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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 6:51 AM
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Does using a rope make you safe?
People are attracted to activities that have a greater perceived risk when compared to the actual risk. Roller coasters and thrill rides are perfect evidence for this. Some of climbing's attraction is based on that same train of thought. The difference with climbing is that there is potentially a much higher level of risk.
People tend to think that having a rope on somehow makes them safe. Does incorporating a climbing rope into your daily activities increase your safety or decrease it? It decreases it, of course. Why is it so popular in spite of that fact? Because, for the average person, at a given skill level, it expands the range of what it is possible to climb. Don't think that the convenience is in anyway a necessity. If they outlawed roped climbing tomorrow, it would still be possible to climb in a safe and reasonable manner.
What is the most important piece of safety equipment or The rope vs the mind? I think some people overate the importance and significance of a climbing rope.
What would the ratio between the importance of your brain compared to a climbing rope in terms of your safety.
Safety Ingredients in a roped climbing situation: aka: the percentage of risk attributable to each factor.
80% brain (knowledge, fear, attitude, )
10% partner
5% (avg route) to ? route, style, rock type (choss), environmental hazards
5% rope/gear
You could play with these numbers some, but this would be in the ballpark. I would probably go for 90 to 95% for the brain. The given numbers are an effort towards impartiality. I think the implications in this way of looking at it are obvious to an open mind. You can mix and match and choose where and how you take your risks.
So many people on this site imply and state that the rope is always a means of staying safe. Would using a rope to belay chossy loose third class terrain be safer or more dangerous? In many situations it would be very unsafe to drag a rope through that kind of terrain. To the point that it is safer to solo the terrain then it would be to use a rope. The approach to the third pillar is a perfect example.
I am sorry but someone who is not capable of climbing safely without a rope is not capable of climbing safely with a rope. This is a fact in my experience particularly whenever you go beyond a top rope. Roped climbing safely involves making choices and taking actions in accordance with the limitations inherent in a climbing rope. People make mistakes in this respect and die. In the same way, free soloing demands climbing within the constraints of that system and people die when they violate the constraints of that system. How many people behave as if they think a rope can somehow protect themselves from the consequences of making stupid decisions. I think many more deaths can be attributed to this than free soloing.
Most people would not think that taking one flight in a small plane would be very risky. But it is a fact that if you do it all the time that small risk can catch up with you. This seems to be fairly common sense and I think it could explain things like Hershey's death or why long time skydivers tend to die.
Fear is a combination of an intuitional appraisal of your risk level and a rational evaluation of the risks. Do you really need the emotional pandering to stay safe? I think the emotional stuff is a double edged sword that cuts both ways. The middle road is better.
How do you define where free soloing starts? The books arbitrarily define it as being 5th class terrain. What is the difference between fourth class and a 5.1? Absolutely nothing. Reality is different. In reality, free soloing starts closer to the range of hard third class. 5.9 climbers are expected to be able to solo downclimb 5.5 to 5.6 at many areas. What would be the equivalent number for a 5.12 climber?
Quantifying risk is a tricky thing. Reasonably informed actuaries don't seem to think that climbers are particularly crazy or dangerous. If this is true then I know it can be extrapolated that soloing is not statistically that dangerous for a reasonably experienced climber.
For example: take a hypothetical average soloer on an average solo V.S. Your average trad climber on an average trad climb. There is no doubt that the injury rate would be significantly higher for the trad climber. Risk of death is open to some debate. Based on my experience, I would think that the rate of deaths is lower for the given average free soloer as well. Think about simul-climbing. Simul-climbing can vary from pretty safe to simul-soloing. How many simul-climbing deaths or injuries have you heard of? I don't recall any, which would seem to indicate that they are relatively rare.
The media's portrayal of free soloing deaths is so distorted as to be virtually useless. The large majority of deaths attributed to free soloing are anything but that. Would use of a rope have saved these people? I don't think so. Most of these cases were caused by people who did not take the time to learn to climb with a rope, let alone without one. One skill inherent in soloing is the ability to sufficiently compensate for the increased danger from the possibility of hold breakage.
Ropes limitations:
Ropes can offer a false sense of security. Sometimes a rope is not going to do any good in a fall, often times without the climber recognizing that fact, often due to being in denial. A rope cannot protect you from yourself. With no knowledge at all, which would be safer, with a rope or without?
People dragging a rope that won't help any and they do not realize it or they are in denial about it? People regularly deal with no fall situations when climbing with a rope. How is this any different from free soloing? I would contend that this roped scenario is more dangerous due to the fact that sometimes people are not aware of the danger and they do not take proper precautions. A free soloist never falls prey to this trap.
A rope is one small part of the overall system we use to climb safely, don't think it is more than it is.
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curt
May 18, 2004, 7:22 AM
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Nice post Dan, and I think you are right on. Mike Reardon's recent exploit of free soloing 250+ routes at Joshua Tree (in a day) drives this point home.
Curt
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scuclimber
May 18, 2004, 7:30 AM
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I agree too. I freesoloed a 5.6 (it wasn't hard, but 40' off the deck without a rope was a new thing for me :wink: ) at Swan Slabs last weekend and noticed how much more focused I was on my hand and foot placements, than when I'm on rope. I felt like I was almost hyper-aware. I really notice a change from the gym, to TR outside, to leading sport outside, to freesoloing (I don't trad yet). I think that that hyper-awareness possibly made it less likely for me to fall, than if I was on rope. My sense of security on rope makes me less careful about where I put my hands and feet, or so it seems. Interesting.
Colin
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timmah
May 18, 2004, 8:53 AM
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Interesting question, interesting answer. I might even agree with you, were it not for the fact that pushing up to and past my limit over and over again - frequently falling - is the quickest way I've found to gain an absolute trust in my abilities. I'm happy with soloing below my limit, but only after I'm absolutely sure where my limit lies.
So in this instance, yes - the rope makes me safe(r), even when I'm not using it.
Tim
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 6:35 PM
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Thanks Curt
Colin
I think everyone should consciously solo at least once for that exact reason.
Tim
A properly used rope can make climbing safer, but it cannot make it safe. Other then that I wouldn't disagree.
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rocdaug
May 18, 2004, 6:56 PM
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In my opinion, your brain is what keeps you safe, not the rope.
However, as someone new to the sport, my brain tells me that the system, a part of which is the rope, keeps me safe. Anchors, strong placements, a rope in climbing condition, gear in good repair, and the knowledge of how to use it all are all part of the system that I use to make climbing safe for ME.
Maybe, someday I will no longer feel that the safety system serves me. But at the moment I cannot see that day approaching.
My concern, and I've voiced this before, is that glorifying the free-solo practice MAY lead inexperienced climbers to attempt this aspect of climbing before they are ready. The consequences of which CAN be fatal.
my 2bits (fire at will)
rd
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vertical_reality
May 18, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: People tend to think that having a rope on somehow makes them safe.
The rope may not make them any safer but it sure as hell can keep them from getting killed.
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frolic
May 18, 2004, 7:23 PM
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Interesting post, Dan. Out of cuiosity - what inspired you to write it?
The sense of security crated by using a rope is only false when people don't know what they're doing - you need to know when/where to use a rope (like y'all have been saying), but also how to belay, set your anchors, place the necessary gear, etc.
Not to make light of the subject, but here's my hypothesis:
Ropes are like condoms. (1) They are quite effective protection as long as you use them correctly but (2) that's no reason to go and do something stupid that you wouldn't otherwise do, and (3) learning how to use them correctly often requires practice with a more experienced partner. :mrgreen:
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cchildre
May 18, 2004, 7:24 PM
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I have always thought of the rope as a tool to increase my safety. If you look in my garage I have a lot of tools and they do a lot of things but there is no end all tool that does it everything. My tools only work when I employ them in their proper manner. The same goes for my rope. If I use the rope in an improper manner then it is likely to fail. This goes for all my gear, it is just a little more obvious with things like cams and nuts.
I am fairly new to rock climbing and I have been doing a mad dash through various forms of climbing. Started on toprope like most of us. I remember the first time that I led a sport route, it was like starting all over again. It played some games with my head. Now I have moved on to Traditional climbing. If leading a sport route is like checkers then leading a trad route would be chess. Totally destroyed my confidence. I was just on 5.10's and now I am struggling with a 5.8. The mental toughness and concentration needed was so much greater than I thought it would be. Usually after a full day of sport climbing I go home physically drained but after a few routes leading trad I was mentally drained.
The mental aspect is often overlooked. I think this stems from the fact that to be involved in the rock climbing community you already need to have a certain mental toughness to even top rope. I have many friend that think toproping is crazy.
This has been a great string. I have been to a few 5.6's that I flew up and really wanted to free solo but did not because of the whole stigma reguarding it. I know I could FS both routes no problem. I think my biggest fear on a free solo is a hand hold failing. Mostly because it happend to me a decade ago, pulled off a 400 pound boulder, 20' fall, broken femur (not mine), it was ugly (see the accident section LOL).
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holmeslovesguinness
May 18, 2004, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: I am sorry but someone who is not capable of climbing safely without a rope is not capable of climbing safely with a rope. This is a fact in my experience particularly whenever you go beyond a top rope. Roped climbing safely involves making choices and taking actions in accordance with the limitations inherent in a climbing rope.
In general I agree with you, but I think you need to distinguish between 'capable' and 'willing' here. You make it sound like you have to be a ballsy free soloist to climb safely without a rope. An awareness of ones limitations is the most important thing. There have certainly been times on some run out trad routes where I have, in essence, been soloing, and I was well aware of that fact. So I am 'capable' of soloing, but in general I try to avoid those situations because I don't enjoy soloing.
But in any case, no arguement that a rope (or any gear for that matter) is no subsitute for good judgement and experience, which seems to be the point you are trying to make here.
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gds
May 18, 2004, 8:03 PM
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Interesting thread!
I'd add that often in leading trad routes a form of "semi soloing" takes place. This involves the decsions afftecting how one climbs the route to optimize pro or moves. So, I for one will often decide not to move toward a placement if my read of the rock is that the climbing is better/easier/safer somewhere else. So the decsionis between getting in a piece and running it out on (more) comfortable terrain.
And to me this is a big part of the attraction of trad climbing. And when the runouts start hitting 20-30 feet it seems alot like free soloing to me.
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cchildre
May 18, 2004, 8:08 PM
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A quick addition to this good point. Some climbers will react differently to a no rope situation. The rope can be at certain times nothing more than a safety blanket of sorts, like on a long trad runout. It really does not do us any good, but it does have a calming effect of sorts. Some will free solo with out giving it much thought at all, while others would freeze up in the first 10 feet because they cannot overcome the absence of the rope. Everyone is different in this matter.
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j_ung
May 18, 2004, 8:32 PM
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I think my opinions have pretty much been covered by others so far. Just want to say - interesting post. I'm gonna think about this more. Thanks.
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climboard
May 18, 2004, 8:38 PM
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Nice post, I agree with most of it.
Free soloing has such a stigma attached to it that a lot of climbers (usually less experienced ones) see it as a black and white situation (soloing is dangerous!).
There are many different degrees of danger in this sport and it is up to the individual to decide what is an acceptable level of risk. Soloing near my onsight level is not an acceptable risk to me but soloing 3rd or 4th class is.
I have also been on pitches where there is little or no protection and therefore it is safer to simulsolo then to be roped up.
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Interesting post, Dan. Out of cuiosity - what inspired you to write it?
I will try to answer that.
People are regularly exposed to no fall situations, often times without ever having been aware of it. Approaches and descents for example, easy runouts, setting up top ropes, hiking, etc.
There comes a time in almost everyone's climbing history when something happens to where it is necessary to climb without a ropes protection. This typically happens at the worst conceivable time. This is not the time to learn how to go solo.
Many times on otherwise well protected routes there are sections where you absolutely cannot fall without getting hurt or dying. If you are doing this with a rope you should be able to do it without a rope. If you cannot do it without a rope you should not be doing it with a rope.
Over reliance on a rope is dangerous. It is better to rely on yourself and use the rope as an additional backup as was intended.
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gds
May 18, 2004, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Interesting post, Dan. Out of cuiosity - what inspired you to write it? Many times on otherwise well protected routes there are sections where you absolutely cannot fall without getting hurt or dying. If you are doing this with a rope you should be able to do it without a rope. If you cannot do it without a rope you should not be doing it with a rope. Over reliance on a rope is dangerous. It is better to rely on yourself and use the rope as an additional backup as was intended.
Yes! and this is not much different from the old phrase "the leader must not fall"
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I am sorry but someone who is not capable of climbing safely without a rope is not capable of climbing safely with a rope. This is a fact in my experience particularly whenever you go beyond a top rope. Roped climbing safely involves making choices and taking actions in accordance with the limitations inherent in a climbing rope. In general I agree with you, but I think you need to distinguish between 'capable' and 'willing' here. You make it sound like you have to be a ballsy free soloist to climb safely without a rope.
A ballsy free soloist is a dead free soloist.
You need to recognize when you are soloing with a rope. People are willing to solo with a useless rope tied to their waist, but not without one? How much sense does that make?
I find the term climber to be synonymous with free soloist. It is just a matter of degree.
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tech_dog
May 18, 2004, 9:42 PM
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Some people seem to love the risk of climbing. Personally, I love the THRILL of climbing and don't need the risk.
I take pride in technique, education, equipment, and discipline that reduces the risk of death as much as possible. Double biners, locking biners, equalization, double pro, and a brand new rope are all my friends.
I'll climb till I have nothing left. I'll fall with a smile on my face. At the same time, my goal is to make the climbing less risky than the 2 1/2 hour drive to Josh.
That's one great thing about climbing. Everyone can do it their own way.
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holmeslovesguinness
May 18, 2004, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: I find the term climber to be synonymous with free soloist. It is just a matter of degree.
Hmmm... I guess we all have our own definition of a 'climber' but I honestly don't think that most people who rock climb would consider themselves to be free soloists. I personally see a big difference between having to deal with the occasional mank gear, run out, etc on an otherwise well protected route and climbing without a rope altogether. In one case you have to be flawless on just one section of the route, in the other case you have zero margin for error the entire time you are climbing.
But again, your point seems to be that you have to know when you have no room for error, rope or no rope, so in that sense I agree 100% with what you are saying.
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curt
May 18, 2004, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: People tend to think that having a rope on somehow makes them safe. The rope may not make them any safer but it sure as hell can keep them from getting killed.
Are you saying that no climber has ever been killed in a fall if they were tied into a rope? I think this is part of Dan's point--that sometimes you are essentially free soloing while leading, but with the rope there you may not appreciate the true seriousness of the situation you are in.
Curt
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gds
May 18, 2004, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: sometimes you are essentially free soloing while leading, but with the rope there you may not appreciate the true seriousness of the situation you are in. Curt
Amen!
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robmcc
May 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: It decreases it, of course.
No, I'd have to disagree. It doesn't decrease it. Have you never fallen unexpectedly? My first lead fall was totally unexpected, and I was overconfident enough at that point that I would probably have tried to solo things I shouldn't have. The rope provides a means by which you are vastly more likely to survive the fall than without it.
The idea that safety equipment makes us less cautious is interesting, but I think untrue. Extend it to anything else. Are we more careful drivers when we don't wear our seatbelts? How about construction workers I often see tethered to something or other so that if they do fall, they don't hit the ground? If your theory is correct, why don't we just do away with safety equipment and just be safe?
I think a lot of people, myself certainly included, are prone to overestimate our confidence and put ourselves in situation where we could get hurt. In my climbing prime, I used to regard the rope not as something to keep me from getting hurt, but something to make it unlikely that I'd be killed. I considered it still possible, and still likely that if I took a big fall I'd get hurt, but I expected to live.
I'd also point to the tourons who manage to get themselves killed by goofing off too close to the edge of the cliff, or the "climbers" in accident reports who were really hikers without a shred of climbing equipment or experience. Sure, elite climbers may have a vast store of experience to use to tell them when they're in danger, and when they're just way above the ground but in no danger of falling, but there are quite a few of us below that threshhold who aren't always sure where the line between excitement and danger lies. That rope lets me live to tell the tale when I'm wrong.
Rob
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It decreases it, of course. No, I'd have to disagree. It doesn't decrease it. Have you never fallen unexpectedly? My first lead fall was totally unexpected, and I was overconfident enough at that point that I would probably have tried to solo things I shouldn't have. The rope provides a means by which you are vastly more likely to survive the fall than without it.
I think you missed the point of that comment.
Average joe on the street goes out and buys a rope to start climbing. Typically, this is not going to make his life a safer one.
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alpnclmbr1
May 18, 2004, 11:27 PM
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Let get something clear here. I am not advocating anybody doing anything to increase the risks inherent in climbing, as far as I am concerned, they are plenty high enough. Completely the opposite is true.
Getting competent at placing gear and building anchors, leading, etc, are all very important skills to learn. But being safe does not end there and that is what I am trying to talk about.
One more try.
Did you ever climb trees as a kid? Did you ever climb so high that you might get hurt if you blew it? Crazy unsafe kids huh? Most kids are crazy yet most kids do not die.
I think that these kids have a vitally important skill that most adults have long since forgotten. They instinctively know how to climb safely without a rope.
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epic_ed
May 18, 2004, 11:39 PM
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I'm not buying it. Does a rope make me "safe?" Certainly not. But safer than if I was free soloing. I don't have the mental constitution to solo. Don't have the confidence in my abilities to perform consistently move after move without making a mistake. Are you suggesting I shouldn't be climbing?
Soloing for me is much more dangerous than roped climbing. I'm not under the incorrect imperception that what I'm doing is entirely safe, though, just because I'm using a rope.
Ed
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