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keithlester
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May 31, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Two of my pals, Sandy and Davie, just spent two days working on an overhanging dihedral crack problem, mostly strenuous lay-backing, with plenty of cursing, two leader falls, and alot of hang dogging, before finally sending it. They gave it 5.10d because it was so desparate.
The other four climbers in the group, including a novice proceeded to repeat ascend the problem, mostly by stemming, with one big pull-up on mini jugs over an overhanging section of wall.
How can we tell the F/A's that we consider the grade to be about low 5.9 without everyone getting embarrassed, and worse than that, run the risk of falling out over it? :?
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doktor_g
May 31, 2004, 5:30 PM
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First, the right of rating is ALWAYS achieved by consent. Naysayers and player haters do down-rate other's climbs just to make themselves feel better, but if the climb goes easier than 10d, you should say so. Be nice. Remember though, that traditionally climbs are rated for their single hardest move and only recently has the whole sustained 5.9 = 5.10 type of stuff been accepted (and only in some areas). Also, remember that that 5.10d rating is for an "on-sight lead," not a top rope. To place the pro it may be important to do those nasty lie-backs then pull in, inspect the pro that you just placed blindly, get back into the lie-back and continue climbing. Sure, that's much harder than stemming. Just some ideas I guess.
-Dr.G
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redpoint73
May 31, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Ratings are by concensus, not just what the FA claims. They should be understanding if other people's opinion of the rating differs from their own. If there would really be a "falling out" just because some friends disagreed about a rating, then I would say they are not real friends at all. At least not the type of friends that I would want to have.
Its not unheard of for a route to feel harder if the wrong (or different)technique is used. I have even seen guidebook descriptions that say something like "the proper technique will be needed to keep the route 5.12".
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keithlester
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May 31, 2004, 5:40 PM
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We did come to a sort of compromise, without falling out. Its "Told you I could fly"
http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=44935
Search on that in the routes database and I think what I said should go some way to helping avoid the embarrassment. :oops:
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njbourne
Jun 4, 2004, 9:03 PM
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Have the FA try it again on TR and see what he thinks. I would think about the level of communication I have to have before I'm cool with climbing with someone.
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bandycoot
Jun 4, 2004, 9:45 PM
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Who cares what the rating is if you seriously think you could have a "falling out" over it. Then again, if they're that stupid/petty so drop you as a friend to rerating something they climbed, F-em.
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coclimber26
Jun 4, 2004, 11:35 PM
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I agree it should be a concensus grade. At the Garden of the Gods area routes are always changing due to the soft sandstone breaking and grades are constantly changing. You did the right thing as long as it was tactfull.
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keithlester
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Jun 6, 2004, 2:30 PM
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In reply to: Who cares what the rating is if you seriously think you could have a "falling out" over it. Then again, if they're that stupid/petty so drop you as a friend to rerating something they climbed, F-em.
I'd rather drop the whole idea than make a fool of my friends, we do climb together and everybody in our small group is a regular guy, only trouble is we did the same thing to them before and its a bit embarrasing to keep re-grading your friend's FA's downwards. Something about nobody liking a smartass, ring any bells?
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overlord
Jun 6, 2004, 4:25 PM
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i read your report. if the hidden holds are considered to be on the route, its the FAers faul they didnt find them. maybe !their! route was 10d, but with the hidden holds its probably easier. especially if theyre mini jugs. sometimes youre glad if you find a bad sloper.
and whats considered "on route". the concensus here is that "on route" is everything within 1-1.5m off the line in the guide (or the line the FAers took in this case) in both directions, or the middle line between two routes if theyre closer.
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overlord
Jun 6, 2004, 4:28 PM
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PS. i forgot to write how no to offend them (for future cases, since you managed it fine this time):
something like "man, i found two bomber holds. it must be easier now" or "its easier to use a drop knee" or "that smear there really help, didnt you see it" or somethng like that. you have to imply that they didnt make a mistake in the rating, just that you found an easier way to climb it.
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flying_dutchman
Jun 6, 2004, 6:02 PM
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a climb is always easier when ur not on the sharp end of the rope. Topropers shouldn't be downgrading routes cause, well, they're toproping.
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keithlester
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Jun 6, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: a climb is always easier when ur not on the sharp end of the rope. Topropers shouldn't be downgrading routes cause, well, they're toproping.
In this case I followed but the guy who led the route says the same as me. I never just assessed the route from a top-rope. In previous cases I have also led these guys routes and had the same problem of re-assessing downward. In this case I also assesed all the stances for placing gear, icluding below the crux moves and feel I cxan give a fair assessment of the grade, in consensus with all the other climbers who did the route that day, including a relative novice who would never have come close to sending it if it was 10d
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jv
Jun 6, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: How can we tell the F/A's that we consider the grade to be about low 5.9 without everyone getting embarrassed, and worse than that, run the risk of falling out over it? :?
JV
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keithlester
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Jun 7, 2004, 4:35 AM
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Not turkeys, this is my friends. Any way you might of climbed it and made it a 10d, ever thought of that. I wasn't trying to rubbish their achievement, a Fa is a FA after all, and I know its always easier once you know a climb has been done. The only reason nobody else got on it before Dave and Sandy finished it is respect. It was their project, n you dont steal somebody elses project, not in our small friendly group.
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offwidthclimber
Jun 7, 2004, 5:09 AM
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wow... are you kidding me?
it should go down something like:
you: "dude, it's 5.9 max..."
friend: "what? no way!"
you: "try stemming. liebacking is for suckers."
friend: "what?"
you: "no reasonable person would lieback that line, unless they had no technique..."
friend: "f-uc-k you"
you: "i love you too."
friend: "whatever, lets get some beers"
you: "are you sure? you've gotta be beat from all that strenuous 5.10d climbing"
friend: "f-uc-k you"
you: "i already told you i love you"
you: "i'll buy the first round, hardman.
you: [loudly] "I HAVE A F-UC-KING LEGEND FOR A FRIEND!"
friend: "asshole"
you: "that's why you love me... HARDMAN!"
friend: [either laughs, or punches you, then laughs]
then, you drink beers and your friend talks shit about the stupid things you've done.
besides, plugging pro while stemming is generally easier than liebacking and makes checking your placements easier.
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roughster
Jun 7, 2004, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: a climb is always easier when ur not on the sharp end of the rope. Topropers shouldn't be downgrading routes cause, well, they're toproping.
Bingo! Until you send on lead, you have no basis to downrate it on! Whether or not you "think" you know how it would feel, the fact remains, you don't. If you send it on lead, feel free to downrate it if you still feel that way, but downrating it based upon hypothetically thinking you know how you would feel if you were in theory on lead is lame.
If it is 5.9 you should have no probs stepping up to the plate and leading it :) Your friend will take it much less more personally if you actually lead and RP it, then if you just propose downrating it about hypotheticals.
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offwidthclimber
Jun 7, 2004, 6:08 AM
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whatever...
leading can be a bit of a mind f-uc-k if the pro is crap. otherwise, in my experience, removing a cam or nut, re-racking it, and then shouldering the sling is just as physically strenuous as leading the pitch and placing the pro. you're hanging out just as long, unless you're a leader who doesn't know your pro and has to fumble with pieces to find the right size.
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jv
Jun 7, 2004, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Not turkeys, this is my friends. Any way you might of climbed it and made it a 10d, ever thought of that. I wasn't trying to rubbish their achievement, a Fa is a FA after all, and I know its always easier once you know a climb has been done. The only reason nobody else got on it before Dave and Sandy finished it is respect. It was their project, n you dont steal somebody elses project, not in our small friendly group.
JV
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keithlester
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Jun 7, 2004, 3:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: a climb is always easier when ur not on the sharp end of the rope. Topropers shouldn't be downgrading routes cause, well, they're toproping. Bingo! Until you send on lead, you have no basis to downrate it on! Whether or not you "think" you know how it would feel, the fact remains, you don't. If you send it on lead, feel free to downrate it if you still feel that way, but downrating it based upon hypothetically thinking you know how you would feel if you were in theory on lead is lame. If it is 5.9 you should have no probs stepping up to the plate and leading it :) Your friend will take it much less more personally if you actually lead and RP it, then if you just propose downrating it about hypotheticals.
You are right of course. I'm gonna lead it next time out, this coming weekend and then discuss it with them in a manly fashion, over a few beers. Till then I might shut the f-uc-k up.
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brianinslc
Jun 7, 2004, 4:04 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: a climb is always easier when ur not on the sharp end of the rope. Topropers shouldn't be downgrading routes cause, well, they're toproping. Bingo! Until you send on lead, you have no basis to downrate it on! Whether or not you "think" you know how it would feel, the fact remains, you don't. If you send it on lead, feel free to downrate it if you still feel that way, but downrating it based upon hypothetically thinking you know how you would feel if you were in theory on lead is lame.
Disagree. I think an experienced and well travelled climber can rate a route either after a TR or a lead. And...sometimes...I think its easier to rate a route on TR so you can judge the difficulty of the individual moves rather than worrying about pro.
One difference would be a lieback vs a jam/stem type problem, though. Where your body position would account for placing pro as well as climbing. Then there's can be a big difference in how a route "feels" as far as difficulty goes.
If you climb the route, regardless of where the rope is, then you have all the basis you need to rate the route. Especially if you're pullin' the same moves.
And...sometimes after leading a route...I'll go back and reclimb it on TR to more accurately figure out the rating.
Rating climbs is never exact anyway. Does seem to involve ego a touch...
Brian in SLC
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unabonger
Jun 7, 2004, 4:31 PM
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The climb is merely as hard as it is, regardless of todays rating.
The rating will evolve over time seperately from you or your friend's emotional attachments. They, and you, can really just let it go because its not your business anymore.
By the way, I did this thing Sunday evening in my Chacos with a watermelon tied to my ass and only two wobbly #9 hexes for pro. (Apologies to CB).
Oh, and it's 5.8, max.
UB
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mworking
Jun 7, 2004, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: I'd rather drop the whole idea than make a fool of my friends,
In reply to: Two of my pals, Sandy and Davie,
Looks to me like you already have.
Isn't grade the rating of the hardest move? (Someone else wrote is was too.) Pro is optional. Sure it makes things feel different, but it doesn’t change the difficulty of the hardest move. Rate it on top rope cause that’s how hard the moves are. Then decide how safe it is to lead and assign it a protection rating. For I know you are writing about a sport route.
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j_ung
Jun 7, 2004, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: We did come to a sort of compromise, without falling out. Its "Told you I could fly" http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=44935 Search on that in the routes database and I think what I said should go some way to helping avoid the embarrassment. :oops:
Looks like you already solved the problem! :)
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