|
blueeyedclimber
Mar 17, 2004, 1:32 PM
Post #51 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
Great article, I just have one question. When you say sport climbers are gay, do mean anyone who sport climbs or just those that sport climb exclusively. Because i climb sport, but i also climb other ways. Does that make me gay, or just gay when i sport climb? I would like to get married, and if I am gay pretty soon Massachusetts will say that i can't. So you see, it would really benefit me more if I was heterosexual. I am so confused.
JOsh
|
|
|
|
|
callmeraymon
Mar 17, 2004, 3:50 PM
Post #52 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2003
Posts: 89
|
There are lots of minorities out for the sport... hell! I'm 3 minorities.
|
|
|
|
|
ladsquared
Mar 17, 2004, 5:17 PM
Post #53 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 72
|
In reply to: I think you see the world the wrong way if it even occurs to you that you see minorities, or anything other than people climbing.
after reading this article, i think the author is one of the most diluted climbers in the world. what kind of a person looks at a climber's skin before he or she actually climbs with that person? color of skin/origin, sexual preference and gender have nothing to do with climbing.
why did you even write this article if the whole thing was a rebuttal your own questions?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 17, 2004, 5:23 PM
Post #54 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Michael Reardon clearly writes his articles to -
1) Get people thinking.
2) Get people laughing.
If you are not capable of either of the above, you should save yourself the aggravation of reading Mike's articles.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 9:13 PM
Post #55 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
[quote="bumblie"]The "heady pile of words" referenced above had to do with a thread in which people were talking about the absence of blacks in climbing.quote]
Actually, the "heady pile of words" was partly from multiple threads on this board, of which the titles were primarily regarding minorities as a whole of which one of them was hijacked into becoming a black socioeconomic issue which was ludicrous at best.
But there were also several discussions over the last 18 months among climbing friends, editors of magazines, two ad agencies, as well as a couple sports agents I regularly deal with.
There is a life outside of rc.com. I've even heard rumors that people actually go outside and climb once in a while. Some just prefer to stay online and comment from the comfort of their keyboard.
|
|
|
|
|
bumblie
Mar 17, 2004, 9:19 PM
Post #56 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2003
Posts: 7629
|
Obviously, you don't have a problem commenting from the comfort and safety of your keyboard. :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 9:39 PM
Post #57 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: Obviously, you don't have a problem commenting from the comfort and safety of your keyboard. :roll:
It is comfortable being outside with the laptop by the pool. Thanks for contributing that phenomenal insight to the topic. As always, you continue to impress. Now stop stalking and rub some oil on my back like I know you want to.
|
|
|
|
|
scientiffikk
Mar 17, 2004, 10:06 PM
Post #58 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2003
Posts: 64
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Arrogant and thin-skinned. Incompetent to debate? Really? Arrogant? Yes. Thin-skinned? Nope. Incompetent to debate? I'm still waiting for you to step into the ring. If your next one is just another lame personal attack (from the comfort of your keyboard) then I'll pass. I'll let the community members play that game with you. I've got a cheese grater that will be more fun to masturbate with. A fine example of irony. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Or would hypocrisy be more apt? :roll:
How about an example of being delusional?
The way this article is being hyped on the front page is ridiculous. "There are those that claim there are no minorities climbing, and there are those that claim man didn't land on the moon either..."
Again, who is making this claim?
|
|
|
|
|
nagatana
Mar 17, 2004, 11:06 PM
Post #59 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2003
Posts: 425
|
nikdemeis' older thread covered the race/ethnicity issue; some of you should read it.
Regarding the monetary requirements for climbing, do you really believe that it's moot? While people do spend loads of money on other luxuries, it's not abnormal in our times. Therefore, view climbing as a hobby, and compare the cost of climbing to that of soccer, or basketball.
Sure, you can use someone else's gear, but you can also use someone else's ball. And you don't need to wear climbing shoes, just as you don't need to use an actual soccerball to play soccer. So without being ridiculously extremist, let's just say climbing requires a pair of shoes and and harness, and soccer requires a ball (since most people own a pair of sneakers). What's more expensive?
Yes, You can buy used gear, but will most newcomers do that? Most people will buy their gear as painlessly as possible with an acceptable price trade-off. Likewise America buys groceries from Wal-Mart 'cause it's convenient (everything under one roof) as opposed to the local produce market.
I don't deny that there's a population that buys their gear used, visits farmer's markets, and doesn't waste their money on superfluous items like DVDs. However, they're probably a minority (ha).
There exists an evident financial hurdle to start climbing, and those not as economical-advantaged will require more determination and resourcefulness to surmount it.
|
|
|
|
|
nagatana
Mar 17, 2004, 11:35 PM
Post #60 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2003
Posts: 425
|
addendum:
I'll tell you my perspective, and you share yours.
I climb at a gym in the Chicago suburbs. The kids who climb there (myself included) are from middle-class backgrounds. Our families are probably all financially secure, and we'll shop at thrift stores for fashion purposes. Essentially we're free from family fiscal responsibilities, and won't have to sacrifice much, if anything, to climb.
And from this model, I view the rest of the climbing gyms in America similarily.
|
|
|
|
|
chouca
Mar 17, 2004, 11:36 PM
Post #61 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 149
|
Climbing and adventure sports don't have the same appeal to minorities as they do whites. A common perception among our melanin endowed brethren is that white people can't compete at the same level as blacks in organized sports at an elite level, so we turned to extreme sports to achieve without encountering head-to-head competition with others who have the genetic advantage of a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers. Is this true?
Possibly, but the majority of climbers I have met throughout the years tended to be athletically inclined people that did not gravitate to team sports in the first place. Climbing and other outdoor sports filled a vacuum.
Most of the colonial expansion and exploration around the world was accomplished by Europeans. Is it not possible that a cultural or genetic component exists within whites that makes us agitated enough to venture forth at great risk/gain? That may be why some people are completely satisfied getting their kicks at a neighborhood basketball court, while others of us are not happy unless we consistently sample a variety of climbing areas all over the world.
For whatever reason, extreme sports just do not appeal to minorities. They'll do their thing, and we'll do ours. If larger numbers of them see an interest outside of conventional sports, they will be welcomed.
Marc B.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 11:38 PM
Post #62 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: There exists an evident financial hurdle to start climbing, and those not as economical-advantaged will require more determination and resourcefulness to surmount it.
Yup. But there are also plenty of dirt poor climbers who manage to make due. Lynn Hill once remarked that she managed to survive a whole summer on $75. Of course this was during the Camp 4 hay-days.
Still not sure why this has anything to do with the lack of minorities climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 11:40 PM
Post #63 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: Climbing and adventure sports don't have the same appeal to minorities as they do whites. A common perception among our melanin endowed brethren is that white people can't compete at the same level as blacks in organized sports at an elite level, so we turned to extreme sports to achieve without encountering head-to-head competition with others who have the genetic advantage of a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers. Is this true? Possibly, but the majority of climbers I have met throughout the years tended to be athletically inclined people that did not gravitate to team sports in the first place. Climbing and other outdoor sports filled a vacuum. Most of the colonial expansion and exploration around the world was accomplished by Europeans. Is it not possible that a cultural or genetic component exists within whites that makes us agitated enough to venture forth at great risk/gain? That may be why some people are completely satisfied getting their kicks at a neighborhood basketball court, while others of us are not happy unless we consistently sample a variety of climbing areas all over the world. For whatever reason, extreme sports just do not appeal to minorities. They'll do their thing, and we'll do ours. If larger numbers of them see an interest outside of conventional sports, they will be welcomed. Marc B.
I don't agree but by far the best post on this whole thread so far! Nice job.
|
|
|
|
|
nagatana
Mar 17, 2004, 11:41 PM
Post #64 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 28, 2003
Posts: 425
|
Lynn Hill - "more determiantion and resourcefulness"
I believe there's a correlation between race and social-economic status.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 11:43 PM
Post #65 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: Great article, I just have one question. When you say sport climbers are gay, do mean anyone who sport climbs or just those that sport climb exclusively. Because i climb sport, but i also climb other ways. Does that make me gay, or just gay when i sport climb? I would like to get married, and if I am gay pretty soon Massachusetts will say that i can't. So you see, it would really benefit me more if I was heterosexual. I am so confused. JOsh
Dear Josh.
It has been proven by the Republicans in charge that if gays are allowed to marry, then chaos will reign and pretty much everyone and their dog will immediately revert to becoming a homosexual. I know that once I got wind of gay marriage being allowed to happen, I immediately started divorce proceedings and am currently revising my Republican status to Liberal so that Curt and I can live in mixed-marriage bliss. I just need permission from his wife, or at least the Arizona courts.
And yes, it's sad but true. Sport climbers are in fact gay. Again, I happen to clip my fair share of bolts and must admit that there's something special about the feel of lycra soaking up the salty dew drops between my dangling golf balls. And knowing that others are just a thin strip of fabric away from erectile bliss makes my hackles stand up fuzzy and proud.
However, you do have a valid point. If you only climb sport, then you are gay. If you live in a state where gay marriage is allowed, then obviously you're gay. Only those who climb trad in non-gay marriage states can claim they are truly not gay. But then again, most of those heterosexuals are a six pack away from an anal probe by bumblie, I mean "aliens" in the back of their pickup truck.
In your specific case, it appears that you may be bisexual. What I would suggest is getting a trampoline and a busty woman. If her bouncing on the trampoline spurs nasty thoughts, then immediately take pictures and post them on the internet. Oh yeah, and dispense with the lycra and buy yourself a set of nuts. Only then will you be able to conquer the cracks in true manly style.
Good luck, and god bless.
Michael
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 17, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #66 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: It has been proven by the Republicans in charge that if gays are allowed to marry, then chaos will reign and pretty much everyone and their dog will immediately revert to becoming a homosexual. I know that once I got wind of gay marriage being allowed to happen, I immediately started divorce proceedings and am currently revising my Republican status to Liberal so that Curt and I can live in mixed-marriage bliss. I just need permission from his wife, or at least the Arizona courts.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 17, 2004, 11:57 PM
Post #67 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: Lynn Hill - "more determiantion and resourcefulness" I believe there's a correlation between race and social-economic status.
You're right. But knowing as many poor climbers as I do, I find it tough to believe that money is what separates climbers from non-climbers.
All sarcasm aside, what is a bit bothersome is that there really is a perception by many in the climbing community that there are few minorities in this sport. So why is that? Is it:
1. Demographics of an area.
2. Access by minorities.
3. The definition of a minority.
4. Money.
5. The European conquerer proposal stated earlier.
6. Media ignorance.
7. Climber ignorance.
None of the above, something completely different, or everything all at once?
What I do know is that flipping through almost any outdoor publication there is a predominance of white men. Open up a sales catalog for REI in Southern California, and there are plenty of folks of all races and definitely a proportionate run of women. I visit the local crag with friends, and on more than one occasion I've been the only white guy in the bunch, yet there are still people who make claims regarding climbing being predominantly white males (a climbing trip with a couple rc.com'ers prompted exactly that comment). And that I just find to be false, but maybe my experiences have skewed my opinions.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 18, 2004, 12:00 AM
Post #68 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: In reply to: It has been proven by the Republicans in charge that if gays are allowed to marry, then chaos will reign and pretty much everyone and their dog will immediately revert to becoming a homosexual. I know that once I got wind of gay marriage being allowed to happen, I immediately started divorce proceedings and am currently revising my Republican status to Liberal so that Curt and I can live in mixed-marriage bliss. I just need permission from his wife, or at least the Arizona courts. I don't know Mike. My wife is pretty open minded so most of this would be OK with her. She would, however, come totally unhinged if she finds out you are a blonde. :D Curt
Wives never like when their husbands state "I'm going to dinner with a long-haired blonde with a tight little ass." 8)
|
|
|
|
|
rope_burn
Mar 18, 2004, 12:05 AM
Post #69 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2003
Posts: 96
|
That was one of the worst articles that I have ever read. It didn't seem to have a point or even a sentence of relevent fact. This is a climbing site not a political debate. Who cares if there are minorities climbing? If you do then you (mreardon) ARE the racest. The only ones I care about at the crag are me and my partner.
Also, are you yourself gay or stupid? I ask this just out of curiosity because at first you say that all sport climbers are gay and then you say that you went out clipping bolts.
How did that article make the front page?
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 18, 2004, 12:14 AM
Post #70 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: How did that article make the front page?
Because we're still waiting for your contribution :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 18, 2004, 12:14 AM
Post #71 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
My best guess is that more blacks do not climb because climbing is perceived as a "white" activity. Some other posters in this thread have mentioned basically similar thoughts.
I asked Mike Freeman years ago, why there were so many great black athletes and so few black climbers. He told me (among other things) that he had tried to interest some of his black friends in climbing, but that none of them showed the slightest interest in trying it.
Mike also had a sailboat at the time that he would sail along the New Jersey shore. He also could only get white friends of his to sail with him--perhaps also because this is viewed as a "white" activity.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
rmiller
Mar 18, 2004, 12:55 AM
Post #72 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2002
Posts: 251
|
In reply to: That was one of the worst articles that I have ever read. It didn't seem to have a point or even a sentence of relevent fact. This is a climbing site not a political debate. Who cares if there are minorities climbing? If you do then you (mreardon) ARE the racest. The only ones I care about at the crag are me and my partner. Also, are you yourself gay or stupid? I ask this just out of curiosity because at first you say that all sport climbers are gay and then you say that you went out clipping bolts. How did that article make the front page?
The lack of abstract thought/reasoning, reflection, and/or introspection still amazes me. Unbelievable!
|
|
|
|
|
indigo_nite
Mar 18, 2004, 1:07 AM
Post #73 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2002
Posts: 365
|
In reply to: It's not money. Climbing just doesn't really cost that much. A few thousand for a trad rack that you can use for a few decades (less replacing the soft bits) is nothing compared to what people of all types spend on cars, houses Rob
I can't speak for anyone but myself. I held off from trad climbing for about 2 years b/c I thought the gear was too expensive. and especially too much of an investment in case it became a short-lived hobby. the price of entry was one of the highest barriers.
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 18, 2004, 1:43 AM
Post #74 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: My best guess is that more blacks do not climb because climbing is perceived as a "white" activity. Some other posters in this thread have mentioned basically similar thoughts. I asked Mike Freeman years ago, why there were so many great black athletes and so few black climbers. He told me (among other things) that he had tried to interest some of his black friends in climbing, but that none of them showed the slightest interest in trying it. Mike also had a sailboat at the time that he would sail along the New Jersey shore. He also could only get white friends of his to sail with him--perhaps also because this is viewed as a "white" activity. Curt
I remember asking much the same question to friends growing up about why they never joined us in a game of hockey. Typical answer was a basic, "just not interested."
|
|
|
|
|
mreardon
Mar 18, 2004, 1:44 AM
Post #75 of 94
(8958 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 1337
|
In reply to: In reply to: That was one of the worst articles that I have ever read. It didn't seem to have a point or even a sentence of relevent fact. This is a climbing site not a political debate. Who cares if there are minorities climbing? If you do then you (mreardon) ARE the racest. The only ones I care about at the crag are me and my partner. Also, are you yourself gay or stupid? I ask this just out of curiosity because at first you say that all sport climbers are gay and then you say that you went out clipping bolts. How did that article make the front page? The lack of abstract thought/reasoning, reflection, and/or introspection still amazes me. Unbelievable!
Too many syllables... head exploding...
|
|
|
|
|
|
