting. Atheromatous aortic lesions were prevented in animals on high-cholesterol diets.
In a clinical trial, 60 patients suffering from coronary artery disease received 2 grams of oral chondroitin sulfate daily for 900 days. During that period, 16 of 60 unsupplemented control patients suffered acute coronary incidents. Only one of the chondroitin sulfate-treated subjects had an acute coronary incident. The same research group later followed up with similarly positive results.
More research is needed before any conclusions can be drawn with respect to a possible role for chondroitin sulfate in the treatment or prevention of atherosclerosis.
From the same page on the molecular weight issue:
Earlier studies using high-molecular-weight chondroitin sulfate, concluded that there was no significant absorption of this high-molecular-weight version of chondroitin sulfate. More recent studies demonstrate that there is probably significant absorption of low-molecular-weight chondroitin sulfate. Absorption appears to occur from the stomach and small intestine. There is also an indication that some chondroitin sulfate, after absorption, does enter the joint space. Studies of the pharmacokinetics of orally administered chondroitin sulfate are ongoing.
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jt512
Mar 10, 2004, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: oh, dont think so jt512? PM me and i would be more than happy to send you several references where in scholarly journals it has been shown that supplementation with glucosamin chondroitin and SAMe are extremely beneficial.
I'd be very interested in seeing those references. I'm not sure why I would PM you, though. Either post them or send them to me by PM.
-Jay
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pullingpleasure
Mar 11, 2004, 2:38 AM
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sorry about the delay guys...was out climbing, mmm.
anyhow heres those references youve all been dying to see:
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:55-59
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:35-42 Pharmaological aspects of SAMe
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:60-65 SAMe in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Review of the Clinical Studies
British Journal of Rheumatology 1997;36:27-31
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:81-83 Double blind clinical trial of SAMe vs. ibuprofen in the treatment of osteoarthritis
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:72-77 Double blind controlled clinical trial of oral SAMe vs peroxicam in knee osteoarthritis
American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:89-94 A long term (2 yrs) clinical trial with SAMe for the treatment of osteoarthritis
if you still need more, i might be able to dig up a few more, but i figured this would be sufficient.
happy climbing
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jt512
Mar 11, 2004, 3:30 AM
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Pullingpleasure, let's review:
In reply to: if you really want to get your fingers together, take SAMe (S-Adenosylmethionine) 3x a day 200mg per dose along with your 1000mg of glucosamine 3x a day, right and chondroitin 400mg 3x a day...
In reply to: And probably doesn't do a damn thing for tendons or ligaments.
In reply to: oh, dont think so jt512? PM me and i would be more than happy to send you several references where in scholarly journals it has been shown that supplementation with glucosamin chondroitin and SAMe are extremely beneficial.
In reply to: I'd be very interested in seeing those references.
In reply to: anyhow heres those references youve all been dying to see: American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:55-59 American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:35-42 Pharmaological aspects of SAMe American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:60-65 SAMe in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Review of the Clinical Studies British Journal of Rheumatology 1997;36:27-31 American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:81-83 Double blind clinical trial of SAMe vs. ibuprofen in the treatment of osteoarthritis American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:72-77 Double blind controlled clinical trial of oral SAMe vs peroxicam in knee osteoarthritis American Journal of Medicine 1987;83:89-94 A long term (2 yrs) clinical trial with SAMe for the treatment of osteoarthritis if you still need more, i might be able to dig up a few more, but i figured this would be sufficient.
Sufficient? They're not even relevant!
First of all, we were talking about tendons and ligaments, but judging by the titles, all your references are about treatment of osteoarthritis. Secondly, you said you had references on the combination of SAMe, glucosamine, and chondoitin, but all your references are on SAMe alone.
Care to try again?
-Jay
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pullingpleasure
Mar 11, 2004, 11:13 AM
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yo jt
alright, look-no kidding all of those were for SAMe i have a whole mess of others that deal w/ glucosamine and chrondroitin. Second, in osteoarthritis the dominant clinical findings are that joint deformity, loss of motion and degeneration of cartilage and chondrocytes occurs. i guess you dont know what that means. chondrocytes are the fibers that make up tendons...for the rest of them. i suggest actually reading the articles to see how the other clinical findings effect you
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pullingpleasure
Mar 11, 2004, 11:30 AM
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glucosamine:
cartilage is mostly composed of collagen fibrils and feathery strings called proteoglycans. These are replaced continuously in response to use. The limiting chemical in the production of proteoglycans is glucosamine. Together with collagen, glucosamine determines how quickly your joints can repair themselves and recover from the stress of intense weight-bearing stress.
your body can make glucosamine from glucose and an amino acid (glutamine). However, glutamine is in constant demand by your immune system muscles and joints. Intense exercise can often overwhelm your glutamine supply (you should also supplement with L-glutamine, but thats not the issue here).
you can bypass the joint shortage by taking glucosamine sulfate, which provides glucosamine ready-made for production of proteoglycans. The following study shows that oral glucosamine sulfate can increase proteoglycans by 170%: Pharmatherapeutics 1984;3:538-550.
The following 2 studies have proven the effectiveness of glucosamine sulfate supplementation:
Current Medical Research & Opinion 1982;8:145-149
Current Topics in Sports Medicine 1984
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pullingpleasure
Mar 11, 2004, 11:50 AM
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Chondroitin:
in conjuntion with sulfur, chondroitin forms a big part of the proteoglycans structure of cartilage; it also assists the synovial fluid to lubricate the cartilage. In many cases, the cartilage loses bulk and progressively dries out, becoming stiff and "scratchy." the sliding surfaces become like sandpaper, especially if crystals of uric acid, calcium phosphate or other minerals have gotten into the joint.
for a while it was debated whether or not chondroitin could be absorbed due to its high molecular weight of 30,000 (cjain had a blip in his post about this). In contrast glucosamine's molecular weight is 211; it readily passes through the intestinal wall.
animal studies in the 80s which used radioactively labeled chond. showed increased levels of radioactivity in the blood, suggesting that the chondroitin molecule somehow got through...however, recent work on human subjects shows negligible absorption of intact chondroitin (Rheumatology International 1992;12:81-88; Journal of Rheumatology 1996;23:1385-1391). nonetheless, studies using oral doses of radioactively labeled chond. continue to show increases in the blood of chondroitin-related and proteoglycan related molecules (Arzneim-Forsh, 1995, Aug;45(8):918-925 Biochemical and pharmacokinetic aspects of oral treatment with chondroitin sulfate).
Dr. L Silvestro at Res Pharma in Italy showed that numerous proteoglycans like substances appeared in te blood after oral doses of chondroitin sulfate in healthy men. He showed that some of them had totally lost their sulfur content, indicating that they had been broken down and reconstructed without sulfur in the blood (Semin Thromb Hemos, 1994;20:281-292).
other studies show that chondroitin can raise blood levels of hyaluronan, which in your joints is a sticky gel that cements the tissues together. Chondroitin can also increase collagen formation in joints (Glycobiology 1997;7(8):1209-1214; Ther Res 1988;44:845).
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jgrierson
Mar 11, 2004, 1:13 PM
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In reply to: yo jt alright, look-no kidding all of those were for SAMe i have a whole mess of others that deal w/ glucosamine and chrondroitin. Second, in osteoarthritis the dominant clinical findings are that joint deformity, loss of motion and degeneration of cartilage and chondrocytes occurs. i guess you dont know what that means. chondrocytes are the fibers that make up tendons...for the rest of them. i suggest actually reading the articles to see how the other clinical findings effect you
Hello Pullingpleasure:
:shock: Chondrocytes are actually cells that make up cartilage, i think you'll find that the fibres that make up tendon are actually collagen :D School boy error!! :roll:
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pullingpleasure
Mar 11, 2004, 4:16 PM
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jgrierson
youre right, i realized it after i posted the msg. thanks for the correction.
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jt512
Mar 11, 2004, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: jgrierson youre right, i realized it after i posted the msg. thanks for the correction.
That little "correction" negates every post you've made in this thread. There is ample evidence of the benefit of glucosamine on joint health, but none, as far as I am aware, on tendon or ligament health. None of the studies you cited have anything to do with effects on tendons and ligaments.
-Jay
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pullingpleasure
Mar 12, 2004, 1:46 AM
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you make me laugh
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