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mr.poo
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Jul 9, 2004, 12:37 PM
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i am doing some marketing research for future development in the climbing hold industry. i posted earlier about this but the subject heading was misleading. so if you have anything to say at all please do, any amount is greatly appreciated. so.....
here are some important questions to consider about money spent on holds:
DOES PRICE MATTER? what i mean is, does a hold companies price per unit effect what you buy, or do you just buy what you see and want?
if a hold manufacturer sold holds at prices that were around a third less than what is out there today, would you be more inclined to buy professionaly made holds or would you much rather make them yourself?
let me give you an example.....
an average size hold ( medium size by most companies) coast around 7 to 9 dollars. like a metolius five pack cost $35, $7 per hold. if that price were reduced to about $5 or $6 a hold making a 5 pack about $25 or $30, could you see yourself buying more holds?
or... what if the hold itself was dramatically improved by making it really UNBREAKABLE, not "almost unbreakable", 100% spin proof all the time, no matter what, and still having great texture, great shapes, and interesting colors..... would you like getting that for $7 instead of the holds out there now.
basically... would you buy more holds if the holds were the same but cost less. or....... buy holds for the same prices you have always paid but get a much much better product.
it is either do you want to keep with the same old hold or do you want to get a more advanced product for the same price?
let me know guys because i am in a real position to get this industry moving the way you want it to. i am going to see if i can get more holds out to you guys from pros that make them instead of you having to make them yourself (just to save a buck or a few cents less).
but lets face it everybody likes making some of their own holds, i am just trying to find a way we can add to our walls without subtracting so much from our pockets.
thanx
--------edit addition 7-8-04 11:15-
this is an update in light of recent comments.
i am in a position to get people what they want. am am not at liberty to say right now now but trust me it can happen. i do know two things right now that i can tell you:
1. climbing holds can be made undreakable. not a chip or fracture under enormous amounts of compression. many hold makers add fillers to their plastics, thus turning them into a more brittle material. fiberglass can be added to strengthen a hold but it also kills flexural strength thus even when tightened a bit too much "crack". a hold can be made to withstand many tons of pressure and still have flex, as not to break. but it has been hard to do this in a cost effective way. (lets just say there is now a way to do it cost effective but the hold price would still be about the same as holds around today, maybe a bit cheaper) that is unless people would much rather pay few bucks less but get breaking holds.
2. there is a way to keep a hold from spinning even without an anchor screw.... unless you bolt it to your wall that is constructed out of vaseline .
i know some companies back their holds with stuff to keep them from spinning but they still spin. i have got some So Ill holds that still spin and last week i was at a gym and we had two VooDoo holds spin us.
trust me there is a way.
so you decide. better holds for the same price? Same holds for a lower price?
you guys have a chance to help improve the climbing hold as we know it and possibly take it into a new era. sounds cheesy but i am not kidding.
thanx again guys.
---------edit addition 7-8-04 4:30-
in responce to what a few people have said....i just wanted to say that there isn't a single unbreakable hold out today. what i am talking about is a hold that can be tightened to the point of ripping the t-nut out of the wall before it breaks. that is a true "unbreakable" hold. egrips, crater, voodoo, and so ill all make urethane holds but they can still break. now some like so ill use a pure mix (no fillers) and that does make the hold pretty much unbreakable. but they also cost a more. i am speaking of an even stronger hold that cost less. :D
and yes holds are getting real boaring today. people need shapes that they get excited about. and i have a hard time finding those myself. there are a few companies out there today making interesting stuff but they are few.
-thanx again
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j_ung
Jul 9, 2004, 12:52 PM
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In reply to: what if the hold itself was dramatically improved by making it really UNBREAKABLE, not "almost unbreakable", 100% spin proof all the time, no matter what, and still having great texture, great shapes, and interesting colors..... would you like getting that for $7 instead of the holds out there now.
Sorry, but I'm skeptical. This isn't the first time I've heard this from a hold manufacturer (or potential hold manufacturer). How can you make the claims above without accounting for the myriad different wall textures out there?
In reply to: basically... would you buy more holds if the holds were the same but cost less. or....... buy holds for the same prices you have always paid but get a much much better product.
Yes and yes, especially the latter.
I have enormous bins filled with useless holds that have lost texture or are slightly cracked or are warped beyond reason. The wall that I set on is coarsely textured with many irregularities. So far, Voodoo holds work best and spin least, but they warp easily. If you give me imaginative, Voodoo-esque shapes that don't spin, warp or break -- at the same prices my gym currently pays -- I can promise you long-term quantity business.
But as I said, I've heard it all before and I'm skeptical.
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chizelz
Jul 9, 2004, 1:03 PM
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In reply to: DOES PRICE MATTER? what i mean is, does a hold companies price per unit effect what you buy, or do you just buy what you see and want?
In reply to: would you be more inclined to buy professionaly made holds or would you much rather make them yourself?
In reply to: an average size hold ( medium size by most companies) coast around 7 to 9 dollars. like a metolius five pack cost $35, $7 per hold. if that price were reduced to about $5 or $6 a hold making a 5 pack about $25 or $30, could you see yourself buying more holds?
In reply to: or... what if the hold itself was dramatically improved by making it really UNBREAKABLE, not "almost unbreakable", 100% spin proof all the time, no matter what, and still having great texture, great shapes, and interesting colors..... would you like getting that for $7 instead of the holds out there now.
In reply to: basically... would you buy more holds if the holds were the same but cost less. or....... buy holds for the same prices you have always paid but get a much much better product.
In reply to: let me know guys because i am in a real position to get this industry moving the way you want it to. |
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ajkclay
Jul 9, 2004, 1:05 PM
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The thing I'd rather be spending my money on is climbing gear and trips away climbing, therefore the less I have to spend on holds the better.
Definitely cheaper.
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aarong
Jul 9, 2004, 1:14 PM
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There are already a lot of great hold companies out there making great shapes. They've been around for a long time and have optimized the price/hold system based on design time, materials, and marketing, etc.
There are also a few hold companies who have managed to get their prices down on their holds but the designs are not that great - pretty basic.
At first, price used to matter to me a LOT. But over time - I've found that you really get what you pay for. Sure, So Ill holds are expensive - but they are the most creative holds out there and I don't mind paying for them. Voodoo holds are not cheap - but they make some great shapes - I'll buy them.
I think Metolius has stood the test of time too - I've got holds from them that have lasted almost 15 years - I don't mind paying $8/hold for that!
I would say - don't try to get cheap - just get creative.
Also - to hold companies - enough with the screw-ons! They are great as a supplement - but damn hard to change in and out - especially when you have 6 or 7 screws/hold!
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mr.poo
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Jul 9, 2004, 2:27 PM
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dont assume i am a starting a hold business :wink:
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atomic
Jul 9, 2004, 3:12 PM
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If price point is what you guys are after. Please check out my website http://www.atomicholds.com. . My holds average $2 and less. They are made with high quality poly-urethane, steel insterts, and great texture. I also pride myself on customer service. If you have any questions please feel free to email me at scott@atomicholds.com.
Thanks
Scott
ps I also have great deals on T-nuts.
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fredrogers
Jul 9, 2004, 3:31 PM
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The holds shouldn't break. Who cares if they were $2 each? If they break, they're worthless. But the unbreakable solution has been found -- it's called urethane. Manufacturers such as E-grips and Craterholds already use it.
Cheaper holds is always good. Woodies need a ton of holds and not many climbers can afford $8 per hold plus shipping. I assume the same is true for gyms. I once heard from a hold manufacturer that they make a ton of money off of schools that put up walls. They buy a ton of holds and don't care too much about the shapes. Doesn't exactly encourage creative innovation.
The hold market is pretty saturated. I find it hard to believe you'll be able to differentiate yourself and revolutionize anything. Good luck with your enterprise.
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climbingrlmqt
Jul 9, 2004, 3:46 PM
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I am the manager for a university gym and we buy new holds twice a year for each of our competitons. The past year or two we have found ourselves getting stuck because we seem to have a lot of the same type of holds and it is getting kind of boring. We generally stick with the same few companies due to price (and loyalty to companies that are good to us). We often have problems with holds spinning because of our textured walls and lately many footchips have been breaking. If a company could garuntee that a hold wouldn't break or spin, that would be great and I definately would pay the same amount; otherwise, just lowering the price would be great. Who wouldn't want a lower price for holds?
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aarong
Jul 9, 2004, 3:50 PM
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A friend of mine had a great hold company called Gritstone a few years ago. His holds were nearly unbreakably - incredibly strong - and the shapes were cutting-edge at the time. Plus - they were reasonably priced.
Anyway - he sold all of his designs and molds to Crater. Crater then sold to Cheap Holds. So now you can find them at Cheap Holds (under the same Crater line - bolt-on holds).
Making a hold unchipable and unbreakable is based on the extent of its use and application. A true test of this is bolting a hold to a concrete silo wall and tightening the shit out of it. I've been through bucket-loads of holds cracking one after another putting up routes in a silo gym. If your holds can withstand that - awesome - there few that can (metolius, nicros, pusher, gritstone) but many that can't (franklin, climb it, gripheads). Most people don't bolt to concrete so it's not that big of a deal. Problem is just because they are strong does not make them creative - especially with the old nicros holds - I never broke a single one but I hated them because they were so boring.
Low price? great! But what will they look like? Will they be new? inventive? creative? unique? or just another climbing hold? I like to buy the newest, craziest, most creative holds. Be THAT hold company. Whether a new hold line will truly be better or not remains to be seen.
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cin
Jul 9, 2004, 3:53 PM
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Climbing walls are for training. I don't want to spend a lot of money on them.
Trips, and gear on the other hand, I'll sell my first born child; remortgage the house, and kill for the profit so that I can get the best.
I can just as easily train in my health club without walls at all.
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fredrogers
Jul 9, 2004, 3:58 PM
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That Atomic line has some promising ideas going for it. Looks like they have some nice basic shapes but not many to choose from. But they offer really cheap holds, cheap shipping, and I really like that they give you the option of buying the holds with bolts or no bolts (which saves you a little cash). Many people or gyms have tons of bolts and don't need any more.
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mr.poo
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Jul 9, 2004, 8:48 PM
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keep the input coming, this is helping a lot
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dlintz
Jul 9, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: There are already a lot of great hold companies out there making great shapes. They've been around for a long time and have optimized the price/hold system based on design time, materials, and marketing, etc.
The owners of the "bouldering gym" I go to are not particularily interested in attracting more climbers rather more birthday parties. They don't have any problem with me buying my own holds and letting them "borrow" the holds for a reduced membership fee. Bottomline is I'm looking at price a little more than creative designs. HRT-Holds is a European company with a massive selection of interesting but not awe inspiring holds. Their prices are reasonable but it's a little deceiving since there's 2 kinds of currency involved. I'd buy a bunch of these if the shipping wouldn't kill me.
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aarong
Jul 9, 2004, 9:53 PM
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No doubt that for $50 you can get something much bigger than "basketball" sized. For example: the huge wrinkle at voodoo is $55 but it's about 3 feet long, 15" wide, and sticks out about 8".
But most standard sized holds range from $7-10/hold, and within these I would rather pay a little more for a great shaped hold than a half-thought-out blob of plastic. I agree, it won't make much difference to the non-climbing masses (in that case I say go for the less-expensive less creative holds) but if we are talking about anyone who is interested in climbing and who you want to KEEP interested (i.e. new gym members) - you better have some cool new holds for them to enjoy. Otherwise, indoor climbing gets real old real fast.
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mr.poo
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Jul 9, 2004, 11:37 PM
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holds that size can be made for less. a basketball sized hold could be sold for about $30 while still being unbreakable, no-spinning, and a few other goodies (can't mention what they are). a hold the same size as the VooDoo wrinkle could be made for about $40.
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coldclimb
Jul 10, 2004, 12:29 AM
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For me personally, money is all that matters. I make my holds with a machette and scrap wood lying around, and I use leftover screws from the bottoms of those little paper bags that always wind up thrown way back on a shelf in the garage somewhere after someone's done using them. They aren't great, but I hardly ever have the willpower to make myself work out anyway. ;) They hold just fine, with the exception of my very first attempt of my traverse, in the pitch black december evening, when I found that I had cracked one while screwing it in. The hold folded, but most of it is still on the wall, and the exposed screws now only add extra texture. :D
But I've noticed that I'm slightly outside the lines of normalcy. :lol: Most people like serious home walls, not my little halfhearted efforts to climb during the winter....
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dlintz
Jul 10, 2004, 1:05 AM
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In reply to: a hold the same size as the VooDoo wrinkle could be made for about $40.
Maybe this is just me but I find screw on holds larger than foot jibs to be worthless. T-nuts can go just about anywhere a screw could so why not use them instead? That way you can at least rotate the hold. Just my 2 cents.
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mr.poo
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Jul 10, 2004, 2:38 AM
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that is two people that dont like the abundance of screw on climbing holds or hand jibs.
do you think to many companies are focusing on these screw on holds more than they should?
or do most of you like the screw on holds? (not foot chips, because screw on foot chips are a must)
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rispo
Jul 10, 2004, 2:57 AM
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no contest......i want drastically cheaper holds...holds are durable enough, I want more of them.
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