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valeberga
Sep 27, 2004, 5:17 PM
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Well I'm pretty young and I follow the Beckey guides all of the time! :D
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kman
Sep 27, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: It does not state if these are multi-pitch deals or short sport routes.
Holy crap! You can't seem to understand that it is an ALPINE guide book. :roll:
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adnix
Sep 27, 2004, 5:30 PM
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I think this issue is pretty easy to solve. I got only two questions:
1. Have climbed any alpine routes?
2. Do you like climbing rap bolted routes on those walls?
I bet there won't be too many answers with yes to both. Rap bolted routes are usually a bunch of crap. Full of complex route finding and illogic turns. Besides, if you haven't climbed any alpine routes, you may hide your opinion back into the deep catacombs of your arse.
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hurdles
Sep 27, 2004, 5:32 PM
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who is Fred Becky, and why do I care?
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petro
Sep 27, 2004, 5:37 PM
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I thought Fred Beckey was a myth... Like Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny...
There are so many Beckey routes out there, one man could not do them all. When nobody knows who got the first ascent, the standard default is "I think it's a Beckey route..."
Go Fred!!!
To me, it's a bold statement from a bold man about boldness... What's wrong with that?
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fiend
Sep 27, 2004, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: It makes perfect sense really. Sport climbing, like bouldering, is good training for real climbing.
You know why sport climbers don't climb hard trad?
Because they don't want to.
Know why trad climbers don't climb hard sport?
Because they can't.
I had the displeasure of dealing with Mr. Beckey twice this summer and found him to be a pain in the ass burn-out. It's his guidebook though and he can do whatever he wants with it. Anyone else can step up to the plate and write a guidebook for the area if they so choose. They could even do a guide for just the rap-bolted routes if they wanted to.
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adnix
Sep 27, 2004, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: Agreed, that's why most of the world's best free climbers are primarily sport climbers... |
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valeberga
Sep 27, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It makes perfect sense really. Sport climbing, like bouldering, is good training for real climbing. You know why sport climbers don't climb hard trad? Because they don't want to.
Bullsh*t. :lol: :roll:
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dingus
Sep 27, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: I think this issue is pretty easy to solve. I got only two questions: 1. Have climbed any alpine routes? 2. Do you like climbing rap bolted routes on those walls?
1. A: Yes.
2. A: I'd be ok with it if that is the route of my desire.
For example, I WOULD LOVE TO CLIMB the Great Canadian Knife (were I capable!)... Cuz Skinner, Piana and Rowell were just bolt clipping pansies right?
That's alpine sport, eh? So, uh, yeah, if someone went to all the trouble to bolt up a cool alpine multipitch sport route within my capacity? Hell, I'd get in line and so would lots of other folks.
Mayhaps that is the true fear? Encouragement?
Cheers
DMT
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valeberga
Sep 27, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: That's alpine sport, eh? So, uh, yeah, if someone went to all the trouble to bolt up a cool alpine multipitch sport route within my capacity? Hell, I'd get in line and so would lots of other folks.
If they went through "all the trouble" to do it correctly, on lead and without power tools, I might be one of those in line.
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roughster
Sep 27, 2004, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't care. May sound harsh, but it is just the way I look at ethical issues. And then you bring your family into the argument to make a point. LOSER
Umm its called knowing the things which *ARE* important and climbing ethics are not one of them. Anyways, the point will be mute soon enough. There are bolted routes and hell even what some consider "sport routes" in the Alpine and I would say this will only be increasing in trend. Rap bolting legally with a hand drill is "legal".
I have looked at Beckey's Alpine Guides several times and can certainly recognize their value. If they weren't valuable, no one would give a damn over what type of routes he ommits. As I said previously though (for you end of the thread jumpers :) ), Beckey can choose to eliminate routes that don't meet his ethical standard from his guide, but it just means someone else will come along and do it in another publication.
There is a difference between learning about history and respecting it, compared to blindly following what some would call the *mistakes* as well. Climbing has shown that no matter how significant the figure and no matter how noble the cause, people will move forward with the development of our sport whether the old guard likes it or not.
Maybe I should put a visual in here so people understand what I am saying:
http://edition.cnn.com/...ry/tank.standoff.jpg
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osho
Sep 27, 2004, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: For you to presume that you can tell Fred Beckey what he should or should not put in his guidebook indicates an ego out of control on your part. Curt
In reply to: ...but omitting routes? Not the way to go IMO. |
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drector
Sep 27, 2004, 6:09 PM
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I'm not sure why I would have to climb as hard as him to be able to critque his stance on ethics. I certainly have ethics and opinions as strong as his.
As for leaving out climbs from a guide book; no big deal. He can write it however he wants. He could stick in animal pictures if he wants. All he has to lose are money and respect from those people who he wishes to piss off anyways.
Maybe he really is just an old coot who is bitter because the world changed during his lifetime. That would be sad.
Dave
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dru
Sep 27, 2004, 6:12 PM
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Dingus - Great Canadian Knife was not "rap bolted" per se. It was bolted "ground up" with power drills. Although, some bolts were placed on rappel, they were done after leading the pitch on aid. They never rapped in from the top.
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osho
Sep 27, 2004, 6:12 PM
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In reply to: For you to presume that you can tell Fred Beckey what he should or should not put in his guidebook indicates an ego out of control on your part. Curt
In reply to: In my opinion, a guidebook just isn't the right forum... In reply to: ...but omitting routes? Not the way to go IMO. |
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osho
Sep 27, 2004, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: For you to presume that you can tell Fred Beckey what he should or should not put in his guidebook indicates an ego out of control on your part. Curt
In reply to: In my opinion, a guidebook just isn't the right forum... In reply to: ...but omitting routes? Not the way to go IMO. |
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colkurtz
Sep 27, 2004, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: Umm its called knowing the things which *ARE* important and climbing ethics are not one of them.
You are a conceited moron. Maybe you should be spending 15 minutes/day since April 2002 with your family instead of reading/posting on something as meaningless as rockclimbing.com
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curt
Sep 27, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: For you to presume that you can tell Fred Beckey what he should or should not put in his guidebook indicates an ego out of control on your part. Curt Sheesh Curt?? can't you comprehend what you read??? Or is your ego so out of control that you think people shouldn't be able to state their personally opinions anymore??
Yeah, my reading comprehension is pretty good--better than yours apparantly. Why do you not think Fred Beckey himself should decide what should go in his own guidebook? What gives anyone else the right to tell Fred what he should or should not include in a book that he is writing?
Curt
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dingus
Sep 27, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: Dingus - Great Canadian Knife was not "rap bolted" per se. It was bolted "ground up" with power drills. Although, some bolts were placed on rappel, they were done after leading the pitch on aid. They never rapped in from the top.
To clarify... I believe if a person raps from the top of a pitch and drills holes while hanging from the rope, and subsequently fills those holes with bolts, that person is in fact bolting on rappel, in deed as well as spirit. It only takes one bolt...
I speculate Beckey would leave such a route out of his guide...
Cheers
DMT
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roughster
Sep 27, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Umm its called knowing the things which *ARE* important and climbing ethics are not one of them. You are a conceited moron. Maybe you should be spending 15 minutes/day since April 2002 with your family instead of reading/posting on something as meaningless as rockclimbing.com
Having trouble focusing on the topic?
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dingus
Sep 27, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: What gives anyone else the right to tell Fred what he should or should not include in a book that he is writing? Curt
His publisher perhaps?
DMT
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kalcario
Sep 27, 2004, 6:27 PM
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*If they went through "all the trouble" to do it correctly, on lead and without power tools, I might be one of those in line.*
Except that without some historical background, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between ground-up and top-down, in which case you're kidding yourself that there is any difference in the first place. The ground up-ethic only applies to 1 person: the guy who drilled the bolts ground-up. Everyone else is just clipping those bolts. The only way you can claim some sort of ethical high ground about existing bolts is by not clipping them - it's a little late, once they're already there, to scruple over how they got there, because a hand drilled, ground-up bolt and a power drilled, top-down bolt are indistinguishable. In the Owens River Gorge down here in Cali, about half the routes were put up ground-up and half top-down. There's no way you can stand at the base and tell me which is which just by looking at them.
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roughster
Sep 27, 2004, 6:33 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, my reading comprehension is pretty good--better than yours apparantly. Why do you not think Fred Beckey himself should decide what should go in his own guidebook? What gives anyone else the right to tell Fred what he should or should not include in a book that he is writing? Curt
Reread mine and several other peoples posts.
In reply to: - Means nothing other than someone else will write a guide with them in it and make $$ off of it - leaving them out gets a thumbs down from me. I wouldn't spend money on a guide that won't tell me all the routes - Anyways... Falcon and Smoot will gladly thank Beckey for his omissions. It just means more $$ in their pockets. - Fred's certainly free to publish what he wants - Perhaps a mention in the "ethics" section if he must stand on the soapbox if just for a minute, but omitting routes? Not the way to go IMO. - But the bottom line is that you can write your own if you dont like his book. - Maybe better to include the routes and make some statement why he doesn't agree with such tactics rather than attempting to play god. |
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kalcario
Sep 27, 2004, 6:35 PM
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*Dingus - Great Canadian Knife was not "rap bolted" per se. It was bolted "ground up" with power drills. Although, some bolts were placed on rappel, they were done after leading the pitch on aid. They never rapped in from the top.*
"Rap bolted" means the bolts were placed on rappel. Ground-up means they didn't go to the top of the pitch first.
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osho
Sep 27, 2004, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: Yeah, my reading comprehension is pretty good--better than yours apparantly. Why do you not think Fred Beckey himself should decide what should go in his own guidebook? What gives anyone else the right to tell Fred what he should or should not include in a book that he is writing? Curt
Lol… well I’m still not sure about your comprehension abilities… but you’re good at insulting people if nothing else…
First of all, where did I ever say that Fred Beckey himself should not decide what should go into his own guidebook??? Where did I even say anything directly about Fred Beckey at all?
Second, where did roughster or squish ever tell Fred Beckey that he didn’t have the right to include or exclude whatever he wants in the book he is writing?? I saw where they stated their opinions that they disagreed with how he intends to write his book, and how they personally don’t feel his actions are appropriate… but I missed the part where they made any kind of demand on how Mr. Beckey should make his guide.
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