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timpanogos
Mar 11, 2004, 8:24 PM
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I posted this on supertopo, but would also like to ask this group, incase there are those here that do not watch the ST forum.
Does anyone have any good; books, websites, forum threads etc. that would give some good advice/instruction on nailing?
For example, given this kind of crack, existing scar or seam - get out your KB, LA, RURP, Pecker or sawed off baby.
When do I use a baby or stubby since they are in the range of smaller cams? i.e. you have nothing in that would withstand a fall and you are looking at ground fall?
Is anyone here willing to share some information?
For example, I’m standing in a choss pile somewhere, and I want to practice:
1. Angles
a. Baby and snubby
b. Sawed off baby and sawed off snubby
2. KBs
3. LA’s
4. RURPS
5. Peckers
What types of features/conditions am I looking for to practice these various pin types?
Since many of these pin types will have overlaps with ball-nuts, micro cams, nuts, hooks and other clean gear – what are the ethics/decisions that one should be making before resorting to nailing.
I am asking these questions because I want to be a responsible member of the climbing community, and I want to do the right thing – along with developing the skills and knowledge to stay safe and alive.
I have an El Cap A3 trip coming up later this spring. I am the gumby, my partner is very experienced, however, I hope to do my share of leading and I'm trying to get ready for this.
I have a project area of granite A2 to A4 routes available to work out on between now and then. There are plenty of choss areas to practice before getting on any of these nailed project routes (which are on a very nice 3.5 pitch buttress).
Please help me to be responsible – by sharing some nailing knowledge here.
Thanks
Chad
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omenbringer
Mar 11, 2004, 8:35 PM
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Have you tried asking PASSTHEPITONSPETE? Also see if you can get Chongos book, I hear its something of the bigwall bible.
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timpanogos
Mar 11, 2004, 8:47 PM
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I have studied all of PTPP's information; it does not go into this arena much. I also assume that Chongo’s book covers more on hauling/moving/solo systems, like Pete’s info and likely does not touch this topic.
edit:
I did find this post by PTPP about pins.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...opic=6020&forum=19&6
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alpinestylist
Mar 11, 2004, 8:57 PM
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Registered: Feb 22, 2002
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have tried just hammerin pins in rock?
i think someone once said experience is the best teacher.
heres my advice, swing
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diesel___smoke
Mar 11, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: Since many of these pin types will have overlaps with ball-nuts, micro cams, nuts, hooks and other clean gear – what are the ethics/decisions that one should be making before resorting to nailing.
You should read 'Grossman Mouths Off' in the Spring 2002 BD rock climbing gear catalog on page 32. It's an excellent article.
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atg200
Mar 11, 2004, 9:13 PM
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practice, practice, practice is really the only thing you can do. when you first start swinging the hammer on boulders, don't pay much attention to whether or not you can place clean gear in the same place - the idea is to get used to placing pins that are solid, yet not impossible to clean and that don't scar the rock too badly. clean your own pins too - you learn a lot about the placements by cleaning them and remember to favor upward blows to create nut placements(and fingerlocks :twisted: ) as much as possible.
as a general rule thumb, pick a pin that goes halfway or a little less into the placement and start pounding. on granite, you'll hear a nice ringing sound with blades and angles - less so with arrows. the pin should go in up to the eye and should ring with ascending pitches the whole way - if it doesn't you may have picked the wrong pin or the rock might be bad.
sawed off angles are usually used in pin scars. angle pins especially create placements that box out over time, and the proper sized angle will be too long for the scar. i carry a selection that are sawed off at different points to allow different placements, and stacks can work as well if you don't have the right sawed off pin.
as a general rule, place clean gear absolutely anytime you can and use pins as a last resort. if you are willing to hang it out a bit and have lots of tricky gear like offset aliens, hb bronze offsets, and ball nuts you would be surprised at just how many pitches you can do hammerless. i've done a few hundred aid pitches on well over 30 towers(many are not trade routes) in the desert, and i've only placed about a dozen pins. i've whipped and scared myself pretty good climbing on jingus gear when i could have slammed in a good arrow, but its good karma and adds another layer of challenge to think clean thoughts.
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wallrat
Mar 12, 2004, 12:34 AM
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Amen to what ATG 200 said, though it's worth saying (yet again) that Leeper Camhooks are the best thing since sliced bread to help bypass places where nailing is the only other option.
Remember too that it's better to go with a size too big pin, which you can tie off, rather than using one too small, which will suck, no matter how good it looks. If you want to try nailing on those crags you mentioned, yet want to survive for another day, toprope them, or work off of a fixed line hanging from above (if you're the solo type). Then you can bounce test them till your blue in the face, and quickly see what works, what doesn't, and pay no penalty for early withdrawl (ie: Splat). Luck to you.
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johnhenry
Mar 12, 2004, 8:17 AM
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I second the praise for ATG 200`s comments above.
Nailing is the best teacher (and it is a great stress buster). Aid bouldering and bounce testing just off the ground is the ticket. I might add just just a couple other comments...
1.) I like the pin to go in about 55-60% of the way without hammering. Just a few good, accurate blows can yeild a bomber pin.
2.) I have noticed that in straight in cracks, the pin will naturally want to be oriented with the eye to the left or to the right. The first thing I do is just quickly slip it in both ways to see what orientation is best.
3.) I have found angles and beaks to be the easiest to nail. Arrows and blades seem harder to nail but are much easier to stack.
4.)If a angle or blade rings twice at the same tone, STOP NAILING!
5.)Cleaning and renailing the same placement repeatedly while practicing is a great way to learn about scar evolution and stacking.
6.)I read in an old Chinourd catalogue that you should remove a pin by hammering it all the way up and down. I think this is totally bunk. It yields those flaring vulva-like scars. I try to remove it with very small blows up and then back to its original position. I have noticed that the pin will often give out a distinctive ring when it can be plucked by hand.
7.) Check out your offset aliens and cam hooks in your new scars. This will teach you a lot too.
Anyhow, take my advice with a grain of salt. Enjoy yourself. Ah, the pleasure of driving iron (steel really)...
Rock on,
john
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karlbaba
Mar 12, 2004, 9:00 AM
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Registered: Jul 10, 2002
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Their was a recent tech tip in climbing regarding nailing so that it would contribute to facilitating a clean placement in the future. I would recommend a review of those techniques for all aid climbers.
Nailing is ultimately unsustainable. When I lead the Shield Headwall in 91, (or so) it was mostly lost arrows. Now I hear it's sawed off angles. That's sad. Best to nail when you have to and get routes clean as soon as possible so our grandkids can climb something that resembles a natural crack
Peace
karl
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tedc
Mar 12, 2004, 4:57 PM
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I think you would be wasting your time to read about nailing. Just go practice. Much more fun anyway.
When to nail?
Place the clean piece and bounce test.
If it rips :cry: palce it again and test.
If it rips :x try another piece and test.
If it rips :shock: it may be time to pull out the hammer :D .
Also, if you b#tthole is puckered so tight (due to the skecth fall onto the last five C3 placements) that you couldn't hammer a RURP into it. It may be time to hammer said RURP into the crack.
NO the crack in the rock. :wink:
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epic_ed
Mar 12, 2004, 7:39 PM
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Ted, that's a riot. Sound advice. :mrgreen:
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glockaroo
Mar 12, 2004, 8:43 PM
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Just go out to your local chosspile and learn what works, with your feet just off the ground. Eye a potential placement, try a clean method, try a pin, and experiment.
In general pins that ring sweetly and are placed deep enough for the eye to be against the rock are bomber. If the eye sticks out, tie off the pin and use a keeper sling. If the tied-off placement is important fall protection, clip it with a screamer.
Stacked pins offer lots of options when facing weird placements. Stacking blades and RURPs with wired nuts can yield seemingly impossible placements.
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