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cin
Aug 26, 2004, 2:00 AM
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Does anyone know what the death toll is for climbing?
Exactly how many people die each year? and where?
Is there a place on the internet that keeps track of this?
Just wondering thanks!
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slavetogravity
Aug 26, 2004, 2:22 AM
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The American Alpine Club puts out an annual report called ACCIDENTS IN NORTH AMERICAN MOUNTAINEERING. Its available at places like MEC in Canada and ,I assume, REI in the US. In this report you'll find all the dirt on every climbing accident that happened that year, that was reported to the authorities. Don't know if you'll find a running tally out there but it's a good start.
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tradman
Aug 26, 2004, 10:51 AM
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There are about 50 deaths a year here in Scotland, and a lot more folks than that get choppered off hills and cliffs by Mountain Rescue.
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robmcc
Aug 26, 2004, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: In this report you'll find all the dirt on every climbing accident that happened that year, that was reported to the authorities.
I don't have a copy on hand to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that's not true.
Rob
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ben87
Aug 26, 2004, 2:43 PM
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rob, what do you mean?
that is exactly true. Accidents in North American Mountaineering is a compilation of all major accidents and incidents that were reported to the authorities in the US and Canada -- usually with a description or analysis.
I happened to thumb through a copy last night
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killclimbz
Aug 26, 2004, 2:49 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In this report you'll find all the dirt on every climbing accident that happened that year, that was reported to the authorities. I don't have a copy on hand to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. Rob
It's probably pretty close to true for the US and Canada. At least with the deaths and serious accidents. Of course they can only report on what was reported to them, so there is going to be some missing info.
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robmcc
Aug 26, 2004, 3:00 PM
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In reply to: rob, what do you mean? that is exactly true. Accidents in North American Mountaineering is a compilation of all major accidents and incidents that were reported to the authorities in the US and Canada -- usually with a description or analysis. I happened to thumb through a copy last night
I mean what I said. I don't think it's true. You added "major", which radically changes the meaning on the statement. I stand by the fact that ANAM doesn't include all accidents reported to "the authorities" in the US and Canada.
I said this because I recall looking for an accident report for an accident that I know happened, and not finding it.
And here you go:
"Accidents in North American Mountaineering depends upon submissions from injured climbers, their partners, search and rescue organizations, park officials, and news reports. You can report accident information for the next edition by downloading the accident report form and returning it to Jed Williamson, the book's editor."
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/...publications-acc.asp
They report what's reported to them. It is not comprehensive. Not what's reported to the authorities, what's reported to the American Alpine Club.
To be sure, a great and valuable resource that I shell out money for every year, but let's not confuse what it really is.
Rob
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chugach001
Aug 26, 2004, 3:39 PM
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Hey,
I posted a bunch of stats several months ago in the "Accidents" section of this site. There's a pretty good conversation that follows.
Enjoy,
Jeff
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boltdude
Aug 26, 2004, 4:16 PM
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ben87, ANAM requires someone to write things up and send them in. There was a climbing fatality at Red Rocks, NV a couple years ago that did not appear as a writeup in ANAM, and - more importantly from those looking at the ANAM statistics - did not appear in the statistics for that year. It was a belayer miscommunication/dropped from top of cliff accident, from what I heard (we were stuck in a backup for 1+ hr as the helicopter flew in and landed on the highway).
Greg
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forbin
Aug 26, 2004, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: There are about 50 deaths a year here in Scotland
This seem outrageously high, especially for a small country. Tradman, what the hell's going on over there! :shock: Has everyone taken to free soloing choss?
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johnhemlock
Aug 26, 2004, 4:30 PM
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I have personally witnessed the aftermath of two ground fall type accidents that required helicopter extraction, SAR, etc. They never showed up in ANAM. I'm guessing this is the result of overworked SAR types that don't get around to submitting the story to ANAM, so I agree, it is a useful but by no means complete resource.
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fredrogers
Aug 26, 2004, 5:52 PM
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As stated above, ANAM simply attempts to report accidents that are submitted to them with the intention that they will analyze the accident. Then, others may read about it and learn from others mishaps. I know of a few accidents involving my friends and noone ever thought to write in anything for ANAM. The report is a good sampling of things that go wrong while climbing but not a summary of every single accident occurring that year
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beesty511
Aug 26, 2004, 6:51 PM
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In reply to: They report what's reported to them. It is not comprehensive. Not what's reported to the authorities, what's reported to the American Alpine Club.
And, that's not even true. Someone I climb with reported an accident he was in directly to the address listed in Accidents in North American Mountaineering, and they sent him a few emails asking for more details, but they never published the accident.
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cin
Aug 27, 2004, 12:52 PM
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so I guess the answer to my question is;
no, nobody is keeping track of the fatalities
from climbing. ANAM tries, but doesn't
really do a good job. Also, ANAM is just
Canada and the US, not even all of North
America. This seems surprising to me.
For a sport that is so inherently dangerous,
you would think that this would be an
important thing to keep an eye on.
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overlord
Aug 27, 2004, 1:32 PM
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thats because there are a lot of things different people understand under climbing.
if you stick to the "pure" meaning, it means activities that involve climbing trees, rock, ice and snow (and building offcourse).
but some of the more dangerous destinations fall from this category, like the himalayas (not all of it offcourse), the arctic etc.
most climbing and mountaneering accidents occur due to poor planning and preparation and weather changes.
and since oyu wanted climbing fatalities, do you caount someone summiting denali a climber??? or someone summiting everest?? how about that boulderer in your gym??? or the kin in a tree??? you see???
to help you, we had one CLIMBING fatality in slovenia this year (someone fell while moving through easyer terrain on a trad route unroped), but i dont know how many mountaneering ones. the latter are usually poorly prepared tourists who either slip, get hit by a rock or are caught by a sudden weather change. we have about 10 of these each year.
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olderic
Aug 27, 2004, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: This seems surprising to me. For a sport that is so inherently dangerous, you would think that this would be an important thing to keep an eye on.
This casual comment actually distils a lot of the issue. Most climbers would prefer that no one is "keeing an eye" on them.
What gets sent into ANAM gets filtered at several levels - it is supposed to be representative - not comprehensive.
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cin
Aug 28, 2004, 12:04 PM
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I don't mean that we need a "watchdog" group keeping an eye on us. What I would like to see is a way to gauge the actual danger involved in certain climbing activities.
__ many people died in 2000 trad climbing
__ many people died sport climbing in Verdon
__ many people died in yosemite climbing
__ many people died bouldering in the gunks
etc...
Mostly so people know what they are getting into.
I know that there are stupid people out there. I know that dumb tourists make silly fatal errors in judgement. I would take this into account when reading these stats.
Condoms have a 10% failure rate; stupid people making silly fatal errors. It doesn't mean that I am not gonna use them!!
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dingus
Aug 28, 2004, 12:24 PM
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In the several times I've been hurt climbing I have never once submitted a report to ANAM. Nor have I reported injuries to the park service when hurt in YNP.
I am hardly an exception.
Cheers
DMT
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reno
Aug 28, 2004, 1:32 PM
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In reply to: In the several times I've been hurt climbing I have never once submitted a report to ANAM. Nor have I reported injuries to the park service when hurt in YNP.
Ditto, and I would think that the "educational aspect" of the reported accident would come into play (I could be wrong on this.)
I mean to say if an outdoorsman/outdoorswoman is hurt/injured because of some freak, once-in-ten-million chance of being hit in the eye with marmot dung, which causes her to slip the haul rope, and that reduces the tension on her haul bag, and thus dropping her Nalgene, which plummets 500 feet, strikes the roof of a RV, and that loud BANG gives the guy in the RV a heart attack... What is there to learn from that (Other than "Don't get hit by marmot dung")??
So as a journalist, I would hesitate to publish something that was simply a waste of ink... minor injuries, silly mistakes, etc., fall in that category.
Again, I do not know if this is the case at ANAM, but it's possible.
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