|
cracklover
Aug 30, 2004, 2:11 PM
Post #1 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
I think the long-term goal of the beginners forum as per defined by Curt, Jay, and Tim is to have a set core group of experts.
Here's an idea: Have a sort of audition. Anyone who feels they're qualified to answer beginners' questions must submit an answer for the FAQ. For now, at least, Alpineclimbr1 has agreed to sort through stuff. That would get lots of good text for his FAQ. And it would give whoever makes the call on "appropriate" beginners Gurus plenty of applicants to choose from - and some writing to help tell who's willing and able to keep a topic clear, concise, and interesting. Tim, Curt, JT, Phil Box, what do you think? I think it's a win-win solution.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
chronicle
Aug 30, 2004, 2:41 PM
Post #2 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 664
|
So then would you only allow these hand picked people to reply to posts in the Beginners Forum?
If anyone can post a reply, then I think you end up at the exact same point you are now.
I had an idea at one point, but never stated it. It would be a "Ask the Expert" forum. Where there are hand picked "experts" that answer questions. The forum would be set up so that you could post a new question, and reply to your own thread. The only people that can reply to all the threads are the "experts".
Is that what the Beginners Forum is going to become?
|
|
|
|
|
itakealot
Aug 30, 2004, 2:46 PM
Post #3 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2003
Posts: 382
|
what about placing the newb forum on a completely different URL, and charge for it, then taked the money and give it to the Access Fund?
|
|
|
|
|
pedro_burrito
Aug 30, 2004, 2:55 PM
Post #4 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 142
|
You don't need an FAQ, you don't need a group of experts, you need to have a stock reply to any question in the beginners forum: read Freedom of the Hills. Anything written in response to a question in the Beginners Forum is either redundant to what is in Freedom of the Hills or it's wrong. If it's redundant then it's reinventing the wheel. If it's wrong then it's dangerous.
So, if someone wrote: "What's the best knot to tie two ropes together? "
The answer would be: read Freedom of the Hills.
That way there's no discussion of EDK's, figure 8's, double fishermans, how lame the American Mountain Guides Association is, how worthless the anchor is, etc.
Maybe RC.com can get a deal to put excerpts of Freedom of the Hills online and hot link to it.
|
|
|
|
|
fredrogers
Aug 30, 2004, 3:10 PM
Post #5 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 288
|
FOTH is a mountaineering text. It is not the end-all-be-all of rock techniques. Yes, it's a good starting point but it's written from the point of view of Cascade mountain climbers.
That said, you're right that it could answer 85% of noob questions.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 30, 2004, 3:14 PM
Post #6 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: what about placing the newb forum on a completely different URL, and charge for it, then taked the money and give it to the Access Fund?
Would you pay money to be insulted by jt512?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
chronicle
Aug 30, 2004, 3:16 PM
Post #7 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 664
|
While FOTH is a great text, it doesn't answer every question. Some questions may come from someone that read all of the books available, and still can't find an answer to their scenario.
If you are looking for a forum to answer questions from gumbies, then (IMHO) the "Ask the Expert" idea would provide some solid information, without the chatter/flaming/off-subject talk that becomes of a lot of threads.
If you are looking for text for the FAQ, then I think FOTH can provide a lot of that.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 30, 2004, 3:16 PM
Post #8 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Man, ya gotta move fast around here!
In reply to: Here's an idea: Have a sort of audition for beginner's guru. Anyone who feels they're qualified to answer beginners' questions must submit an answer for the FAQ.
Cracklover, I love you like a brother man, I do. But I am about to skewer your idea anyway, sorry Bro.
An audition. To be qualified to post an answer to a beginner question to an internet forum about climbing. Answers that have all been asked and answered before, ad infinitum.
No offense, but you folks have gone round the bend with this beginners thing.
An audition. For a forum. Will you issue merit badges and anger management certificates too?
You good people are taking this beginners thing, and yourselves, WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. Chill out and you'll see, beginners aren't dying as a result of the reams of misinformation promulgated by rc.com. With a modest down side the up side will be of similar amplitude. The world's noobs are not going to be beating down your doors to submit ever new and interesting questions. So you're just working at making yourselves feel better about what is inherently 'internet blather.'
A great sound and fury for what will be a sandbox for 4 - 5 control-oriented people. And you've already seen a taste of their management styles, The Emperor's Decree. Very conducive for noobie posts, ayup.
Didn't use the right word? Try AGAIN!
Repetitive question? Search the freaking FAQ!
Modeator had a bad day? Your question is REJECTED!!!111
Becomes a Supreme Court and just getting your question heard will require a professional advocate wearing a white wig no doubt, to assist the clueless noob in formatting the question to suit the judges pecularities (beesty of course leaps to mind). Just figgering out 'who is moderating today' will be vitally important in getting one's questions before the panel.
Best to wait a day if jt512 is logged on.
Auditions... WAY TOO SERIOUSLY FOLKS!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Aug 30, 2004, 6:49 PM
Post #9 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: what about placing the newb forum on a completely different URL, and charge for it, then taked the money and give it to the Access Fund? Would you pay money to be insulted by jt512? DMT
If he did, I'd be rich.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Aug 30, 2004, 6:54 PM
Post #10 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
... nah .. bad idea ..
there are lots of people here who are qualified to answer questions ..
let anyone answer questiosn.. usually when someone gives a bad anaswer it gets pointed out quickly ...
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 30, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #11 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: If he did, I'd be rich. -Jay
Lol! Touche'. I have always admired your ability to laugh at yourself. My respect for you as a climber and as an internet dweeb remains intact.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Aug 30, 2004, 7:50 PM
Post #12 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: Man, ya gotta move fast around here! In reply to: Here's an idea: Have a sort of audition for beginner's guru. Anyone who feels they're qualified to answer beginners' questions must submit an answer for the FAQ. Cracklover, I love you like a brother man, I do. But I am about to skewer your idea anyway, sorry Bro.
No sweat - I threw it out there for comments. Just don't expect me to agree with all your skewering! :lol:
In reply to: An audition. To be qualified to post an answer to a beginner question to an internet forum about climbing. Answers that have all been asked and answered before, ad infinitum. No offense, but you folks have gone round the bend with this beginners thing. An audition. For a forum. Will you issue merit badges and anger management certificates too? You good people are taking this beginners thing, and yourselves, WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. Chill out and you'll see, beginners aren't dying as a result of the reams of misinformation promulgated by rc.com.
Blah blah blah - the question is - would Jay and Curt's suggestion be better or worse than what rc.com has now? I agree with you that what's there now isn't all that broken, but I also think their idea has some merit. What it lacks is a way to determine who's an "expert". That's the piece I'm adressing (as well as the FAQ issue).
In reply to: With a modest down side the up side will be of similar amplitude.
I don't follow you there.
In reply to: The world's noobs are not going to be beating down your doors to submit ever new and interesting questions. So you're just working at making yourselves feel better about what is inherently 'internet blather.'
A good FAQ would help somewhat. My suggestion would, I think, help create that FAQ.
In reply to: A great sound and fury for what will be a sandbox for 4 - 5 control-oriented people. And you've already seen a taste of their management styles, The Emperor's Decree. Very conducive for noobie posts, ayup.
I agree that having just 4 or 5 "experts" might be restrictive. This is a way to open up the pool. If it works, you might have enough good people to have a rotating pool, with say 4 or 5 people at a time, and a potential group of a hundred or so over the course of a year. Who's on the auditioning commitee? To start, I'd say that would be everyone. You submit an article, and folks vote it up or down. Those who get plenty of positive votes are in. At least that would get the ball rolling.
In reply to: Didn't use the right word? Try AGAIN!
In reply to: Repetitive question? Search the freaking FAQ! Modeator had a bad day? Your question is REJECTED!!!111 Becomes a Supreme Court and just getting your question heard will require a professional advocate wearing a white wig no doubt, to assist the clueless noob in formatting the question to suit the judges pecularities (beesty of course leaps to mind). Just figgering out 'who is moderating today' will be vitally important in getting one's questions before the panel. Best to wait a day if jt512 is logged on. Auditions... WAY TOO SERIOUSLY FOLKS!
Perhaps there could be several people answering questions at any one time. This would allow the beginner to get several opinions.
Anyway, I'm not so much advocating their idea as I am floating a way to implement it that would also help out the FAQ. Clearly the FAQ and beginner's forum should work hand in glove. This is a way of formalizing that partnership.
Cheers,
GO
|
|
|
|
|
iridesantacruz
Aug 30, 2004, 8:04 PM
Post #13 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2002
Posts: 594
|
i say do that idea but make it a different forum..... make an "Ask the Experts" forum.
-chris
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 30, 2004, 8:11 PM
Post #14 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: In reply to: With a modest down side the up side will be of similar amplitude. I don't follow you there.
I didn't explain it very well. Here's what I meant... people are not dying as a result of the beginner's forum, ergo there is no huge downside to this "problem."
Know what the problem really is? The forum bothers a fairly small number of people, enough that they want to change it. That is the bedrock truth. There was a similar yet correspondingly smaller, community on rec.climbing a while back.
Upside? What do 'we' stand to gain? Noobs aren't dying from bad advice, then they won't be standing to gain all that much from good advice. People don't learn to climb from the internet anyway. They're not dying, but they're not flying either. Pretty much same as it ever was in terms of noobs, but with more focus on correct phraseology and theoretically at least, much less wading through superfulous threads to find an answer. They will be more focused on the protocol of the forum than the protocol of climbing!
The REAL upside is the forum will be less bothersome to that same fairly small number of people that wanted to change it in the first place.
Just what is it you're trying to fix? With a modest downside and a modest upside, a vetted experts panel is a lot of energy and time spent to solve a minimal problem.
I wish the same people, creative, intelligent climbers ALL, with solid typing skills and some command of the language, I wish those same people would work on typing some CONTENT, instead of worrying so much about what other people type.
See, I think that is the BEST way to solve THE PROBLEM. I have always thought that. The forum is ill? Take the bull by the horns. Alpnclmr1 seems to have the idea down pat. There are plenty of others, beesty included. Pretty much anyone who accurately conveys an answer already knows the best method to fix what ails this or any other forum. Personally, through direct contribution.
Designated experts will result in less contributions and less useful information getting out, not more.
Cheers Bros!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
uasunflower
Aug 30, 2004, 8:17 PM
Post #15 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 1563
|
what about adding an "expert" or "FAQ Expert" title after a user has his article accepted as a FAQ? Then keep the beginner forum open, but show "expert" or "non-expert" on replies...just a thought...
On another note, I was enjoying the beginner forum (being beginner myself), as it reminds you of basics, and even stupid questions/comments often lead to valuable discussions. Most of the time adults are able to tell reasonable from suicidal advice, and are aware not to take everything at face value - especially where their life is concerned - so I think the whole issue of non-expert answers is a bit overblown, and everyone should be aloud to post in one way or another...
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Aug 30, 2004, 9:02 PM
Post #16 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: what about adding an "expert" or "FAQ Expert" title after a user has his article accepted as a FAQ? Then keep the beginner forum open, but show "expert" or "non-expert" on replies...just a thought... On another note, I was enjoying the beginner forum (being beginner myself), as it reminds you of basics, and even stupid questions/comments often lead to valuable discussions. Most of the time adults are able to tell reasonable from suicidal advice, and are aware not to take everything at face value - especially where their life is concerned - so I think the whole issue of non-expert answers is a bit overblown, and everyone should be aloud to post in one way or another...
Perfect suggestion. Much less cumbersome than my solution. And I agree with with Dingus's (and UASunflower's) observations: the system is not very broken, so the smaller the fix the better. I like UAsunflower's suggestion very well - gets the writing on the FAQ done, continues to allow the wide range of posts for the beginner to read from, while helping the beginner distinguish the users who are more likely to be posting correct info.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Aug 30, 2004, 9:07 PM
Post #17 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Actually, I came up with an idea that is in the works:
My thought is to do away with the beginner's forum as it is and have more of an "ask the experts" thing where moderators will be able to view queued questions, answer them, and release them to the wolves. The idea being that the answers start out being correct so they can't go south too quickly.
This sounds like the fifth circle of hell to me, since I approve photos and sometimes there's just so many I want to die, but there are plenty of people on this site who wouldn't mind helping out and doing this, it may just work. It doesn't censor anyone, it just gives beginners a decent answer to start out with.
|
|
|
|
|
chronicle
Aug 30, 2004, 9:31 PM
Post #18 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 664
|
I like maculated's response. It is close to what I mentioned previously. Basically that is the goal, is to get some good information out from the start. What direction it takes after that is up to the user, however in approaching it with this method, you have a clear question/answer combo to start the thread, making it easier to find the information. This of course would also help in the FAQ creation.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Aug 30, 2004, 10:02 PM
Post #19 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
I think you guys are just setting yourself up for a lot of headaches. But if you have the time, here's another suggestion.
Have one forum that is completely moderated. Topic posts and all replies have to be viewed and approved by a moderator before they post. Any "rejected" responses automatically get sent to another thread. So all replies are visible but there is one thread that stays on topic with good respones.
Downsides: responses are going to be slowed because they will have to be reviewed. However, if the the person asking the question and/or responding don't want to wait, they can always ask/respond on a non-moderated thread.
The moderators are going to have to review a lot of responses, but it appears that they are doing that anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
philbox
Moderator
Aug 30, 2004, 10:09 PM
Post #20 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2002
Posts: 13105
|
First, in answer to the proposed queueing of questions, I asked Tim if this was easy to implement and he advises me it is a nightmare to code so it aint gunna happen.
Second, I would like to take us back to first principles and to the basic premise of why I first started to agitate for change in the beginners forum. We were becoming concerned that the beginners forum was turning into something of an internet chat room where the clueless were expounding on the worth of their clueless ideas to other clueless n00bs.
Lots of noise and barely any signal.
Dingus thumps the lectern with bible in hand.
In reply to: I wish the same people, creative, intelligent climbers ALL, with solid typing skills and some command of the language, I wish those same people would work on typing some CONTENT, instead of worrying so much about what other people type.
Preach it brother, hallelujah brother, amen. [/southern baptist voice]
The thing is that the beginners forum now has a fairly high profile and a lot less noise obscuring the signal. We DO have some high quality voices expressing opinions in that forum now. This is something that I have personally been advocating for some time now.
We may at some stage institute an ask the experts forum which will be an entirely different beast than the beginners forum. That is not a forgone conclusion so don`t hold your breath.
In short to answer dingus, yes, we have been trying to solve a problem and by and large the answer is already upon us and perhaps we have not recognised it yet. Dingus eloquently put the answer in a nutshell and that is that we simply need quality content in there.
The clueless will always be with us and I hope that the experts amongst us will be patient with those that are genuinely seeking to glean wisdom from the experts. We all started out as being clueless and we all needed to learn from others let`s remember that when we see a clueless question.
The wider problem really is the clueless answer although this is not so much a problem when the clueless answer is dissected and exposed for what it is, the logic should be plain for all to see.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Aug 30, 2004, 10:11 PM
Post #21 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Actually, I came up with an idea that is in the works: My thought is to do away with the beginner's forum as it is and have more of an "ask the experts" thing where moderators will be able to view queued questions, answer them, and release them to the wolves. The idea being that the answers start out being correct so they can't go south too quickly.
With a few notable exceptions, the moderators here are hardly the "expert" climbers. So, how would the answers start out being correct under that system?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Aug 30, 2004, 10:17 PM
Post #22 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
I would propose different beginner forum moderators, but if Tim doesn't code it, it won't come anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
beesty511
Aug 30, 2004, 10:22 PM
Post #23 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 336
|
How about banning curt and jt512 completely from the forums? I think that would elevate the quality of all the forums. They seem to hate everyone that has a question anyway.
Or, only allow people to post to forums in which they have politely given "correct advice". Every question could be assigned a category, and for instance, curt would only be allowed to respond to Community type posts or shoe threads. Because of his history, curt would not be able to respond to any question that involved climbing techniques or quantitative answers.
And, jt512 could be given his own forum called something like "Time Out"--to which he would be wholly restricted, and no one else could respond to questions displayed there. Copies of the most irritating and repetitive questions could be posted to the Time Out forum, and jt512 could rail away to his hearts content and not bother anyone else.
Or, shut down all the forums and have people email questions to alpineclimber1, jt512, and curt, and they can answer them. The rest of us can look at the pretty pictures.
Just some ideas.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Aug 30, 2004, 10:23 PM
Post #24 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: I would propose different beginner forum moderators, but if Tim doesn't code it, it won't come anyway.
Ahhhhhh. Gotcha. :wink:
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Aug 30, 2004, 10:29 PM
Post #25 of 105
(6751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
Beesty, this isn't a "stroke" specific users thing. This is simply a "how can we avoid death advice to people who don't know anything better" discussion. Chill.
And personally, whether you like Curt or Jay, they know their shit and I for one am glad that both have answered my questions along the way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
