|
|
|
|
boulderman
Apr 1, 2004, 9:12 PM
Post #1 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2003
Posts: 238
|
I have a question about extending a climb and adding difficulty points to the new rating. I guess this could apply to all levels of ratings but my question is really based on very hard climbs getting a higher rating because moves are added, but the new moves are not necessarily harder than the original crux moves.
Example, I was reading about a proposed V16 in Italy, (I am not questioning this rating or complaining about the method used to come up with the rating, I just want an explanation of the method). This climb was previously a V14. The person who has the FA added 3 moves to the start. He states these 3 new moves are all V10. How do V10 moves take a V14 up to V16? This has happened to other climbs too. Many easy or moderate bouldering problems add a point to the grade if you add a sit start. That is easy to understand, because usually this new sit start is harder than any other move in the climb.
I’m guessing that the reasoning behind this phenomena kind of goes like this: A V10 boulder problem has 1 V10 crux move and the rest can be any combination of grades. But if you start adding multiple V10 moves back to back then the grade becomes more difficult. If you had a 15ft boulder with 3 V10 moves instead of one would it be a V11/12? Is this a correct assumption and is there science or a formula behind this madness?
Is a moves difficulty measured independently of all other moves, or are they measured as part of a sequence, (example: A V10 top out is easier if the moves preceding it are all V6, but a V10 top out move is much more difficult after linking 3 V9 moves to a V10 move that leads to the V10 top out)?
Boulderman
|
|
|
|
|
thinksinpictures
Apr 1, 2004, 9:15 PM
Post #2 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 447
|
There is no formula for rating a climb. It depends on a thousand factors from the size of the holds to what the FA climber had for breakfast that morning. It also doesn't matter that much.
|
|
|
|
|
boulderman
Apr 1, 2004, 9:19 PM
Post #3 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 18, 2003
Posts: 238
|
If it didn't matter, then climbs wouldn't have ratings. If it doesn't matter to you then don't respond. I agree that there are many factors involved, but I also think there is a formula involved. So, I'm looking for an answer from a serious climber who has FA's and has experience with rating climbs.
Bottom line is: I'm looking for real insight here, not being flamed about the ratings issue or number chasing. We can have a serious question about an important part of our sport, can't we?
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
matttheripper
Apr 1, 2004, 9:49 PM
Post #4 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 65
|
I've wondered about this myself
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Apr 1, 2004, 10:27 PM
Post #5 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
I've been under the impression that a problem was rated with respect to how hard the whole thing feels. I.E. adding a sit start that feels itself like V3 would kick a V3 problem up into the 4-5 range. Also, some things can be extremely diffucult in that doing a lower start or higher section puts the climber in an extremely awkward situation. Thus a sit start to Sign of the Cross (V3) goes at V12.
|
|
|
|
|
omenbringer
Apr 1, 2004, 11:05 PM
Post #6 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2003
Posts: 248
|
I thought that a climb was always rated after it's hardest individual move and that it didn't matter if it had multiple moves of that level or just one. I think this is why some have added the terms "hard" or "soft" to the grades. As an example a face climb with one 5.10 move would be called a soft 5.10 while a sustained multiple 5.10 move problem would be called hard 5.10.
|
|
|
|
|
joshklingbeil
Apr 1, 2004, 11:51 PM
Post #7 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 403
|
If your at Jacks Canyon 4 real 5.9 moves = a Solid Jacks 5. 12
|
|
|
|
|
t-nutz
Deleted
Apr 1, 2004, 11:58 PM
Post #8 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
The way I understand it is that there are a couple of factors that go into the grading
1. The hardest move
2. The head factor
3. The pump factor
Ex. if you have a climb that is say V3 and it has a sit start (part of the head factor) and a high top out you make it say V4, But it is also all V3 moves so you make it a V4/5
That is just the way I understand it I could be wrong
:)
|
|
|
|
|
miuralover
Apr 2, 2004, 12:03 AM
Post #9 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 9, 2003
Posts: 106
|
Also in the case of the V16, a key hold broke on the V14 part making that harder as well.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Apr 2, 2004, 12:28 AM
Post #10 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
Personally, I think a climb should be rated by it's hardest move, not by what it "feels like". This is the case with most Trad climbs I've done, but it seems that many of the newer sport lines tend to be rated by what they "feel like", as in many 5.11- moves one after the other will get a 5.12+ rating, when no move is harder than 5.11-. Can't say why, other than I have noticed that many Sport Climbers tend to be more into the numbers than Trad climbers.
This is the difference between technical crux and redpoint or physical/endurance crux. The YDS is supposed to be a rating of the technical difficulty of a climb IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
reedcrr
Apr 2, 2004, 10:10 AM
Post #11 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 99
|
Ratings are hard thing to judge at the beginning, not withstanding the confusion of trying to one up your peers in the numbers game.
All three climbing styles are way differant and can't be compared with using one universal YDS system. This is why people complain so much about ratings. The YDS was developed with Trad and aid in mind!
A 5.9 sport climb is not the same as climbing the same route with 50 lbs. of gear on you back. Trad routes are generally harder routes because of the extra poundage and the added mental stress of protection not holding, so that "easy" 5.9 all of a sudden becomes and feels like a pain in the ass 5.11 sport climb! Don't believe me try climbing a 5.13+ trad climb, and see if you can find me a 5.14+ full trad route...no bolts...
But sport climbing allows you to climb even harder and faster because you are lighter and not so stressed about the protection. Most climbers don't like bruising thier egos so when the guidebook says they just climbed a 5.12 then by God, they climbed it! Thanks Todd for all the ego support out in Vegas, loved every minute of it!
As far as your question goes, sport route additions shoud be an obvious detour with added bolts to another anchor in order to qualify as a variation... or maybe the reverse, starting in another line and finishing at common anchors. Don't go and climb two feet left or right of the line and say.."man it's harder over here I think we should rename this route!" That is cheap and lazy! Find you own line and develop it, don't rip someone else for your own glory!
I can't speak for bouldering as I do not do it but I am sure the rules are basically the same. If you add the sit start you might want to check with the person who developed the line... the sit start might have been a given from the beginning, as it is the most common start on boulder problems!
Have Fun and Climb Hard!
|
|
|
|
|
matttheripper
Apr 2, 2004, 9:25 PM
Post #12 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2003
Posts: 65
|
In reply to: Personally, I think a climb should be rated by it's hardest move, not by what it "feels like".
I agree. I can't see how a formula can be used to objectively grade every climb. Every climb "feels" different to every climber.
Boulderman posed a good question though. How do 3 V10 moves take a V14 up to V16?
This makes no sense to me
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Apr 2, 2004, 9:50 PM
Post #13 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
In reply to: In reply to: Personally, I think a climb should be rated by it's hardest move, not by what it "feels like". I agree. I can't see how a formula can be used to objectively grade every climb. Every climb "feels" different to every climber. Boulderman posed a good question though. How do 3 V10 moves take a V14 up to V16? This makes no sense to me
If you look above, you'll note that a hold broke off the original line, making it harder than it already was. Also, note the guy who sent the proposed V16 sent dreamtime, which is the de facto standard for V15. I'm going to trust him until someone else comes along and downrates it.
|
|
|
|
|
joshklingbeil
Apr 9, 2004, 2:03 AM
Post #14 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 403
|
I climbed this V6 from the standing start.But it's a V10 if you sit start it.
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 9, 2004, 2:21 AM
Post #15 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
I posed this question to Hans Florine years ago about why I could climb hard 11's but not easy 12's, yet I could do every move on the 12, just not link em. His answer was that if you have a whole string of, say, 11d moves in a row, it's going to be alot harder than climbing a climb with 10 5.9's and one 5.11, so it would be graded in the 12's or harder, depending on factors like length etc. I would assume the same applies to bouldering.
|
|
|
|
|
rockclimbergabor
May 16, 2005, 1:59 AM
Post #16 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2003
Posts: 131
|
It makes no sense to grade a route by its hardest single move (a roped route). Would a 30 foot route with all 5.2 moves and one 5.11c move be rated the same as a 200 foot route with all 5.11b moves and one 5.11c move? There are many factors, the easist way to grade a route is to compare it to other similar routes of the same or near the same grade.
As to the V16 thing, a hold broke and also think of how much harder the crux is going to be, doing it with 3 V10 moves into it. This is another reason why it goes at V16. You can try this at your gym or crag... for example if youre in a gym, if you climb V8, do a 3 move V5 into the crux of the it, and see how much harder its going to feel.
|
|
|
|
|
hosh
May 16, 2005, 2:14 AM
Post #17 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 1662
|
I recently set a new lead only route in the local gym. I rated it 5.10 even though there weren't any moves on it harder than 5.9. It's just that the moves are all stacked in such a way that pretty much assures you'll get pumped. I set the thing and usually climb up to about 5.11/5.12 and I've only finished it clean once. Ratings have a lot to do with the person who's rating the climb. I said 5.10 to scare off anyone who's really not up to the challenge of taking a whipper off a climb, possibly one that might end up being a ground fall (if you blow the 2nd or 3rd clip, you could deck).
In my mind, ratings are more like suggestions...
hosh.
|
|
|
|
|
maxclimber1w
May 16, 2005, 2:52 AM
Post #18 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 124
|
I believe in grading routes on how they 'feel.' It is a fact that different routes are different grades for different people, and that simply rating the hardest move is erroneous, because of the pump factor, but that factor will be very different in different climbers.
If you have the experience to be confident in the grade you peg on a route, than that is probably how hard the climb is (for you).
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
May 16, 2005, 4:07 AM
Post #19 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: I recently set a new lead only route in the local gym... to scare off anyone who's really not up to the challenge of taking a whipper off a climb, possibly one that might end up being a ground fall (if you blow the 2nd or 3rd clip, you could deck). |
|
|
|
|
jeep4evr
May 16, 2005, 4:29 AM
Post #20 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 80
|
In reply to: A 5.9 sport climb is not the same as climbing the same route with 50 lbs. of gear on you back. Trad routes are generally harder routes because of the extra poundage and the added mental stress of protection not holding, so that "easy" 5.9 all of a sudden becomes and feels like a pain in the ass 5.11 sport climb!
This is why people usually give their climb rating for sport, trad, TR, whatever. IE: "He can top rope 5.12a, lead 5.10d, but only trad 5.9"
|
|
|
|
|
cuttyusa66
May 16, 2005, 4:48 AM
Post #21 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2004
Posts: 3
|
I think the main difference here is between the types of ratings. Most "routes" are rated with the YDS, and are usually rated by the hardest move on the climb. When it comes to bouldering "problems" however, they are rated on their overall difficulty, and can be rated higher when there is a section that is continuously hard. Hence the "V" ratings; it is a totally different rating scale. That is why a lot of climbers do not like to say that a V0 is like a 5.9, because it really isn't. The climbs are rated on separate scales, and the ratings do not translate very well back and forth.
|
|
|
|
|
jeep4evr
May 16, 2005, 7:15 PM
Post #22 of 22
(2545 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 80
|
The ratings between V grades and the YDS aren't supposed to be direct translations of each other, otherwise there would be no need for two different systems. This is analogous to 2 math courses I recently took. Calc III and Linear ALgebra are taken in conjunction with one another, and even though they are absolutely nothing alike, you need about a certain amount of abstract thinking for both of them. Same way with the YDS and V system. If you can climb 5.12 then its a pretty good bet you can boulder V5 or whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
