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on_sight_man
Oct 6, 2004, 4:30 PM
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Primrose Dihedral has had two bolts added above the "aid pin". I guess all the guide books need to be rewritten now to say "just bring draws for the fourth pitch"
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jcinco
Oct 6, 2004, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: Primrose Dihedral has had two bolts added above the "aid pin". I guess all the guide books need to be rewritten now to say "just bring draws for the fourth pitch"
Are you referring to the ear pitch? I don't recall there being an "aid pin" on the 4th pitch, which as I recall, is a handcrack in a corner (just after the downward traversing pitch). Could you be a little more specific?
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on_sight_man
Oct 6, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: Are you referring to the ear pitch? I don't recall there being an "aid pin" on the 4th pitch, which as I recall, is a handcrack in a corner (just after the downward traversing pitch). Could you be a little more specific?
Yes, the Ear pitch (sorry). Apparently, the last pin with a ring in it was used to stand on on the first ascent. There are now TWO BOLTS on the face ABOVE what used to be this last fixed piece. This really bums me out as I have not gotten to do this route yet and was looking forward to the adventure. It has now been tainted. Apparently someone added rap anchors all the way down the route as well meaning you can bail without leaving anything which changes the committment level of the climb also.
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takeme
Oct 6, 2004, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Primrose Dihedral has had two bolts added above the "aid pin". I guess all the guide books need to be rewritten now to say "just bring draws for the fourth pitch" Are you referring to the ear pitch? I don't recall there being an "aid pin" on the 4th pitch, which as I recall, is a handcrack in a corner (just after the downward traversing pitch). Could you be a little more specific?
He's gotta be talking about the ear (really pitch 5 or 6). My guess is the "aid pin" refers to that angle that sticking out a couple inches--holds body weight (and right feet), but doesn't look like it'd hold a fall.
If it's true--too bad. Thrutching up that sandy slut above the "aid pin" is one of the highlights of the route--a psychological crux of sorts, at least for me. There's even gear if you want it--I didn't have big bros, but found a crack inside that took a .75 camalot.
I'd heard that Primrose was to be rebolted, not retrobolted. I wonder if there's some insider info that Ed Webster had originally placed bolts in
those locations? Yes, more specifics, please.
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eastvillage
Oct 6, 2004, 5:11 PM
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Chop chop!
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 6, 2004, 5:13 PM
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why don't you do the climb and see for yourself what the situation up there is before you cry woulf on hearsay??
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takeme
Oct 6, 2004, 5:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Are you referring to the ear pitch? I don't recall there being an "aid pin" on the 4th pitch, which as I recall, is a handcrack in a corner (just after the downward traversing pitch). Could you be a little more specific? Yes, the Ear pitch (sorry). Apparently, the last pin with a ring in it was used to stand on on the first ascent. There are now TWO BOLTS on the face ABOVE what used to be this last fixed piece. This really bums me out as I have not gotten to do this route yet and was looking forward to the adventure. It has now been tainted. Apparently someone added rap anchors all the way down the route as well meaning you can bail without leaving anything which changes the committment level of the climb also.
And, you're sure that it's not the face above the ledge at the top of the ear? That would be about 20 ft. above the "aid pin". There've apparently always been 2 or 3 bolts here, and the climbing is 5.10 face moves--I went this way when I climbed it last fall, because I didn't see a chimney (I guess I forgot that it was "hidden").
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slablizard
Oct 6, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Oh My God! 2 Bolts?? Instead of a pin? Oh No! Sacrilege! You're not risking your life anymore...you're not a real maaaaaaaaannnnn!
(runs away screaming and disappearing ionto the mist)
Just climb.
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dee
Oct 6, 2004, 5:17 PM
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How about using cams?? They worked 20 years ago!
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takeme
Oct 6, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: Oh My God! 2 Bolts?? Instead of a pin? Oh No! Sacrilege! You're not risking your life anymore...you're not a real maaaaaaaaannnnn! (runs away screaming and disappearing ionto the mist) Just climb.
Reading comprehension?
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on_sight_man
Oct 6, 2004, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: why don't you do the climb and see for yourself what the situation up there is before you cry woulf on hearsay??
It may be hearsay, but it's pretty good hearsay. A friend of mine did it this weekend. You can see the new bolts in this pic off climbingmoab.com
http://images.climbingmoab.com/album/source/485.jpg
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jcinco
Oct 6, 2004, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: why don't you do the climb and see for yourself what the situation up there is before you cry woulf on hearsay??
Apparently its not hearsay. Check out:
http://www.climbingmoab.com/...mrose_dihedrals.html
Look at the recent comments at the bottom of the comments section.
slablizard- Learn about the history and path of this route (better yet... climb it!) before you jump in and make a ridiculous comment on something you know nothing about. We are not criticizing sport climbing. We are talking about the cowardly maneauver of retrobolting a section of the climb that was previously somewhat heady. Replacing the pin with a bolt is fine, but bolting a section of chimney that you had to use your wits to get through is lame.
I'm not one to advocate chopping, but in the case of retrobolting like in this situation, such actions may be warranted.
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jsj42
Oct 6, 2004, 5:52 PM
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Can someone say with certainty whether this was rebolted or retrobolted?
If the latter (that is, if additional bolts - above and beyond what were there originally - were installed), was Ed Webster contacted? I can't speak for Ed, but my guess (in talking with him about a similar issue on a different climb) is that he would be very dissappointed and personally offended by this.
In my opinion I'd be happy if the manky old stuff was replaced with modern bolts, but to add additional bolts in places where they weren't there before changes the character and thus experience of the climb. This isn't some multipitch clip up in Red Rocks here, this is perhaps THE most classic desert tower.
I suspect the ASCA was responsible? Perhaps Greg could give us a little more background info (specifically if Ed was contacted)? Perhaps someone who's climbed this before AND after could comment on whether bolts were added or merely replaced?
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slablizard
Oct 6, 2004, 6:06 PM
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I know sorry...Just joking. Not promoting retro-bolting...I stick a finger in me eye and we're even ja?
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hardmanknott
Oct 6, 2004, 6:36 PM
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In reply to: I suspect the ASCA was responsible? Perhaps Greg could give us a little more background info (specifically if Ed was contacted)?
Why not take it up directly with Greg (aka Boltdude on this site) instead of
propagating potentially damaging, unfounded rumors?
BTW, read his bio; it speaks volumes -- LOL.
Hardman Knott
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jsj42
Oct 6, 2004, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I suspect the ASCA was responsible? Perhaps Greg could give us a little more background info (specifically if Ed was contacted)? Why not take it up directly with Greg (aka Boltdude on this site) instead of propagating potentially damaging, unfounded rumors? Hardman Knott
Excuse me but I'm NOT starting a rumor. I'm appealing to someone who is in the know about these kinds of things to see if he has more info. I DID look on the site but couldn't find any info on it - yet I remember Rock & Ice stating that both Primrose and Finger of Fate were to be rebolted, and since the ASCA did sponser the Titan rebolting, isn't it reasonable to "suspect" that maybe they were involved in the Primrose rebolting? I'm not accusing Greg or the ASCA of anything - I simply asked a bunch of questions in the hopes of getting more info out there.
I was clear in my post that I commend rebolting but dislike retrobolting! Isn't the ASCA a REbolting organization? Did I not ask in my post whether Primrose was REbolted or RETRObolted?
I don't appreciate your assumptions that I'm trying to "damage" anyone or their reputations. I've exchanged emails with Greg and he seems like a great guy - I also appreciate the work Greg and the ASCA have done as much as anyone.
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hardmanknott
Oct 6, 2004, 7:01 PM
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And I'm saying that you should take it up directly with Greg, instead of
posting your "suspicions" to a website that gets 50,000 hits a day.
Quite simple. No offense intended.
Hardman Knott
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jsj42
Oct 6, 2004, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: And I'm saying that you should take it up directly with Greg, instead of posting your "suspicions" to a website that gets 50,000 hits a day. Quite simple. No offense intended. Hardman Knott
Maybe because this is a discussion list? Besides, if you really believed in taking up things directly, why didn't you email me directly about my post instead of posting to site that gets 50,000 hits a day?
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hardmanknott
Oct 6, 2004, 7:12 PM
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--because when I see ASCA and retro-bolting in the same thread/sentence,
It's important to illustrate what is fact and what is rumor. The ASCA has
never retro-bolted anything, and as Greg has pointed out many times,
he has declined to add retro-bolts at the request of FA-ists--specifically
to avoid controversy such as this--which could be potentially cast the
ASCA in a negative light.
Hardman Knott
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dsafanda
Oct 6, 2004, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: I suspect the ASCA was responsible? Perhaps Greg could give us a little more background info (specifically if Ed was contacted)?
It sounds to me like you certainly ARE starting a rumor. If you don't give any reason for suspecting the ASCA then it is nothing more than a rumor. Isn't that in fact the very definition of a rumor? I'm with Hardman, contact the ASCA directly if you want to ask them whether they had any involvement.
Out of curiosity, do you want to tell us why you think the ASCA was responsible. Were the bolt hangers stamped ASCA?
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jsj42
Oct 6, 2004, 7:30 PM
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I did not start the this thread - the thread's title is "Primrose Dihedral Retrobolted!" - complete with exclamation point. Why not flame that person for the "rumor." I stand by my comment, once again, I did not say or imply that Greg or the ASCA are a bunch of retrobolting meanies - I said that Greg or the ASCA might have more information about the new bolts on Primrose Dihedrals.
My desire is that classic routes like these retain their original character, for people like me to enjoy, and that the first ascensionist's wishes be respected. My post was an attempt to express that desire and to probe for more information about this specfic case.
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dsafanda
Oct 6, 2004, 7:32 PM
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In reply to: I stand by my comment, once again,
Except that you're really not standing by it. Give a reason that you "suspect the ASCA" and that would be standing by your claim.
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cjcalls
Oct 6, 2004, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Are you referring to the ear pitch? I don't recall there being an "aid pin" on the 4th pitch, which as I recall, is a handcrack in a corner (just after the downward traversing pitch). Could you be a little more specific? Yes, the Ear pitch (sorry). Apparently, the last pin with a ring in it was used to stand on on the first ascent. There are now TWO BOLTS on the face ABOVE what used to be this last fixed piece. This really bums me out as I have not gotten to do this route yet and was looking forward to the adventure. It has now been tainted. Apparently someone added rap anchors all the way down the route as well meaning you can bail without leaving anything which changes the committment level of the climb also.
Do you know that you CAN climb a route and NOT clip every bolt you come across don't you.
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jsj42
Oct 6, 2004, 7:46 PM
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Touche. I re-read my post and saw how it might be read in a way I didn't intend it. I do suspect that the ASCA was responsible for the new bolts on Primrose Dihedrals. From what I know of the ASCA, I find it hard to believe that they would have ADDED additional bolts to the route. If they did add additional bolts, I would expect that they had a good reason (ie permission from Ed Webster) - otherwise my respect for the ASCA would be greatly diminished. They should be given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps there aren't really additional bolts there (as the original poster claims), or perhaps the "additional" bolts simply replace ones that had fallen out during the first ascent.
I personally am glad that the bolts have been replaced, and I'd like to thank whoever did it for their selfless work. IF extra bolts were placed, I would be disappointed, and I'd want to express that disappointment to whoever did it.
I apologize for starting rumors.
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jcinco
Oct 6, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: Do you know that you CAN climb a route and NOT clip every bolt you come across don't you.
That is a specious argument. Having a bail-out option on a scary section of free climbing changes the experience and reduces the commitment level.
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