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gawd
May 19, 2004, 5:33 PM
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I have a question, why is the route database just the information copied straight from the guidebooks of the area?? It seems a bit dumb, I mean most people will have the guidebook and would rather have other personal notes on a climb. Also I would think that the publisher might be interested in the plageurism of their autohors hardwork??
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petsfed
May 19, 2004, 5:36 PM
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Which area are you complaining about?
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gawd
May 19, 2004, 5:51 PM
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All the ones in the midwest, the ones located in the Oregon area and so on. I see plageurism throughout all of them. Kinda pointless to just copy the guidebooks don't you think?
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biff
May 19, 2004, 6:01 PM
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In the Area I manage, Alberta, much of the information is first hand accouts of the routes.
Things like, This route has a few untrustworthy bolts. Traverese left after the second bolt.
And there are actually a few areas in the Routes DB for Alberta that don't have a guidebook.
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overlord
May 19, 2004, 6:27 PM
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this was debated before.
you can only say "traverse right after the first bolt" in so many ways.
you can add personal experieces when you add an ascent.
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tim
May 19, 2004, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: I have a question, why is the route database just the information copied straight from the guidebooks of the area?? It seems a bit dumb, I mean most people will have the guidebook and would rather have other personal notes on a climb. Also I would think that the publisher might be interested in the plageurism of their autohors hardwork??
beats me, you will probably want to kick this over to whoever is managing the section in question. some information about routes (# of bolts, grade, etc.) is treated as 'factual' and not subject to copyright (eg. if I say "water is wet" and then attempt to sue anyone who repeats that, it will be thrown out of court). On the other hand, if people are copying descriptions and opinions of the author verbatim, that is clearly plagiarism and needs to be deleted. Post some URLs and if no one else wants to take care of the problem, I will. (The copyright assignations and terms of use need to be clarified anyways)
In cases where specific instances are reported, the policy is to delete them. Someone who's climbed the route or scoped it, rather than ripping off a guidebook author's work, can always add the 'missing' information back. (which is preferable anyways, since otherwise you get a colossal circle-jerk of bad beta, like what happened for years with the S. Face of Charlotte Dome, due to people mindlessly parroting secondhand information)
Randy Vogel, who has written about a handful of routes over the years, and Mike Reardon, who has climbed a few of them and makes his money off of copyright assignations, helped shake this out recently, and that's where the legal and ethical matter in the first paragraph comes from. One of the damaging aspects of the idiotic 'points' system was that it encouraged people to fill in lots of plagiarized information just to get worthless 'points' and appear on the front page. Thank ghod that died a grisly death...
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boss
May 19, 2004, 6:39 PM
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Anyone who climbs extensively in a certain area is going to have a guide book for said area anyway. I have yet to see anyone at the crag with a laptop and mobile connection browsing the routes database for their next climb.
Boss
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gawd
May 20, 2004, 4:58 PM
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Tim,
Palisade Head in Minnesota and Broughton's Bluff in Portland are both to blatently copied sections.
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andy_lemon
May 20, 2004, 5:14 PM
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Dude, you catagorized the whole midwest in one of your posts... List some more areas than just Minnesota if your going to do that.
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tim
May 20, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: Tim, Palisade Head in Minnesota and Broughton's Bluff in Portland are both to blatently copied sections.
ok, will kick Broughton's Bluff over to T and I don't yet know who runs Minnesota but that'll have to get cleaned up too, I guess. thanks
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tim
May 20, 2004, 5:23 PM
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tim moved this thread from General to Area Managers.
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tim
May 20, 2004, 5:24 PM
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tim moved this thread from Area Managers to Suggestions & Questions.
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tim
May 20, 2004, 5:25 PM
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sorry about the rapid-fire moves, I just realized that Area MAnagers is limited to... (drum roll) ... Area MAnagers. So I'll post a link to this instead, that way other ripoff areas can be documented in public.
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rrrADAM
May 20, 2004, 5:25 PM
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Should delete the copied descriptions... Contact the AM for this state.
Like this hasn't been hashed out many times over, and just 2 weeks ago even.
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fredrogers
May 20, 2004, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: Anyone who climbs extensively in a certain area is going to have a guide book for said area anyway. I have yet to see anyone at the crag with a laptop and mobile connection browsing the routes database for their next climb. Boss
I think this is a very important point by Boss. If you want the nitty gritty details of each and every route then go buy a guidebook. But if you are just considering visiting an area you may want some general ideas about the area first, and that's where the RC.com database should shine. That's why I think all the areas in the database need to be written with the visiting newcomer in mind. People need to include camping beta, directions, access issues, and comments about what is the best guide to buy for the area. Locals can often provide the best info but can be the most loathe to give up the beta.
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punkclimber52
May 20, 2004, 5:33 PM
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andy_lemon wrote:
In reply to: Dude, you catagorized the whole midwest in one of your posts... List some more areas than just Minnesota if your going to do that.
gawd wrote:
In reply to: I have a question, why is the route database just the information copied straight from the guidebooks of the area?? It seems a bit dumb, I mean most people will have the guidebook and would rather have other personal notes on a climb. Also I would think that the publisher might be interested in the plageurism of their autohors hardwork??
Actually, he didn't just categorize the midwest, he categorized the entire route database on rc.com.
Here's why i like the route database, whether it's got information on it from other guidebooks or not, i can look up routes to somewhere i might be traveling too, but don't have access to the guidebooks or topos until i get there.
I've lived in Oklahoma and Indiana before moving to AZ. When i go back to visit, i can check out any good climbing areas around where i'll be staying, then i can go get a topo for that specific area when i get there.
Most people will go ahead and get a guidebook even if the info is in the route database.
On top of all that, have you checked various guidebooks on the same locations before, they usually say the same thing.
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shanz
May 20, 2004, 5:44 PM
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that was a generalization though i been climbing for a couple years now i have no access to a guide book for my area because it has been out of print for some time i have used the database, and word of mouth mostly to learn these climbs though i learned to climb them on my own not from a guide--come on print the new vert heartland already!!!!!!! lol
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andy_lemon
May 20, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: Actually, he didn't just categorize the midwest, he categorized the entire route database on rc.com.
No... actually, he catagorized all the areas in the midwest and in Oregon.
In reply to: Which ones are you talking about?
In reply to: All the ones in the midwest, the ones located in the Oregon area and so on. |
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