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studiggity
Sep 13, 2004, 6:07 PM
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Thanks for the great replies everyone. I was really hoping some Gunks locals would chime in and give me some additional back-story on how the place came to be. After additional reflection, I believe my mistake was that I went to the Gunks with the wrong expectations. Ironically, the Mohonk Preserve may deserve a pat on the back for my ignorance. When I see a bunch of trees, great climbing, and a scenic view that isn't clogged by private development I assume the place is a national park.
When I pulled into the preserve, I was expecting to be driving onto public lands and was quite surprised when I discovered that the place was not part of the national park system. The Mohonk Preserve should be commended for giving off such an impression. It wasn't until I got home and read a bit online before I made the first post that I discovered that the place was a visitor supported preserve. However, by that point it was too late and my initial reaction had already tainted my view. I agree that a private landowner should be allowed to do just about anything they want with their land and it is certainly reasonable that I be expected to pay $10 for the privilege of climbing there. I think I need to visit the place again with adjusted expectations and see how my perceptions change.
That said, I do think that there is an interested conversation here about fees to access public land. In fact - lets pretend my initial post was not about the Gunks but was instead about a public space with a per person day use fee.
By the way, I paid the fee :)
Stuart
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skateman
Sep 13, 2004, 6:16 PM
Post #27 of 61
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We should pay Dingus for the entertainment he provides to rc.com!
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Sep 13, 2004, 6:25 PM
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For a comparison you only needed to drive a few miles down the road past the Mohonk Preserve to Peter's Kill which is part of Minnewaska State Park. If you park there to hike or bike they charge a parking fee per car regardless of how many occupants. If you go there to climb they charge each person for a climbing permit. It is a state park so my taxes pay for it, so this is double dipping. Why am I paying more to climb there than to hike or bike? And you can't buy an annual permit, so if you go there a lot it could really add up. Any thoughts?
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jiadar
Sep 13, 2004, 6:31 PM
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I'd rather pay $20 to climb at Yosemite than pay the same amount for a night of climbing at the local indoor gym.
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dingus
Sep 13, 2004, 6:49 PM
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In reply to: I'd rather pay $20 to climb at Yosemite than pay the same amount for a night of climbing at the local indoor gym.
As a preference, I'd rather pay nothing to climb in Yosemite and skip the gym altogether.
DMT
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dingus
Sep 13, 2004, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: Fee avoidance at the Gunks is always wrong. If you want to sneak into some Forest Service area where they are charging a "demonstration fee" or something , by all means go right ahead--and have fun. The Gunks, however, is a different situation. Curt
I hear you Curt and understand your point. Incl the Big Pictures, both there and here on rc.com.
But at some point (and I'm not defining that point) 'the man' is just 'the man' and public/private sector distinctions become meaningless.
I guess I grew up in the wrong era Curt. I can respect individual private property rights to a great extent. But in our current world? I have much less respect for the notion of corporate private property rights, MUCH LESS. Now obviously the preserve isn't a corporation, nor does it seem bent on screwing over the Gunks climber population.
But as a natural inclination and cultivated political and social stance, I reserve the right to sneak in to any damn climbing place I wish. Now if I get caught you won't hear me whining about it.
But climbing used to be about breaking or at least ignoring rules. I guess the Gunks and rc.com BOTH can be used to make the obvious conclusion that climbing has lost most of that spirit.
Sad really, but inevitable too. There are just too many of you rule followers.
DMT
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picaco
Sep 13, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: Why am I paying more to climb there than to hike or bike?
The only thing that comes to mind is the cost of a emergency rescue for climbers fare probably a lot different than for a biker or a hiker.
Ben
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tradman
Sep 14, 2004, 2:12 PM
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As a Scotsman, the idea of paying to climb outdoors strikes me as bizarre to the point of surreal.
I have never and will never pay to walk, touch or climb on rocks in a country which is mine by right of birth, and woe betide the man who tries to make me.
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dingus
Sep 14, 2004, 2:23 PM
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In reply to: As a Scotsman, the idea of paying to climb outdoors strikes me as bizarre to the point of surreal. I have never and will never pay to walk, touch or climb on rocks in a country which is mine by right of birth, and woe betide the man who tries to make me.
Damn, that brought a tear to my eye!
Cheers
DMT
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coloradosteve
Sep 14, 2004, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why am I paying more to climb there than to hike or bike? The only thing that comes to mind is the cost of a emergency rescue for climbers fare probably a lot different than for a biker or a hiker. Ben
This brings up a question - Should the people using the area pay for the emergency personnel needed in that area? Should people in Louisiana be paying for the helicopter service to rescue someone that falls and gets hurt in Yosemite? (taxes)... I'm not sure. Should everyone pay a couple of bucks or should the person(s) being rescued get the the $3k bill that it costs to put that helicopter up and the personnel to operate it?
Steve
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reno
Sep 14, 2004, 5:51 PM
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I'd much rather pay my money to keep a state park, national park, or other public place available than pay my money to a gym.
Just yesterday, we did Eldo... To me, the $6 entry fee is a small price to pay for having good climbing.
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dingus
Sep 14, 2004, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: This brings up a question - Should the people using the area pay for the emergency personnel needed in that area?
No. And if we start the good people of Colorado should belly up and fund their own military. And ambulance servies. And interstate highways. etc etc etc
Course it doesn't work that way. We taxpayers are and will be helping out the Floridians for example, with 2 back to back hurricanes. Most of them were there by choice. They willingly put themselves and rescuers at risk by going there in the first place. They should have known better and most of them did... know better. They did it anyway, simply because they wanted to.
Hmmm, sounds exactly like the arguments used to suggest that climbers should pay for their own rescues. Fine. I pay for my rescue, Florida pays for hers.
Cept it don't work that way.
DMT
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picaco
Sep 14, 2004, 6:50 PM
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I didn't mean to imply that each person is responsible for their own rescue or what not, I was just suggesting a possible reason as to why climbers were required to pay more than hikers/bikers.
But since it has been brought up, I believe that those living in the same country (US in this case) should not just worry about themselves, but indeed offer assistance to those caught in various situations whether it be a climbing accident or hurricane damage.
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wonder1978
Sep 14, 2004, 7:09 PM
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As a side note (and even though I do have an opinion on the topic at hand), I'd like to commend you, studiggity, for the overall quality of your original post. You make a real effort to take a step back, and consider all potential aspects of the issue, something rarely seen on this site. Although this is a touchy subject, the tone of your post seems to prevent the usual inflaming of the thread, and forces other users to think long and hard about their arguments rather than write the first thing that came to their minds. As a result, and with a few exceptions, most replies were intelligent and constructive, thus it was pleasant to read through them.
As for the debate itself, my feelings are simply contradictory, and thus not really helpful here. As a summary, let me just say that while I refuse to pay the fee at my local crag for personal reasons (and probably bad ones at that), I almost feel like the 3$ I shell out to enjoy Rumney is not enough, and I always gladly pay it. I've never had the privilege to climb in the Gunks, so will refrain from extending my opinion.
Again, good job on the post.
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petro
Sep 14, 2004, 8:13 PM
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I snuck into Eldo just last Thursday... Me, the boys and my girlfriend all got chased out at the end of the night too, I'm still a little angry that they ended the beer fight between Bones and Whiskey John. That was exactly a week after I didn't pay the camping fee at Black Canyon of the Gunnison. And this last weekend, I snuck past 'em to climb Devil's Tower. In case you didn't know, every National Park I am aware of does not post a "visitor use assistant" to take your cash past 10 or 11-ish. From the Tetons to J-tree.
No double dipping Uncle Sam, BAD Uncle Sam...
Call me what you like. If you're paying, you're either lazy or not creative enough.
I belive that my Civil Disobediance is an admirable trait. 10 bucks? O.K. yeah, at the gunks it's to preserve the land. blah blah lipservice... Fuedalism in disguise, have's and have nots. You can follow the herd all you want bro, just keep your wits about you, you never know if the shepherd is leading you to green pastures or the slaughter house.
I think this discussion would be better served by someone posting how early you have to get to the Gunks to catch the guards sleeping. It's all about finding the secret passage behind the smoke and mirrors.
Rules and bones were meant to be broken.
You don't Haaaaaave to sheepishly follow the rules, you just have to make 'em think you are.
Let's just keep the "free" in freedom.
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curt
Sep 14, 2004, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: I belive that my Civil Disobediance is an admirable trait. 10 bucks? O.K. yeah, at the gunks it's to preserve the land. blah blah lipservice... Fuedalism in disguise, have's and have nots. You can follow the herd all you want bro, just keep your wits about you, you never know if the shepherd is leading you to green pastures or the slaughter house. I think this discussion would be better served by someone posting how early you have to get to the Gunks to catch the guards sleeping. It's all about finding the secret passage behind the smoke and mirrors. Rules and bones were meant to be broken.
I am glad you added that last sentence. If you sneak into the Gunks to climb, I hope you fall and get hurt....bad. You are the kind of tool who fux things up for all climbers. Karma baby, Karma.
Curt
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slablizard
Sep 14, 2004, 8:33 PM
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You have to pay for everything here in the bay area.
Hell I have to pay 6 bucks to go Mount Diablo! That is ridiculous. Or 6 bucks to go Capitola Beach near S Cruz that is covered by algae infested by millions of flies.
They should clean the beach and replace all the rusted bolts at least.
Both places are packed in weekends.
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helmut
Sep 14, 2004, 8:42 PM
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I've started mugging the people with their cash in hand ready to pay any entrance fees. How dare they try to take the 'free' out of freedom!!!
I'm also in favor of stabbing the park rangers if they try to harsh on my buzz.
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jaybird2
Sep 14, 2004, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: I belive that my Civil Disobediance is an admirable trait. 10 bucks? O.K. yeah, at the gunks it's to preserve the land. blah blah lipservice... Fuedalism in disguise, have's and have nots. You can follow the herd all you want bro, just keep your wits about you, you never know if the shepherd is leading you to green pastures or the slaughter house.
Admirable... this long-winded post could have been summed up in:
I don't pay because I don't want to. I doubt that your reasons for sneaking into Eldo are as admirable as your speech portrays. Preserve the land.. blah blah blah. Imagine the s**thole the place would turn into without the funding. Fuedalism, yeah, you are really in the same boat as those Serfs. And as for following the heard... I guess that is why you climb at these places where everyone else flocks to in the masses. Lots of people=many idiots=impact=need to fix=fees. Please don't confuse freedom with free reign. One of the foundations of freedom is responsibility.
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reno
Sep 14, 2004, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: If you're paying, you're either lazy or not creative enough.
Or, perhaps, simply honest:?:
It's odd, I think... the same climbers who bemoan having to help pay to keep areas open, clean, and kept, are also people who think nothing of dropping $140 on a pair of shoes, $60 on a cam, or $300 on an alpine jacket.
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petro
Sep 14, 2004, 8:51 PM
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In reply to: I am glad you added that last sentence. If you sneak into the Gunks to climb, I hope you fall and get hurt....bad. You are the kind of tool who fux things up for all climbers. Karma baby, Karma. Curt
Curt, although I may have come across a bit juvinile, I belive your comment was a bit overboard... I promise not to sneak into the Gunks to climb... Even though it's hard to roll my eyes and puke at the same time.
My argument is that I routinely sneak into National Parks... The discussion appeared to me to have branched a bit into the federal or state government's desire to 'double dip' into the pockets of those who desire to use the outdoors. This land is your land, this land is my land. I have my receipt from the IRS. How many times do I have to pay?
Karma? What does Karma have to do with that? You can't will karma on people, especially bad Karma. I belive that would cause a karma backlash, but what do I know about Karma anyway, I'm a white boy from Colorado... Karma... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Ooh, I better stop before the giant Karma fairy drops her Karma piano on my head.
So, anyone know how to sneak into the Gunks or what?
Oops...
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jaybird2
Sep 14, 2004, 9:09 PM
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Just think of double-dipping into the pockets as a price adjuster for those who use the places and those who do not.
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dingus
Sep 14, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: If you sneak into the Gunks to climb, I hope you fall and get hurt....bad.Curt
Worth a quote, seems to sum up the Conservative Viewpoint, "I hope you die."
DMT
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vicum
Sep 14, 2004, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: Just think of double-dipping into the pockets as a price adjuster for those who use the places and those who do not.
Where are the price adjusters for people who drive on Interstates? For people who need natural disaster assistance in Florida? For people who have kids in school? Tax money goes to support a plethora of projects, many of which may not benefit the average Joe. If it really did work the way you people are suggesting, every year we would get an itemized check list of which governmental services we individually wanted and our tax would be adjusted appropriatly.
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yannbuse
Sep 14, 2004, 11:35 PM
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i just got back from a roadtrip out west, and after living on a showstring budget out of my subaru, im willing to give whatever a park or preserve wants. Why? In the Tetons i had to pay a fee same as in yellowstone and in Glacier national park. Then in banff/jasper national park, everyone was on strike so obviously no one was working the booths, meaning you didnt have to pay and you could go straight on through. What a difference it made, Tetons, Yellowstone, Glacier was perfeclty clean, organsied, beautiful. Up over in canada, the parks were a sh*t hole (awesome climbing though). When i was camping it felt like i was sleeping in the trash. And just because im venting, why is it that campers in canada want huge fires (saw one with 6 feet of stacked wood burning, for 1 family), its ridiculous. Anyways it gave me a good eye opener as to where my money goes when paying for park fees. In any case i encourage paying the fees.
yann
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