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j_ung
Jul 1, 2004, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The high court sided with angry officials from two counties who complained that District Judge James M. Honeycutt had taken it upon himself to change courtroom procedures. In reply to: "Basically, the judge swore in his own witnesses," Shipwash said. "I think this decision returns this court to the people instead of like a dictatorship of one judge." This is the issue I was going for. Our system was built upon a defined Christian belief. Our laws were created to be fair and equal for the benefit of ALL in our "melting pot". The underlining basis for this can be attributed to the Bible and Jesus Christ who is fair and just to all. I believe that our judicial system can be biased because of who rules the gavel on that particular day. Look at Ruth Bader Ginsberg (the most liberal judge in America who sits on the highest seat in the Supreme Court, interpreting the law her own way). This is the issue. It would be pretty stupid to say, "In Judge [man] We Trust" now wouldn't it.
:?:
Sorry, but it's still not clear which issue you were going for.
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joe
Jul 1, 2004, 3:55 PM
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i don't have a problem with god, it's his fan club i can't stand.
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:00 PM
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That liberal judges in an attempt to create an environment of "equality for all" and "sensitivity to everyone's need", purposefully twisting laws and proceedings, instead of interpretting following an already fair and balanced system. Make no mistake, they cloak their agendas with some socialist bullshit that undermines our system, and I am glad people saw through it.
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bumblie
Jul 1, 2004, 4:01 PM
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In reply to: Either he's exceptionally mature or truly a master of the troll. Regardless, I'm in awe.
In reply to: :shock: COMMON SENSE?!?!?!?! Your country is f*cked!!!! You're no better than Talibans when you do crazy sh!t like this........ I'm SO happy I wasn't born 100 miles to the south.
More and more, it looks like I was wrong on both counts.
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:04 PM
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:arrow: In reply to: i don't have a problem with god, it's his fan club i can't stand.
example: this comment has nothing to do with this thread. another liberal agenda taking form....
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Either he's exceptionally mature or truly a master of the troll. Regardless, I'm in awe. In reply to: :shock: COMMON SENSE?!?!?!?! Your country is f*cked!!!! You're no better than Talibans when you do crazy sh!t like this........ I'm SO happy I wasn't born 100 miles to the south. More and more, it looks like I was wrong on both counts.
Master of the Lilliputians maybe...
Please remain 100 miles to the north of our border...please seek counseling because you have {read sig} disorder...don't come down here for healthcare or we might behead you
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cthcrockclimber
Jul 1, 2004, 4:12 PM
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Michael Savage? Are you kidding me?
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madriver
Jul 1, 2004, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: The United States was also originally based on slavery, genocide of the Native American populations, and women as unequal second class citizens.
...I guess the beauty of the Declaration and Constitution is that is allows for change as we evolve..
In reply to: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
...I don't think the founding fathers based anything involving slavery, genocide, or discrimination with regards to the Declaration of Independece or the Constitution..
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atg200
Jul 1, 2004, 4:24 PM
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Certainly the founding fathers didn't mention the bad things in the Constitution, but it is awfully hard for me to canonize men who write "All Men Are Created Equal" yet keep slaves and slaughter natives for land. They had some good ideas and wrote some impressive documents, but they were not saints or infallible - and to treat them as such is horribly naive, yet pretty much universal in this country. This is why I give absolutely no credence to arguments that say something is ok because this country was based upon a certain principle.
I agree that the good thing about these documents and our government in general is the ability to change. I don't think America is bad or evil - I just think that a lot of what happens in our courts, laws, and government is outdated and unfair.
And for the idiot spraying about liberal agendas - many of the people who dislike the influence of religion in government are libertarians. I realize this word sounds sort of like liberal so it may be confusing to people who merely regurgitate a party line, but if you read up on libertarianism it is as far from liberalism as is really possible.
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: Michael Savage? Are you kidding me?
oh he's soo meannnnnn :lol:
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bluto
Jul 1, 2004, 4:34 PM
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Atg,
You are judging the founding fathers based on 21st century morality and ethics, while in fact they were practicing something (slavery) that was unfortunately legal and socially acceptable at the time.
It's quite possible that 200 years from now people may look back at a practice such as abortion, with the same type of disgust we view slavery with now, when in fact it is currently legal, and largely socially acceptable.
The point is, trying to judge the actions of men 200 years ago based on todays moral concepts is foolish.
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madriver
Jul 1, 2004, 4:38 PM
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bluto wrote:
In reply to: You are judging the founding fathers based on 21st century morality and ethics, while in fact they were practicing something (slavery) that was unfortunately legal and socially acceptable at the time. It's quite possible that 200 years from now people may look back at a practice such as abortion, with the same type of disgust we view slavery with now, when in fact it is currently legal, and largely socially acceptable. The point is, trying to judge the actions of men 200 years ago based on todays moral concepts is foolish.
..well said...the beauty in our founding fathers was the ability to forsee change and allow for it. But...the one common thread that I see in this is the underlying basis of judeo/christian beliefs [sp].
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cthcrockclimber
Jul 1, 2004, 4:41 PM
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no just really stupid when it comes to achieving peace.
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: That liberal judges in an attempt to create an environment of "equality for all" and "sensitivity to everyone's need", purposefully twisting laws and proceedings, instead of interpretting following an already fair and balanced system. Make no mistake, they cloak their agendas with some socialist s--- that undermines our system, and I am glad people saw through it. Liberal agenda? Puh-leeze... Do you not realize how cliche that sounds? There's no "agenda" here. It's just a beaurocrat overstepping his authority. That's it. Period. It's fundamentally no different then the Roy-Moore-10-Commandments episode. Was that indicative of a conservative agenda? In both cases a higher court stepped in and made it right. Both issues were resolved satisfactorily by the rule of law, as far as I'm concerned.
a very liberal beaurocrat *ugh shock* Tell me something, a higher court full of agenda driven liberals with no moral foothold of any kind except to twist the Constitution in their favor.
One of many many examples:
http://www.npr.org/...ure.php?wfId=3025226
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atg200
Jul 1, 2004, 4:48 PM
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bluto - i agree with you completely. that is why i don't think that our country being founded by christian beliefs is relevant in today's society. just as our ideas of equality have widened to include all people regardless of sex or race, so should our ideas of religion widen to include the beliefs of all of those diverse people.
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bumblie
Jul 1, 2004, 4:48 PM
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J,
The reason this is such a hot button issue is that there is an ongoing effort to eradicate anything resembling religion or Christianity from all levels of government. This includes forcing local governments to remove 50 year old features from court houses. I heard a story about a valedictorian who was told he couldn't mention his faith during his graduation speech.
Do you think this is how our founding fathers intended to apply the First Amendment?
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flashpumped
Jul 1, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to: no just really stupid when it comes to achieving peace.
you are really something flowerchild...ok marxist, whats your new world order spin...
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cthcrockclimber
Jul 1, 2004, 4:51 PM
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I can see why you like him so much. :wink:
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galf
Jul 1, 2004, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: The underlining basis for this can be attributed to the Bible and Jesus Christ who is fair and just to all. [BlahBlahBlAh] This is the issue. It would be pretty stupid to say, "In Judge [man] We Trust" now wouldn't it.
Myhttp://www.piercn-amethyst.com/emot/twocents.gif:
Jesus Christ who is fair and just to all...WOW you actually got to meet him? good for you. I bet you've seen him walk on water like I did. What a show off, that Jesus H Christ!
It would be pretty stupid to say, "In Judge [man] We Trust"...I would be the greatest thing to say: In mankind we trust. Since humans are the ones solely in charge of their destiny, or perhaps you've met god and he told you otherwise.
You say it's written in the bible?!? So it's true, right? It's god's words!!!!! Maybe that's why there are mistakes and innacuracies in the bible...
To Bumblie and others, yes, your nation is more and more extremist.
It's up to you not to become Talibans! What makes great modern nations is the separation of the state and church. If you don't make it obvious, like your president, you look like crusaders to the ones you're "saving" from Saddam and Talibans. You are, by your actions as a country, creating a huge new generation of terrorists. The moral is that no person should impose his beliefs on others...(I am barely suggest thing, so don't accuse me of that!)
So...
Support the right to gay marriages, you won't turn in pillars of salt.
Support the right to abortion, it's the woman choice anyways. Especially in case of rape.
Support muslims in your area, it's the only way they'll loosen up
Support the UN, unless you want to look like loose cannons to the world
Support whatever you want basically...
Live and let Live
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atg200
Jul 1, 2004, 4:56 PM
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here is a perfect example of the point i was trying to make regarding the error of assuming infallibility in the founding fathers:
In reply to: The reason this is such a hot button issue is that there is an ongoing effort to eradicate anything resembling religion or Christianity from all levels of government. ... Do you think this is how our founding fathers intended to apply the First Amendment?
ok, so...
In reply to: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights
do you think the founding fathers intended to apply this statement to their own slaves?
might their intentions, though well meaning, sometimes have been wrong?
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djmeat
Jul 1, 2004, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I was under the impression(though by no means have I spent much time studying this) that both our modern government and laws were based on the roman empires, and before that the Code of Hammurabi, and The twelve tables. Although the Justinian codes have applied quite a bit. I guess there are writings by the founding fathers (Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton et al) confirming your assertions. *rubs eyes* *checks again* *rubs eyes* *checks again* Holy s---, bumblie just said I'm right Actually no. Here. I'll simplify it for you. Are there writings by the founding fathers (Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton et al) confirming your assertions?
Not sure. I havn't looked into this since high school. Thats a decade ago. Some one else can look it up.
Thanks for "simplifying" things. Amazing what propoer punctuation can do for the meaning of a sentence. "." "?" even I get those right 99% of the time.
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madriver
Jul 1, 2004, 5:19 PM
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j_ung wrote:
In reply to: Again, I'd just like to point out that concepts of love, morality and altruism far predate both Christianity and Judaism. These values that we call "Judeo-Christian" have developed consistently -- and separately from any sort of monotheism -- throughout the history and cultures of the world
..o.k...but is our Nation founded with these "re-fined" Judeo-Christian beliefs?
jt wrote:
In reply to: Quote: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights do you think the founding fathers intended to apply this statement to their own slaves? might their intentions, though well meaning, sometimes have been wrong
...how are they wrong? While slavery existed at the time, the intent is timeless.
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