in 2001 there were more than 28,000 firearm related deaths in the usa.

(from the national center of injury prevention and control)
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_fy.html

scary!! glad i live in Canada. here it's only squamish hooligan teenagers that terrorize!

peace

If you're going to quote stats, at least be honest enough to post how they are comprised...

Murders with firearms (per capita)
01. South Africa 0.74 per 1000 people
02. Colombia 0.52 per 1000 people
03. Thailand 0.31 per 1000 people
04. Zimbabwe 0.04 per 1000 people
05. Mexico 0.03 per 1000 people
06. Costa Rica 0.03 per 1000 people
07. Belarus 0.03 per 1000 people
08. United States 0.02 per 1000 people

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/.../cri_mur_wit_fir_cap

The guy shot the other guy because he was pissed about the dogs. If he had been afraid for his life he would of shot the dogs, not the person. Three center mass shots is not panic.

He will probably get away with it, but as far as I am concerned, he murdered that person.

first, i wouldn't be bragging--look at the company you keep.

second, bigdrop, can you verify that 2 mil prevented crimes?

...we don't have even close to the per capita crime rate you have...

The guy shot the other guy because he was pissed about the dogs. If he had been afraid for his life he would of shot the dogs, not the person. Three center mass shots is not panic.

He will probably get away with it, but as far as I am concerned, he murdered that person.

And you are a jerk for posting this in this context.

If you're going to quote stats, at least be honest enough to post how they are comprised...

The majority of firearms deaths are suicides.
Then we have police action shootings.
Then we have violent criminals.

FWIW: Drownings in swimming pools far outweigh the number of firearms related deaths each year.

It should also be known that over 2,000,000 crimes are thwarted each year, by law abiding gun owners that use them to STOP crimes in progress.

Is it worth your life? How many times has this situation been played out at the crags with agressive dogs that the owner swears, "He is always well behaved and has never done this before!" Whether or not the killing was justified, and I am not saying it is, it is a fact of life and the "killer" was acting in a manner consistant with his rights under the law.

it is a fact of life and the "killer" was acting in a manner consistant with his rights under the law.

Imagine you are just taking it easy and 3 dogs come up and start attacking you. You fire a warning shot, and then all of a sudden not only is it three dogs, but now a stranger is running at you yelling who knows what, and seems to also now be threatening you....

i love Canada; you never come across people carring semi-automatic guns while hiking.

I am sure that everyone reading that can say with 100% confidence that they would say, "Excuse me sir, but could you please call off your dogs that are attacking me?" Right???

But God Damn, you don't have to shoot the fellow! That's murder, plain simple. What the f#$k was the guy doing with a gun anyhow?? Carry a stick, if you must, even a big one. That way, next time you get scared, someone ends up with a couple of bruises - not DEAD.

How is this incident related to rock climbing?

If I am an ass for bringing this up, and if just one dog owner comes to realization that letting their dogs off their leashes where they shouldn't be is not a good idea, then I'll accept that. I have seen dogs bite kids and adults at the crags several times. You think that people packing heat at the crag is far fetched? LOL, you have no idea! Hang out around the dirt pit at Rifle for awhile and hear the stories....

A friggin idiot shoots someone and that is related to dogs at a crag? In what way?

Are you seriously maintaining that climbers should take gun toting idiots into account when they make plans to go climbing?

You are, aren't you. That is wild.

Man, you just don;t get it do you? Have you been to the Happy's in the last 5 years? Have you been to Rifle? The # of dogs at the crags is ridiculous and the number of dog "problems/encounters" only grows every day. The other day I went climbing at an area that has a HUGE sign with a dog and a big red circle with a slash through clearly indicating that DOGS ARE NOT ALLOWED, and too boot, this area is access sensitive, is frequented reguarly by horseback riders, and guess what I saw when I got there?

Not just one, but two parties with dogs :( This is just downright unacceptable IMO. Does that mean that I am "looking for a fight" as it is related to dogs... maybe..... But certainly I would say it is with due cause not over zealous persecution of the average dog owner. Read that "Dog Bites" link I posted above and think about how many go unreported?

Dog bites are just one of the issues. Access cocnerns specifically related to climbers are impacted by climbers who own dogs and could care less about their impacts effect each and everyone of us. When the public perception is that climbers are analagous to irresponsible dog owners who could care less for local laws and public saftey, I have a problem with that.

Shooting of dog-walker called justified


Grant Kuenzli (shown with his Labrador retriever, Maggie) was killed May 11 on a forest trail north of Payson.

Payson-area trail death deemed self-defense

Peter Corbett
The Arizona Republic
May. 22, 2004 12:00 AM


It was a common Arizona hiking confrontation: big, unleashed dogs on a trail, turning a peaceful walk in the woods into a frightening ordeal of snarling teeth and vicious barking.

Usually it is settled with words, sometimes angry. This time it turned deadly.

Coconino County sheriff's detectives say the shooting of 43-year-old Grant Kuenzli was a justifiable homicide. But the victim's friends say he was a peaceful man who had volunteered to take a couple of dogs from an animal shelter out for exercise and didn't deserve to die.

The encounter occurred 11 days ago near Payson, when Kuenzli was hiking through the woods on the Pine Canyon Trail with his dog, a yellow Labrador retriever named Maggie, and two other dogs, a chow and a German shepherd mix.

The dogs, which were not on leashes, ran ahead and apparently startled Harold Fish, a 57-year-old retiree from Phoenix, according to sheriff's Detective Scott Feagan.

Fish, who was carrying a 10mm semiautomatic pistol in a holster, felt threatened, Feagan said, and fired a warning shot into the ground near the dogs and then three shots at Kuenzli, all of which hit him in the chest.

"Our investigation leads us to believe this is a situation of self-defense," Feagan said. "(Fish) was under attack."

Fish could not be reached for comment. There were no other witnesses.

Payson retiree John McCauley, 73, who befriended Kuenzli at Payson's dog park, described him as "a very gentle person" who loved dogs and the outdoors.

McCauley and others in Payson who knew Kuenzli said it does not add up that he and his dogs would have been a threat to another hiker.

Feagan related Fish's account of the shooting:

Kuenzli's barking dogs charged at Fish, who yelled at Kuenzli to call them off. Fish fired a warning shot when the lead dog, the chow, was within 6 feet of him.

Fish looked up and saw Kuenzli running down the hill, fists clenched, and yelling at him. He warned him to stop. Kuenzli charged forward. Fish shot him three times.

Fish then hiked out and flagged down a passer-by to alert the Sheriff's Department. Kuenzli was dead when the paramedics arrive.

Fish had no wounds from the dogs.

Both Kuenzli and Fish were each about 5 feet 10 inches tall and weighed close to 200 pounds.

Feagan said the chow that charged Fish has a documented history of aggression.

That is disputed by Larry Stubbs, Payson Humane Society president.

Kuenzli, who volunteered at the Payson shelter, had taken the chow and shepherd out for a hike with Maggie, a therapy dog that he took to senior centers.

Stubbs, a retired Phoenix police officer, said the shelter would have euthanized either dog if it was vicious.

He said the Sheriff's Department had not contacted him.

McCauley said he believes that Kuenzli probably yelled at Fish not to kill his dogs.

"I don't think the guy who shot him was doing anything malicious," McCauley said.

"I just think he overreacted."

William Boa, a Mesa police volunteer for 14 years and a gun instructor, said a dog could be considered a lethal weapon.

"The question is: Are you in fear of your life and did you take a reasonable action?" said Boa, who teaches a concealed-weapons permit course.

Fish had a permit but was carrying his pistol openly, which is legal in Arizona.

A warning shot might indicate that Fish had time to flee, Boa said.

"Personally, I would have shot the dog first," he said.

Although detectives say the shooting appears to have been justified, they do intend to present the case to a Coconino County grand jury.

It will be several weeks before any results are known.

McCauley said he is concerned that Kuenzli will be portrayed to a grand jury as homeless and a "loose cannon."

Kuenzli was living in the woods near Payson, but he showered and shaved every day and was well-adjusted, McCauley said.

He worked as a fire inspector for the Gilbert Fire Department from July 1998 to April 1999.

Kuenzli also had a Web site listing himself as a pet photographer and appeared on an Internet listing of Arizonans for Howard Dean.

"He had plenty of money, a bank account and a $1,000 check on him when he was killed," McCauley said.

Stubbs, of the Payson Humane Society, said people in Payson are wondering how the shooting could have happened.

"He was such mild-mannered guy, they can't understand it," Stubbs said.