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iamthewallress
Sep 23, 2004, 1:29 AM
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[Please note that this is in the Aid forum.]
The hauling thread got me thinking about one of my scarier moments, so I thought I'd start this thread...Please help us all out w/ your own narrow misses.
Here was the scenario: My parnter was leading a particularly scarey pitch. My attention had been pretty intently focused on her as I belayed. When things lightened up a bit, I went to get into the bag to get some snacks or somesuch, I discovered that the haul biner had turned sideways, was open, and hanging onto the edge of the tether cord. I shouted up to my partner to quit moving...and that it was to grim to discuss and immediately went to work trying to rig a back up for the tether. Like the instant that I finished rigging the back up, the biner slipped off the tether and onto my back up.
We had been checking the locker before each haul, and the previous one was no different. I shored things up before the next haul and double checked the locker. When it got to the next belay, the vibrations had worked it unlocked again.
So...The tip of the day (aside from keeping things backed up...and ideally without a pile of slack in the system, which I hope you're all doing anyway) is to use ball lock or other 'double locking' style of biner that can't vibrate open at your haul point.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 2:27 PM
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you should allways tie the haul line directly to the anchor to back up the haulbag, so if the docking tether comes off the haulbag doesn't fall the length of the rope and rip the leaders abdomen in half....definately. That is big wall 101 stuff for sure.
my little story...
I was leading p9 on Zodiac first thing in the morning, about half way up I looked down to find my figure 8 tie in almost completely untied. It could have slipped right out of my harness at any time leaving me hanging on rotten copperheads with no rope.
moral- allways check your knots and buckles and whatnot throughout the day, and especialy in the morning. It's the basic stuff that will get you the chop in most cases.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 3:44 PM
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while hauling up to the heart, we extended the belay PP over a ledge so that the hauling would be done below the ledge (easier hauling).
The first few pigs came up without a problem. We were space hauling a heavy load when all of the sudden the whole load dropped about 6 inches. I looked up and saw that the extension (an 11 mm line) had just developed a core shot.
I called an inmediate stop to all activites and began work on backing the sucker up. I first used a spare daisy that i had to back it up, and finally setup a separate lead line as backup.
we made several mistakes that day that almost cost us. 1 - used a single extension for an anchor (single point of failure). 2 - used part of a fixed line to extend (unknown condition of rope). 3 - extended over an edge (although a very smooth curving edge -- stll an edge, without protection.
-- ricardo
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 3:48 PM
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hey Ricardo, just curious...what did you guys do about the fixed rope with the core shot when you were done?
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overlord
Sep 23, 2004, 3:49 PM
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im not an aid climebr at all, but wouldnt a piece of tape (athletic ir ducttape) over the gate (locking mechanism) solve the problem????
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justin
Sep 23, 2004, 3:55 PM
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: hey Ricardo, just curious...what did you guys do about the fixed rope with the core shot when you were done?
we cut off the core shot section and refixed the rope.
i have the core-shot section at home .. kinda like a grim reminder (souvenir) of what almost happened when we made too many mistakes at once!.
-- ricardo
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: im not an aid climebr at all, but wouldnt a piece of tape (athletic ir ducttape) over the gate (locking mechanism) solve the problem????
---------------------------------
That's cool ricardo, better then just tieing a bite at the core shot in my opinion. way to look out bro.
were you tied into the anchor seperately from the hauling anchor?
Space hauling allways feels pretty scetch to me.
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iamthewallress
Sep 23, 2004, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: im not an aid climebr at all, but wouldnt a piece of tape (athletic ir ducttape) over the gate (locking mechanism) solve the problem???? yeah, or just locking the biner would probly be enough.
We were double checking it to make sure it was locked...Triple, quadruple after it opened, but when it got to the belay we found that the vibrations of hauling had rattled it open again.
Tape would probably help accomplish the same thing as a 'double locking' style biner, but it would be a pain to open should you need to rearrange things at your haul point and would make checking that the biner was locked during the route harder.
Regarding backing up the bag...I always do this, but sometimes the back up has been more slack than I would be comfortable with in the real situation of the bag flying off the tether and onto the back up. Foolishly, I never imagined really needing to use the back up.
Another way to avoid part of this problem which my bf prefers is to tie the docking tether directly into the straps on the bag and haul from the biner...Still need to double check the haul biner, of course.
A final tidbit...Once I thought it would be a good idea to haul off of two biners b/c it would be more redundant. It wasn't. They got jammed inside of each other on like the first haul and needed to be rerigged.
As always, paying attention to things is the best rule for keeping things as close to in control as possible.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 5:33 PM
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oh, ok. I guess I can't really visualize your set up, or where the 'vibration" is coming from. I mean when the bag is hanging there docked at the belay it is just motionless right?
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noshoesnoshirt
Sep 23, 2004, 5:41 PM
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tie a follow-through figure-eight directly into the longer of the two haul loops. clip a locker to the shorter haul loop and lock this into the bight of the figure-eight. this is why decent haulbags have different length loops. you can't lose the bag unless the knot comes undone or the rope breaks.
now, when you get the bag to the belay, tie off the haul line on a bomber point, free the haul line from the hauler, and you're good to go. to access the goodies in the bag just unclip the locker and get that short loop out of the way; you'll still have the bag secured.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: im not an aid climebr at all, but wouldnt a piece of tape (athletic ir ducttape) over the gate (locking mechanism) solve the problem???? yeah, or just locking the biner would probly be enough. --------------------------------- That's cool ricardo, better then just tieing a bite at the core shot in my opinion. way to look out bro. were you tied into the anchor seperately from the hauling anchor? Space hauling allways feels pretty scetch to me.
... yup both me and my partner (who was the one "in space") were tied into separate anchors .. i actually wrote up a whole report about this near miss, but never posted it ..
-- ricardo
RE: backing up at the belay -- i think i'll start doing that too .. i used to just dock the pig with the tether and remove the haul line. and just leave it like that .. until it was time to send it off again, at which time i would reattach the haul line to the pig , and lower the pig out ..
works ok, but it doesn't leave any room for error.. (like what happened to pete when he made a mistake and didn't really attach the haul line to the pig -- result: a flying blue whale!) ..
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iamthewallress
Sep 23, 2004, 5:43 PM
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In reply to: oh, ok. I guess I can't really visualize your set up, or where the 'vibration" is coming from. I mean when the bag is hanging there docked at the belay it is just motionless right?
It didn't unlock whilst hanging at the belay (I doubt...). We checked the locker before the haul. Hauled. Docked the bag when it showed up at the belay. The unlocking must have happened during the haul because we're sure we checked it before. We should have checked the biner before docking it too.
After the initial, potentially horrendous unlocking. We were very anal about checking the biner and cracking it down before and after the next haul (just as I'd bet you checked your knot 800 more times before topping out on Zodiac). It had unlocked again during the haul, so we switched it out to ball locking biners (and about 10 overkill slings of arcane back up rigging to help rest our minds).
I've heard about hauling lockers getting welded shut during hauling. I reckon a similar thing is happening in the tightening direction.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 5:49 PM
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I'm having a hard time understanding which part of the bag was coming unlocked ... but at any rate, its not important to get which part was coming unlocked.. since your tip is very valid regardless.. ball-lock biners can't come unscrewed.
.. i talked to a party who had a screw-gate biner come unlocked during a haul and while the bag was being lowered out, it came off the haul-line. (dont know how, but it did).
.. the bag free fell the whole distance of the lower out line (which was a lead line btw).. and finally came to a stop (by some divine intervention) when the lower out line got tangled in a climbers aiders.
.. they bailed off the wall after that, (rope burn on one of the team members).
-- ricardo
this happened this may, i forget which route they were on.. either the muir, or the shield.. at any rate.
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iamthewallress
Sep 23, 2004, 5:55 PM
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In reply to: tie a follow-through figure-eight directly into the longer of the two haul loops. clip a locker to the shorter haul loop and lock this into the bight of the figure-eight. this is why decent haulbags have different length loops. you can't lose the bag unless the knot comes undone or the rope breaks. now, when you get the bag to the belay, tie off the haul line on a bomber point, free the haul line from the hauler, and you're good to go. to access the goodies in the bag just unclip the locker and get that short loop out of the way; you'll still have the bag secured.
Thanks for posting this clear description of how NOT to loose your bag.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: tie a follow-through figure-eight directly into the longer of the two haul loops. clip a locker to the shorter haul loop and lock this into the bight of the figure-eight. this is why decent haulbags have different length loops. you can't lose the bag unless the knot comes undone or the rope breaks. now, when you get the bag to the belay, tie off the haul line on a bomber point, free the haul line from the hauler, and you're good to go. to access the goodies in the bag just unclip the locker and get that short loop out of the way; you'll still have the bag secured. Thanks for posting this clear description of how NOT to loose your bag.
I would not agree with noshoesnoshirts recomendation, not at all. probly safe enough, but not optimal in my opinion, for several reasons.
First it sounds like he is hanging the bag of the anchor directly with the haul rope. try this with heavy bags and you'll shortly realize that you just screwed yourself. Much smarter to use a seperate docking line with a load relase knot like the Munter-Mule that can be released under tension. This is a fundememntal self-rescue skill and should be common knowledge for anyone heading up on to a big wall for this reason.
Second, I use a Petzl swivel. Which would be imposible to rig if you were tying the rope directly into the haul bag straps.
Third, nylon on nylon is not a good thing where there is potential movement and friction in the system...which there most definately is/can be when hauling. For this same reason harness manufacturers recoment NOT tieing directly into the Belay loop of a harness. At the very least you are going to cause excesive wear and tear to both your haulbag strap and the rope.
Fourth, I see the potential for rope damage trying to haul your bag past a ledge or roof lip.
Fifth, you are not going to easily beable to seperate your haul bag from the haul rope....which is inevitabley neccisary sometimes during a big wall climb. Once that knot has been weighted and hauled on it is going to take some time and effort to get it undone should you need to for some reason. Which given "Murphey's Law" you definately will.
Just some observations. I am not a "big wall doctor," but I have come across some better ways to do things over the years, mostly from doing it the wrong way the first time.
----------------------------------------
Ricardo, DUDE!!!!
Tie your freakin haul line to the anchor buddy! jeeze the thought that you put your life in the hands of a slip knot (Munter-mule I assume) sends chills down my spine. Absolutely no reason not to tie that haul line to the anchor as a back up. YIKES!
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 6:33 PM
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Here is another learning experience i had.
While lowering out the pig from one of the lower pitches of zodiac i managed get the haul line stuck behind a flake!!! with the pig already loaded on the haul line .. (and weighing over 100 lbs) ..
.. lucky for me it was close enough to the belay that i could walk over and pull the line and pig out and around the flake..
The lesson: Dont just lower out the pig without watching where it is going! .. keep an eye on it and guide it (which whatever means neccesary) around obstacles.
-- ricardo
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: ... wow! -- before anyone gets the "chills" .. the worst that would have happened if made a mistake would have been to loose the load .. it would not have been fatal .. (albeit it would have been VERY uncomfortable!!)
don't kid yourself...
uncomfortable?
bro, if your bag came off the anchor and was connected to either your harnees or the end of your lead line (if soloing)...
YOU ARE COMPLETELY FVCKED! :shock:
now, I'm not saying load release knots come untied easily by themselves often....but I have heard of much stranger things happening. Plus it is easy to tie a Munter-mule the wrong way, where it looks right sorta...but it's not right at all.
Seems like you are on board with the back up...just trying to stress the importance of this.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: don't kid yourself... uncomfortable? bro, if your bag came off the anchor and your bag was connected to either your harnees or the end of your lead line (if soloing)... YOU AR ECOMPLETELY FVCKED! :shock:
That is why i posted the reply .. my bag was not connected to either my harness or the lead line.
i dont use the bag as a belayer when soloing .. (way too sketchy in my book, since if the bag cuts loose for whatever reason.. you're dead!)
when i solo i make sure that the bag is never in the same system that i am on.. (except when rapelling down the east ledges.. or bailing) -- (just realized that this is a half-truth -- because when the bag has been lowered out -- its anchor usually shares at least 1 bolt with the lead line anchor that i am jugging -- but you guys get the idea .. -- always try to keep yourself away from the other big load that can wipe you out)
-- ricardo
.. but yes -- i am onboard with the backup .. -- though i think i may just carry a separate daisy to backup to the anchor rather than using the lead line -- the whole thougt of the bag being attached to my continous loop while soloing makes me nervous ..
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 6:46 PM
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hmmmm.... so you disconnect the haulbag from the haul line completely on every pitch?
Reminds me of a story I once read on this web site...something about a "Flying Blue Whale"....
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 6:51 PM
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FYI- here is an idea of what my solo set up lookslike:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=15926
In the photo, I have just rappeled my haul line (Mark of Zorrow pitch, Zodiac). Before taking the shot I retied into the extra slack on my leadline (green), beacuse I am scared to hang on the haulline for too long...a fear I can't seem to shake.
-the Grey bag is a rope bag.
-you can see the haulbag hanging off a seperate bolt with a blue docking line-munter-mule knot.
-there is a blue sling that connects the haul bag to the main anchor power-point. This adds a dynamic belay into the system since the bag will catch my weight before the anchor does.
-the white line (haul line) is backed up to another bolt with a n8 on a bite.
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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: hmmmm.... so you disconnect the haulbag from the haul line completely on every pitch? Reminds me of a story I once read on this web site...something about a "Flying Blue Whale"....
yeah -- thats why i said that there is no room for error.
though in the interest of keeping those below me safe .. i will back it up from now on -- probably with a daisy ..
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iamthewallress
Sep 23, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: I would not agree with noshoesnoshirts recomendation, not at all. probly safe enough, but not optimal in my opinion, for several reasons.
I interpreted it as saying that you should tie and eight around the slack strand of the bag, but not load it (back up only) and haul from a biner at the main point same as usual....which sounded like a pretty good idea to me. Maybe I misunderstood?
I guess I took it for granted that he'd attached the bag to the anchor w/ something besides just the rope (and that the rope wasn't under tension), and maybe that was presumptious. Some old schoolers don't like to use the Munter tether. I just used a daisy (with the tie-in rope backing it up) on my first wall, and it was a hassle, but not a hazard. Munter all the way now...
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crotch
Sep 23, 2004, 7:31 PM
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Great thread.
I usually girth hitch a double-shoulder-length (48"?) sling to the short arm of the pig for the duration of a wall. The primary purpose of this sling is as a "haul line" for pig's short strap. You know the drill where you need to get in the pig and end up trying to pull up a hundred pounds with one arm while hanging so that you can unclip the short arm? What I do is redirect the sling through a higher biner, attach an aider, and then step in the aider to unweight the short arm biner.
Relevant to this thread, the sling also doubles as a backup clip-in point and can be adjusted with a clove to keep it kind of snug during those times that you need to free the pig from the haul line. My munter-mule tether is clipped to my main haul biner, a BD Superlock, which sadly, like the Bayonet Locker is no longer made.
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: 'Bone likes the separate let-out line method as opposed to re-tying the haul line short to use the excess as a let-out which Ricardo described.
not allways true psymche,
On the zodiac I used the "haul line slack lower out method." I used my petzl mini traxion to pul the slack through and carry the weight of the haul bag.
if it doesn't need a long lower out line I just use the docking teather which is aboutr 10 ft long.
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