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lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 9:06 PM
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Caveat: These thoughts spawned out of another discussion. I thought it would make for a good topic of discussion and would like to hear others opinions. These thoughts are not meant to put down anyone else, just my own opinion. (Your typical trade route gumby...)
My new (as of the last few years) theory on Big Walls is that I will not even plan one with a partner unless I am willing to solo the route.
Two reasons:
1. Lets say said partner decides maybe they don't reeeally wanna climb El Cap... at the last minute. This ever happen to anyone? Well, in that case, I'll just solo the damn thing and they can go free climb or whatever it is they want to do. I'll make sure that my partner knows this is how it's gunna be right off the bat.
2. You should be able to lead every pitch as part of the team. Especialy if there are only two of you. Lets say if your way up the wall and your partner tweeks an ankle or hammers a thumb. They don't wanna lead the crux anymore. It doesn't matter if it's C2+ or A4, you better be ready and willing to suck it up and do it...cause otherwise, what the f--- else are you going to do, waive the white flag?
2.5 Jugging up El Cap, or any other wall is not climbing it. Sure it may be a fun learning experience, but it's not the same.
Second point. I won't go up El Cap with someone unless I'm 100% confident they could get me off the wall by themselves in an emergency. There have been a few very scary reports of rescues on El Cap where the partner heroicly lowered the injured climber down, unassisted. This is who I want on my team.
I once was willing to go up with whomever...desperate for partners. But these days I will not compromise. if it means getting a good friend up to speed, then so be it, i'm willing to take the time to do that.
If I was planning to go do an A4 route on the Cap in a month, I'd be out nailing lots of tiny pins and doing lots of runnout hook moves. Cause that's what you will find up there...even on the A3 parts. Forget about splitter cams and cam hooks...that's baby aid.
Maybe this is a stupid topic, I don't know...I just see all these people hooking up on the internet and spraying about hard routes these days...I just gotta wonder, what are you thinking?
Anyway, have fun and be safe, that's what it's all about.
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caughtinside
Mar 30, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: Forget about splitter cams and cam hooks...that's baby aid.
Heh heh, couldn't resist, could you?
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lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 9:14 PM
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nope...sorry...but am I wrong?
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wonder1978
Mar 30, 2004, 10:05 PM
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I think you're totally right lambone.
although I'm worlds away from considering big walls, I do want to put a few longer multipitch routes under my belt this summer (I'm on the east coast so you do have to bracket "longer" in these circumstances).
I am lucky enough to have a partner who aspires to become an alpin guide in the future. So step one this summer will be him teaching me how to get his ass down the cliff in the event that he passes out (and all the rescue techniques such maneuvers entail). I believe this to be a minimum requirement for someone who wants to commit to multipitch ascents. I don't know why I had never considered this mandatory before, but I realize now the precarious position I could have put myself into on previous occasions.
I believe climbing long trad or aid routes requires an almost symbiotic relationship with your partner combined with a total confidence in your own physical and especially mental abilities. The mind games that are an integral part of multipitch climbing are probably what scared me off from it after I learned it in the first place and transformed me into a chicken sh*t sport climber willing to let anyone belay me, as long as he/she had two hands.
I guess it's never too late to remember the thrills of higher altitude and the special bond that builds up between two partners after they survived their epic, and finally, to go back to it.
It should be a grand summer. And who knows, maybe that new found commitment will one day lead me on an A4 pitch, high on El Cap. It must be something.
cheers
W.
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ricardol
Mar 30, 2004, 10:07 PM
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well .. kudos to you lambone ..
.. you're a badd ass motherfu*ker ..
.. i agree with you .. partners bail all the time .. be ready to solo, and you'll have a better frame of mind to tackle the big stone.
it must still be cold at the walls .. i hope we get some posts about real climbs soon .. instead of dribbles about how badd ass we all are..
-- ricardo
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holdplease2
Mar 30, 2004, 10:13 PM
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After you know the basics, climb what you can lead, lead what you can climb.
Anything else is "going to school" which isn't necessarilly bad, but which may not be the safest/best way to experience more than about 10% of my climbing. (topropes/seconds on one pitch stuff excluded)
Shoot me, but it is what I believe.
Some situations, such as relationships, might require shifting this balance a bit, but that situation often optomizes itself over time.
On walls, can you save your own ass and finsh the route or evacuate your partner? If not, what are you doing up there? Steps which push the envelope must be taken with great seriousness and with complete understanding of what will happen if something goes terribly wrong.
I have been dragged up two (trad) climbs in recent years (once by Smithclimber (led the crux pitch, I might not have been able too), once by Scott_Davidson (led both crux pitches when I realized that I could not lead mine of the two). Learned both times, but wouldn't want to be at someone elses "ability mercy" any more than I have to be.
...but, still, the offers to "go send Salathe", or whatever over-my-head-route abound. Probably because I am female, definately not because I should go anywhere near these climbs, to be sure! But by taking small steps and working on my own skills I may earn the opportunity to share equally in climbs like those.
This "big wall theory" applies to trad climbs as well. Lead the crux, or be able to have led the crux (if your partner wins the toss).
Respect yourself in the morning.
My personal opinion, yours may vary.
-Kate.
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atg200
Mar 30, 2004, 10:20 PM
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well said kate. listen to her.
plenty of walls are baking in the sun in perfect weather ricardo. they are just in zion instead of the valley.
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lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: well .. kudos to you lambone .. .. you're a badd ass motherfu*ker ..
Not really...but you are. We both managed to solo Zodiac last summer. Difference is it was your first first time up Zodiac, and first time up any Wall! Me...I knew hwat i was getting into...worlds of difference there...
I'm not saying that everyone should go solo walls, cause soloing is not for everyone, shit...I'm not even sure it's for me yet. All I'm saying is that your bag of tricks should be full before taking on the Big Stone.
In reply to: it must still be cold at the walls .. i hope we get some posts about real climbs soon .. instead of dribbles about how badd ass we all are..
No shit, eh...
rainin' in the valley today...hopefully next week.
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iamthewallress
Mar 30, 2004, 11:06 PM
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In reply to: Second point. I won't go up El Cap with someone unless I'm 100% confident they could get me off the wall by themselves in an emergency. There have been a few very scary reports of rescues on El Cap where the partner heroicly lowered the injured climber down, unassisted. This is who I want on my team.
I think that this is where the heart of the matter lies...One has a responsibility to their partner to be able to get them down off of any route that they might not necessarily be able to lead for themself.
I think that it's foolish to think that you always need to be the equal or better climber on a team as it usually seems to be more rooted in ego than genuine concern for personal safety, and it really limits what you can learn from someone who is more experienced.
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lambone
Mar 30, 2004, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: I think that it's foolish to think that you always need to be the equal or better climber on a team as it usually seems to be more rooted in ego than genuine concern for personal safety, and it really limits what you can learn from someone who is more experienced.
I see your point there...but I'm not sure that's what i was really getting at.
I said that I wanted to not be relient on a partner to get up a route. In case they bail last minute, or incase for some reason that I had to lead the crux pitches.
I'm not saying I don't want to climb with someone who is better than me. I'm all for ropeguns! You wanna take the sketchy pitch, go for it! But, I would not jump on El Cap A4 route unless I could lead A4, or unless I am comfortable with the fact that I may end up leading my first A4 pitch on that climb. Which isn't going to be anytime soon.
Every wall I have done has been with less experienced partners. I had lots of fun, and learned alot in the process as well. But I look back on those climbs thinking I wonder if that was smart, and glad that nothing went realy wrong.
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stone_monkey
Mar 30, 2004, 11:29 PM
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In reply to: Second point. I won't go up El Cap with someone unless I'm 100% confident they could get me off the wall by themselves in an emergency. There have been a few very scary reports of rescues on El Cap where the partner heroicly lowered the injured climber down, unassisted. This is who I want on my team.
http://www.rmru.org/2000-019.htm
another to one with a much better outcome at Suicide with both climbers injured and employing self rescue techniques
http://www.rmru.org/2003-011.htm
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iamthewallress
Mar 30, 2004, 11:33 PM
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In reply to: well said kate. listen to her. plenty of walls are baking in the sun in perfect weather ricardo. they are just in zion instead of the valley.
Little does he know...
Melissa :oops: (I'm not embarassed. I'm sunburned.)
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iamthewallress
Mar 30, 2004, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: I see your point there...but I'm not sure that's what i was really getting at. I said that I wanted to not be relient on a partner to get up a route. In case they bail last minute, or incase for some reason that I had to lead the crux pitches. I'm not saying I don't want to climb with someone who is better than me. I'm all for ropeguns! You wanna take the sketchy pitch, go for it! But, I would not jump on El Cap A4 route unless I could lead A4, or unless I am comfortable with the fact that I may end up leading my first A4 pitch on that climb. Which isn't going to be anytime soon.
Sorry about being murky....My first point was agreeing with what you were saying. That you wouldn't want to get on a route with someone who couldn't get you off it if the sh!t hit the fan. I was saying that I won't want to put someone else in danger by being in that position myself.
The second point...about needing to be able to lead every pitch was more directed at the tack of the rest of the thread. There are times when this is important for the safety of the team (like when bailing is not an option) or for maximizing the probability of you getting on the wall no matter what comes up with your partner. The notion that you shouldn't "respect yourself in the morning" if you were not up to leading the crux, seems like an attitude that is not borne out of a concern for safety.
I think that one can apprentice responsibly...although I agree that someone like me whose hardest aid lead to date is A2+ can probably not safely apprentice on overhanging A4 where getting an incapacitated partner off (w/o calling SAR) requires being up to the task of down aiding or finishing the route.
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bigwalling
Mar 30, 2004, 11:58 PM
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I think this is really good stuff Matt!
Like lambone said if you want to lead A4 it means lots of hooks, small heads, and beaks and blades. All this stuff for a long ways above death falls. It's all death once it hits A4 and up. I have never done that, not sure how many posting regulary have done this hard of aid. A few have but most of us haven't.
A3 still means hard technical climbing but you most likey will just bust a bunch of bones. This is scary stuff if you don't keep a cool head, even then fear is likely good for you.
I'm not sure how chris rates stuff. Ranch is A4 in his book. I've led stuff I found easy that friends said would be rated A3 by chris. But I don't think that it was that hard, more like A1/2- at the most. So maybe the A3 will be cake. But I'd never expect it that way. At least not deep down.
But like what the hell do I know (no sarcasim here!)?
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lambone
Mar 31, 2004, 12:03 AM
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Then again, El Cap just very well be the best place to learn A4...where alot of the falls are clean... (or is that not really A4, aid ratings confuse me). Anyway point being...I wouldn't want my first a4 pitch to be some 1 pitch route at a local crag, for obvious reasons.
Regarding supertopos...I have a hard time gauging those ratings.
Leading one C2+ pitch this summer I was looking at a 60 footer should the shoelace I was hanging on blow...yet higher up i walked up C3 with bomber offset pieces....not much fall potential at all...
But that's a whole nuther topic I guess.
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bigwalling
Mar 31, 2004, 12:29 AM
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Ratings are really confusing to me too, I just like to think of A2+ and up as being the area of danger. Sometimes even easier stuff. It's all about the danger factor.
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timpanogos
Mar 31, 2004, 3:14 AM
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I do feel very lucky to have someone who solo’s elcap a4 willing to take me along. Yes, I’m not worthy. I will not be able to claim “I climbed the ranch”. I hope to be able to claim, “I lead these pitches of the ranch”. And maybe end up a more viable trade route partner in the future based on this experience.
I’m working hard to be at least a contributing partner on this route – I’m going with the mindset that I will lead my share of the a3 pitches.
To bone’s statement/question – if your partner bails – you should be prepared to solo it. I believe I am going prepared to solo it. Qualified to mean – Solo El Cap – If my partner bails – I’ll move a few feet over from the start of the ranch and jump on the C2 North American Route.
Sure, I’m going along as the student on WSR – but I have worked hard – eating, sleeping and shizting this climb in preparation. I have all the personal gear needed and I’m going to Yosemite to climb ElCap – wsr partnered, na solo or some a3 camp 4 partner otherwise. – ok ok, na has lots of traversals and would be a nasty solo, but you get the point. Ricardo solo zodiac – I’ll line up on that one.
Not sure if this counts – but assume this is a common thing – plans change (weather, partners, route lines etc.) Sure you are going to have to adjust to the context.
I believe I would be an equal partner on c2 - and by the end of the climb, possibly c3.
I’ll be proud and venture to say that my self rescue skills (i.e. pig wrestling - weight transfer, rappelling with heavy loads), solo lead head, gear/anchor cluster-defuxk, knot crossing, pro/anchor knowledge .. hell its aid keep going … and experience might make me a fairly decent el cap partner. Hey, it’s limited experience but I’ve been getting out there and doing it, mostly solo – with some success.
I hope to never have to use any of the things I’ve learned with the Park City Ski Patrols 3 month “Outdoor Emergency Care” classes that I took. But no, like the other thread on learning aid after MUCH trad experience - get yourself a trad veteran that wants to do el cap with you – but has never yet dealt with – cleaning traversals, roofs and pendulums, docking pigs, lower outs, hauling rigs, solo techniques, ladders, aiders, russians, adjustable daisies etc. and see how quickly all that wonderful experience helps out. I might suck at it, but have indeed actually done some.
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lambone
Mar 31, 2004, 3:40 AM
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In reply to: To bone’s statement/question – if your partner bails – you should be prepared to solo it. I believe I am going prepared to solo it. Qualified to mean – Solo El Cap – If my partner bails – I’ll move a few feet over from the start of the ranch and jump on the C2 North American Route.
havta point out a subtle but important missquote there Chad. I never said "You should be prepared to solo it." I said, "I will be prepared to solo it."
The difference is that I'm stating my own personal philosophy, not dictating how others should climb or approach big wall climbing.
My theory is based on purely selfish reasons really. I really hate bailing on a wall that I have been plotting on for months/years. It really tears me up inside. One time it brought me to tears and I was depressed for a long while afterward. When I take time off from my job and family, drive all night, spend a bunch of money, and physicaly and mentaly prepare for a wall, I don't want to give up on it at the last minute because my partner is not into it. Sometimes that partner has been/will be my best friend. For selfish reasons only I wil say sianara and go it alone. Maybe if I'm in the mood I might just go free climbing instead...just depends on the vibe and the trip.
The NA would be a bold solo. I planned on it last summer, and after hearing from friends tougher than I that I should be prepared for 2 weeks on the wall, I had to opt for Zodiac instead. It was great, but I'd havta say that mentally preparing for a big solo is a whole different ball of wax. While up there I was lonely and wishing I had a friend to kick it with, in that respects nothing beats a good partner on the wall. But when I got down I just wanted to go up by myself again.
You may take it personaly Chad, but this thread wasn't really directed at you. I was just thinking about my own climbing experiences. Anyway...have fun man. Go send that Peeler.
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epic_ed
Mar 31, 2004, 6:28 AM
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Looks like I missed a busy day. :mrgreen:
The theme of several of these threads that have been kicked around today kind of blend together. Good discussion, Matt. I like that you've always told it like it is and never blow smoke up someone's ass because that's what they want to hear. If you come across a little abrasive at times, at the very least you usually make me stop and think.
In Chad's defense, he is without a doubt the most analytical person I've ever met, but he's not a helpless gumby. Chad's one of those really bright guys that has so much going on in his head that he can't help but start rambling about it -- or typing about it as the case may be. I think he gets a little carried away with the minutae, but most of what he talks about is simply the excited ramblings of a guy who's really discovered something he loves. I wouldn't confuse his excitement and zeal with desperate cries of a guy heading for disaster. Chad's a competent climber who has been taking a logical, methodical approach to his learning curve. Most people come back and spray about their achievements. Chad bares his ass and lets us in on the painful and and humbling process of what leads up to achievement. It may not be entertaining or educational for those who have been playing this game for a number of years, but here's a guys who's simply looking to pass along his learning experience to others who may soon be in his shoes, and to get some feedback from those who have been there before him. If you think for a moment that he's "spraying" about his climbing on Peeler then you simply don't get where he's coming from. Chad may get that marble rattling around in his cage a little too fast at times, but he's definitely a humble guy.
As for the topic of this post -- I prefer to solo when aiding these days, and in addition to the reasons Matt listed, I solo because I don't want to put anyone else through the torture of my learning curve. I'm not good enough of fast enough yet to subject anyone else to my process of working things out. When I'm soloing, I don't have to worry about anyone else's time table or expectations. I can just climb. And I can make my mistakes in private without pissing anyone off. Beyond that, I like the zone I get in while soloing -- very Zen-like. There's always something going on; my head has to be in the game; each minor victory is mine and mine alone; the responsibility for each defeat sits squarely on my shoulders.
It's tough to find a partner for a wall. It's not like cragging. Not a bit. I enjoying climbing with partners, but doing a wall is such an intense experience mentally, physically, and emotionally that I almost always prefer to keep those moments private. I don't always like how I act when I faced with the intense stress that comes with doing a wall. It can bring out both the best and worst in me, and I think I have too many personal demons to work out before I subject anyone else to partnering with me to do a wall. Soloing is therapy -- not sure what for, but regardless of the outcome I have always come away from my solo climbs a changed person.
Ed
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skiclimb
Mar 31, 2004, 6:44 AM
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I have had different partners on all but teo walls I have done...the best partners i ever had were a couple guys i hooked up with 5 minutes after nearly having a knockdown dragout..major shouting fest with a guy who bailed on me at the meadow...i wanted to kick his arse so bad...lol..then hooked up and had a fantastic trip with a couple guys i'd never seen before..
basically i don't give a crap who my partner is...as long as they can belay, clean and jug...nice if they can lead some too...as long as my anchor is good and the guy is using a grigri..i can take care of the rest..whatever happens...
I think people take walls way too seriously...you either get up or don't..but the safety principles are no different than being 50 ft up any trad climb.
i highly recommend any n00b wall aspirant to grab their gear and tote it to the bottom of the big rock and give her a go..that's how i started...never once felt intimidated by El Capitan...my first reaction was wow awesome..kinda thought it would be bigger though..failed a couple times but had a blast doing it..once i got it figured out never had another problem summiting...after that it's just a matter of becoming more and more efficient.
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lambone
Mar 31, 2004, 6:50 AM
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In reply to: basically i don't give a crap who my partner is...as long as they can belay, clean and jug...nice if they can lead some too...as long as my anchor is good and the guy is using a grigri..i can take care of the rest..whatever happens...
hmmm...well then. I guess you don't really even need a partner...right?
That was pretty much my attitude. Then I came to thinking...I have only done 1 wall where my partner and I were in full sync. All the rest there was some issue, and many bail outs. So I figured screw it, might as well just cut the whole partner factor out of the loop.
But if I do have a partner...they will definately be someone I have climbed alot with, or know for sure that they are solid.
As for ed's post about analytical thinkers....this is some thread drift...
I've climbed walls with dudes like that and the bottom line is that it took them too damn long to get anything done. I'm convinced one in particular cost us an extra day or two on the route...ever wait 45 minutes for someone to rig the "perfect" belay before even getting the pig off the anchor? It is completley unnerving...
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skiclimb
Mar 31, 2004, 7:04 AM
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Been too lazy to do a solo yet...maybe the shield in May i also like the idea of doing the TD and rapping down the nose ( always wanted to do that get a lot of cool pics of other parties too). I have only ever had two partners in any climbing i ever did that i argued with much and that was a while ago ( one was the aformentioned guy i did two walls with then he bailed on me at the meadow... he had just gotten off liberty cap a couple days before)
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okinawatricam
Mar 31, 2004, 9:43 AM
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Some of the best times on Walls were with partners I met in Camp Four the day before. Once I knew they were safe, we climbed. Some were more experienced then me, other were less.
I'll climb with anyone who is safe.
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flamer
Mar 31, 2004, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: I've climbed walls with dudes like that and the bottom line is that it took them too damn long to get anything done. ...ever wait 45 minutes for someone to rig the "perfect" belay before even getting the pig off the anchor? It is completley unnerving...
HaHa!
I hate that, just tie the $hit off and away we go!!
josh
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cologman
Apr 4, 2004, 12:40 AM
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Sure its great to have the perfect partner tuned to your every thought, totally committed, gung ho and chomping at the bit to get on the next pitch. Then again, I get tremendous pleasure from sharing the experience with less experienced players. Sure I make sure they can belay, even have confidence in the fact that when we're over 4 - 5 pitches off the deck they won't start feeling homesick. But do they have to be able to step up to the plate and carry the game forward on their own, no way! In this way I'm hoping (usually from some previous knowledge admitedly) that I am contributing to their overall maturing as a climber. I certainly won't be taking a big wall newbie on an A4 testpiece, but whoever thinks that a big wall climb isn't a real climb unless its A3 or harder isn't someone I'd likely partner with anyway. Timpanagos, I admire your determination and gumption at staying the course and seeing some successes. Chad in a lot of ways is more like what I remember the learning curve to be like than alot of the other comments posted.
I have to throw in another $.02; the suggestion that jugging a rte isn't climbing is purely a matter of perspective. For some jugging up something may be totally lame and outside anything they would ever consider to be climbing. But there are MANY others who find/will find that as part of 2-man team jugging/cleaning, clearing out the belay station, lowering out the pig all while hanging from anchors, bolts or otherwise, hundreds of feet of the deck is very much a climbing experience. :shock:
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