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rvega
May 4, 2004, 11:27 PM
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Went climbing at Jtree this weekend with 6 guys and one other girl . I pulled a move that almost everyone was struggling on and immediately three of the guys said that I could do it because "I had small fingers." This is a ridiculous excuse. It infurtiates me that guys assume the only reason I could do a move they couldn't, is because I'm little. I've never heard a woman say the same thing to me. So what's the deal? Why not congratulated me instead of making excuses? Why do men feel the need to do this? Anyone?
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rokstahr39
May 4, 2004, 11:54 PM
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because it means you beat them at something and they can't bear that. Inferiority complex. It really depends on the guy... I hear from most guys that they think girls who can pull hard are hott... but I don't know what they think if a girl beats them . Don't take it too personally, k? congrats tho!
Becky
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moabbeth
May 5, 2004, 12:43 AM
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In reply to: I pulled a move that almost everyone was struggling on and immediately three of the guys said that I could do it because "I had small fingers." This is a ridiculous excuse.
Well, like it or not on small cracks, you DO have an advantage over the boys with big mitts. It's not an excuse. They're not really criticizing you, but they are pointing out you have a physical advantage that they don't on that particular route. Hell, do you know how many times in Indian Creek I heard someone say that Coyne Crack is a 5.12 unless you're a girl with small fingers, then it's a 5.9. It's not a put down, it's just if you have small fingers you can fit them in stuff the guys (or girls with larer hands) can't. I wouldn't take what they're saying so seriously or as a put-down. You actually should get used to it cause if you do have small hands and are pulling things guys with you can't, you're gonna hear it over and over and over in your climbing career. Just smile and say "yep, my small girl hands rule!" :wink:
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shorty
May 5, 2004, 1:15 AM
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Rebecca -- a future solution is to give these guys some serious penalty slack next time you belay them. A comment of "Oops, I guess my small fingers just can't move the rope fast enough." :wink:
Although it's way overused by us neanderthal types, on rare occasions the finger size ploy does have some merit. But I think technique is the real issue on face climbs. If you climbed it and they didn't, well guess what -- they need to get better to keep up with you.
In your defense, think Lynn Hill and The Nose. So far nobody else has shown the combination of strength, technique, flexibility, and finger size (per what the trade publications say) to pull off free climbing the route. I don't place Scott Burke's ascent anywhere near the same league, but I gotta give him some credit for trying. Shoot, I suck compared to Lynn Hill, too.
Now pure crack climbing can be a different story. What's a sinker 5.8 hand jam for my average paws might feel like tight 5.10a hands for a big guy and rattly 5.10a off hands for you (assuming your hands are small). However, a so-called 5.11 Indian Creek off-fingers for me might feel like great 5.10 hand jams for you.
As for height, I might be able to go straight for the 5.8 jug at the Gunks and skip a tiny intermediate 5.10 crimper that you have to use. But later on that pitch, I might get crunched up in the traverse under the 5.7 roof (all the while cursing like a drunken sailor) while you casually stand up through the moves and smile for the photo op.
My bottom line is:
1. Learn how to use your strengths to your advantage.
2. Work harder on improving your weaknesses.
3. Climb with partners who support you and vice versa.
4. Have fun.
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ermsam
May 5, 2004, 3:06 PM
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It may be true that your fingers fitted the problem better than theirs did.
However the fact is, if that is the first thing they said, and they made it sound as though that is the only reason you got up the problem, then they are loosers.
Every time they send a burly problem you find difficult, do you say " oh, thats just because as a man you typically have greater muscle mass than I do"?
I don't think so.
I am a tall guy. I find it easyer to send dynos, and harder to do powerfull problems. I climb with a friend who is the opposite. We still have fun.
He isn't bothered that I send a dyno in 2 goes when it takes him 7. I don't care that I take 6 goes on a problem he flashed.
Find some better climbing friends who don't need to be so defensive. It stops them and you climbing harder and having more fun.
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missedyno
May 5, 2004, 3:54 PM
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just because my hands fit on to the small hold, doesn't mean i can hold on. holding on takes strength and technique.
In reply to: It infurtiates me that guys assume the only reason I could do a move they couldn't, is because I'm little. I've never heard a woman say the same thing to me. So what's the deal? Why not congratulated me instead of making excuses? Why do men feel the need to do this? Anyone?
i suggest you find a different group of climbing buds. when i started climbing I was with a group of guys that used me for constant amusement and power trips on their own abilities. sticking me on sandbagged exposed routes after climbing for 2 months in the gym... the last straw was when i was trying a so called "direct" version of a problem in the gym, my hair bandana fell off and they were yelling for me to take my shirt off. we haven't climbed together since.
anyway, just to contrast that with who i'm climbing with now. these guys are really supportive, and down to earth. so not all men feel the need to insult you when you climb well. if someone's putting you down because you're progressing, i strongly suggest you:
a) kick them in the ankles and/or;
b) don't climb with them anymore.
if you keep climbing with people with such toxic personalities, it could have dire effects on your confidence and climbing ability. get out now!!! :)
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crazygirl
May 5, 2004, 6:11 PM
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They also use the flexibility excuse.
But really, why is it bad thing? If they say you pulled a move because you are lighter, or smaller, or smarter or because you are a girl (what does that mean?). tell them, thats right, boys, you'll never be able to climb as well as me.
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rvega
May 5, 2004, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: Every time they send a burly problem you find difficult, do you say " oh, thats just because as a man you typically have greater muscle mass than I do"?
This is exactly the point. I'm not making excuses everytime they send something I can't. And truthfully those boys are great but it still irks me when instead of congratulating me they make comments like that. It belittles my successes.
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sierramike
May 5, 2004, 11:25 PM
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Hey, wait just a doggone minute. I thought size didn't matter. Oh, woe is me!!
Anyhow, great work on getting that hard move.
Finger size can be a determining factor on how fast someone does something, not necessarily whether they do it or not. Inch and a quarter is my worst size. Does this mean that I can't do it, no. It only means it takes me longer than other size cracks. I suspect that you will run into a route that stymies you a bit due to it's characteristics. It all evens out in the end.
If the boys can't do it and need to use the "small hand" excuse why they can't, well...like others have said before, maybe it's time to move onto other climbing partners.
I prefer to think that your hard work, determination, and training helped you send your "project", not because your fingers are a certain size or not. You still had to have the strength, endurance, and technique to do the move once you grabbed the hold in question.
Apparently, you had what it took. Good for you. Keep shredding.
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pianomahnn
May 6, 2004, 1:44 AM
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Unfortunately, finger size does indeed play a factor (and sometimes a large one) in climbing.
Think pockets and VERY large slopers and pinches. In the case of pockets, people with large fingers may only be able to get one in, but in my case, I could very well fit 2 (I have VERY small fingers). However, with large pinches, it's not uncommon for me to just peel right off because my short fingers simply cannot reach the good parts where the longer fingers can.
Think of holding a VERY large diameter cup. Holding it in the middle, or a bit beyond works fine. But being unable to make it to the middle portion makes holding on quite difficult. It's a very valid reason for falling off a hold. It doesn't matter, but it's still a reason.
It's something I've grown to live with. I've had to work at growing that pinch strength because of my minute fingers, however the crimp/pocket strength has been a piece of cake.
Ohzeewellzee. It's all bologna. Who cares? If these people are razzing you, meanspirited like, tell em' to fuck off and find nicer people. :)
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curt
May 6, 2004, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: Went climbing at Jtree this weekend with 6 guys and one other girl . I pulled a move that almost everyone was struggling on and immediately three of the guys said that I could do it because "I had small fingers." This is a ridiculous excuse.
Next time tell these guys that your success was not due to your small fingers--but rather their failures were due to their small penises. That should shut them up pretty fast. :D :D :D :D
Curt
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mattdog
May 6, 2004, 8:11 PM
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I don't see what's such a big deal here. I have small fingers for a guy, and I can get them in places where most other guys can't. Gives me an advantage, and I'll admit it.
I also admit that I can climb a grade harder than my wife for the sole reason that I am 8 inches taller than her. Just tell the guys next time, "You only sent that because you're taller than me. If you were forced to use intermediate holds, you'd fall."
Some of the guys will take you up on the challenge, and fall themselves. Its quite humourous. (I know, I've done it. Its alot harder to climb when you're short.) 8^)
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cantbuymefriends
May 7, 2004, 11:51 AM
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In reply to: Next time tell these guys that your success was not due to your small fingers--but rather their failures were due to their small penises. That should shut them up pretty fast. :D :D :D :D Curt
Well, if you have to have a large penis to succeed, how come she could do it? :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
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adventureman
May 7, 2004, 5:09 PM
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In reply to: the last straw was when i was trying a so called "direct" version of a problem in the gym, my hair bandana fell off and they were yelling for me to take my shirt off. we haven't climbed together since.
I should hope not...idiots. :evil:
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adventureman
May 7, 2004, 5:14 PM
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I hate gender-biased remarks like that...they're degrading and stupid. My regular partner climbed 5.10- the other day in the gym with a messed up ankle...I get about 1/4 up that route and fall off. Her smaller hands had nothing to do with it, she's just a better climber than me, that's all.
Guys who make remarks like that deserve to climb by themselves, or with other guys who share the same attitude, so they don't bother the rest of us.
Good job on making that move!
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indigo_nite
May 7, 2004, 10:38 PM
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at first I thought the small finger was a metaphor...
anyhow, I think small fingers can be an advantage. and then big hands can be an advantage elsewhere.
call me stereotypifying (?) but I'd guess if there was a woman in the group, she'd probably be congratulating. I think guys are really socialized as competitors. women can be too (I think I am) but I also think it's important to encourage partners.
oh, and great job on your feat.
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katydid
May 7, 2004, 11:18 PM
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My partners haven't given me the small fingers "excuse", but they have given me the "you're lucky" (and I guess I am, to have those kinds of partners) ... but I HAVE reminded them that I get into offwidths a lot sooner than they do.
You win some, you lose some.
I put another vote in for "find some new partners". You don't need putdowns like that. Climbing is supposed to be fun.
k.
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climbhigh2005
May 8, 2004, 3:22 PM
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Its just cause its the only excuse they can come up with... and the fact that they got "beat by a girl"... its really stupid actually! however women thses days are kicking butt at all sports and coming in there and beating men... the guys are just getting jealous!
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changling
May 9, 2004, 5:37 AM
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:lol: I often use my skinny, girly, weakling arms as an excuse for sucking at overhangs. It's all in good fun though.
I wasn't there with you, and your post doesn't really describe the tone of the comment and whether it was directed directly towards you or if it was just amongst themselves, but my initial reaction to your post is that you are overreacting. Maybe they were simply stating a fact. Besides, why do you need their acknowledgement for pulling a hard move? When you go out there, expect to have fun. Don't let others determine whether you are a good climber or not. Competitive climbers, male or female, will make excuses. You sound pretty competitve yourself, and you seem rather pissed that they didn't admit that you are better than them at something. Actually, the meanest climbers I've ever come across were always girls. And the guys were always good, not particularly supportive, but they do their thing, and I do mine, and we are all happy and having a good time. If you rather be surrounded by people that would congratulate you, then by all means, find new partners, but don't generalise men like that. If you keep up that kind of attitude, it'll be hard for you to have fun.
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fireclimber
May 10, 2004, 11:15 AM
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Well I have said things like "you should be able to get your fingers in there" but I never would say anything derogitory. You know that you kicked ass, that is all that matters
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cracklover
May 10, 2004, 7:27 PM
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Jerks. One response would be to put 'em down right back. Hit 'em where it hurts. Try this response on for size:
"Yeah, you guys are right, you do have especially big hands and big feet. And you know what they say about guys with big hands and big feet..... two out of three ain't bad!" :lol:
GO
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rvega
May 10, 2004, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: : I wasn't there with you, and your post doesn't really describe the tone of the comment and whether it was directed directly towards you or if it was just amongst themselves, but my initial reaction to your post is that you are overreacting. Maybe they were simply stating a fact. Besides, why do you need their acknowledgement for pulling a hard move? but don't generalise men like that. If you keep up that kind of attitude, it'll be hard for you to have fun.
You are totally right. In rereading my orginal thread I realize that yes I was over reacting. I know those guys meant no offense by their comments. They are all great climbing partners and friends. After having my own partner tell me he was personally offended by my post I do also agree with you that I was being sexist, although not intentionally. I didn't really think about what I was saying. I apologize to anyone who was offended.
I guess my orginal comment was more a statement about how easy it is to assign success by a single attribute like height or finger size when it really all comes down to the whole package. While each of us may have one or two natural advantages, we don't rely on them soley. I try not to let my short (I mean this literally too) comings be an excuse for my failures, and so I was simply a bit miffed that someone else used one of as an excuse for my success.
The qualification of success by "only" is the kicker. I think it should upset everyone when people say that the "only" reason Lynn Hill freed the Nose was because she had little fingers. It was hardly the only reason and to say so is silly. So that is the comment I really wanted to make. Again I apologize to those I may have offended.
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moabbeth
May 11, 2004, 1:29 AM
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In reply to: [ I think it should upset everyone when people say that the "only" reason Lynn Hill freed the Nose was because she had little fingers. It was hardly the only reason and to say so is silly.
Well, I think you're overreacting again. Because her little fingers ARE the single primary reason she's been the only person to free the Nose. It's not a putdown as much as a basic statement of fact. The Great Roof and Changing Corners will shut down 90% of any male's dreams of freeing the Nose due to the need for very small fingers. I don't know why it would "upset" anyone to say that's the only reason she's freed it. I think she should be proud of her tiny little mitts....they got her up something the boys couldn't. Cause there are PLENTY of men who have the ability to free climb at the level the Nose requires - and climb harder than Lynn - but the GR will shut almost all of them down. Why? Their mitts.
Personally my bet on the next person to free the Nose will be Beth Rodden eventually. She's got the moves....and the SMALL FINGERS required for freeing the GR. Not a slam or excuse rvega, but sorry to say it's just the simple physical requirement for anyone wanting to free the Nose.
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pianomahnn
May 11, 2004, 4:01 AM
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When I really sit down and think of it, there is no difference between someone saying, "You only climbed that because you have small fingers" or them saying "You only climbed that because you have stronger tendons, muscles, and core strength."
However, most people wouldn't say the latter. . .
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