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itakealot
Oct 18, 2004, 4:09 PM
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foucault and derrida are dead europeans, and their philosophy really doesn't apply anymore, but it is great fodder of college students. This thread reminds me of the LA riots when CNN's expert commentator was quoting durkheim.
You scholars have presented your opinion, but what about the common man? When I queried an carpenter at a construction site about a similar issue, "Rainbow flags? You won't see any f***** rainbow flags in Hemet. If they want to show pride, they need an American flag on their cars." The whole jobsite erupted into laughter.
"Pride" movements arise from a group of people who feel threatened that they will lose their identity: "Knights of Columbus, LAGA, or Neo Nazis." The Knights of Columbus want to keep the Italian culture alive, LAGA is a powerful fundraising and legal group for Gays and Lesbians, and the last group is based on hate in order to protect their beliefs.
So what is threatening "Straight People?"
Gays and Lesbians have always been around. Just look at the artwork from Ancient Rome, then India, and finally Japan, it is just now since the "politically correct" movement of the 80's gays and lesbians have "come out of the closet." Due to the changed social climate, companies have realized the spending power of Gays and Lesbians, which includes: Fitness, Fashion, and Restaurants. Advertising space during "Gay" themed shows is at a premium so could the media be the driving force behind "Straight Pride?"
Pundits may argue that there is enough NASCAR and professional wrestling, as well as shows like Monster Garage where the host is openly saying "Homo" to insult builders on the show.
Or is "Straight Pride" orginating from the modern workplace, like in Hollywood? Do Heterosexuals feel like they are being passed up by Gays and Lesbians? There are laws that punish employers who exploit workers based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, but if a "straight" male wanted to bring a suit against his gay employer, would he be labeled a "Gay Basher?"
The common man's opinion.
Binaries? There is an old Star Trek episode with Frank Gorshim where his face is half black and half white who has to track down a criminal, but it is discovered that it is hate driven since the man he is chasing looks exactly the same, but the black and white are one opposite sides, so Captain Kirk has them transported down to a planet where there hate blows it up, with them on it.
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slobmonster
Oct 18, 2004, 4:13 PM
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I'm with you here, Coylec. I just need to remember to not ask anything I presume to be rhetorical to such a, umm, large audience.
I probably should have asked:
Why does pinktricam feel it necessary to advertise HIS sexuality, if he presumably does not appreciate anyone else explicating theirs?
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tisar
Oct 18, 2004, 4:16 PM
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Out of university for three years now it's the first time I heard someone mention Focault and Butler. Seems I had to start climbing to find people of that caliber again...
For sure one of the best community threads I've read by now. Thanks!
For the "gay pride"/"straight pride" discussion it would be helpful to destinct between the pride of beeing gay / straight and the pride of living your life accordingly.
There's no sense in beeing proud of the way you were born as you have no influence on it. Living your live full aware of yourself and sometimes against the social and ethical mainstream on the other hand is a legit source of pride.
"Gay Pride" is definatly meant in the second sense whereas "Straight Pride" is just a dull expression of a misconceived superiority.
Everytime someone claims to be proud of something he didn't have to fight for or struggle with (I tend to put patriotism into that box too), the suspicion arises that it's just expressed to debase the opponent.
(Sorry if my diminished knowledge of the english language reduces distinction here, but it's hard enough to write anyhow.)
- Daniel
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: I'm with you here, Coylec. I just need to remember to not ask anything I presume to be rhetorical to such a, umm, large audience. I probably should have asked: Why does pinktricam feel it necessary to advertise HIS sexuality, if he presumably does not appreciate anyone else explicating theirs?
Bingo, Seth.
Ed's argument is that he's just tired of hearing about gay pride.
The fact is: if you're a marginalized anything, it doesn't hurt to rise up with supporters and stop slinking around in the bushes.
Its like the green party. I'm a registered green party voter because I firmly believe that supporting the little guy will make the big guys pay attention. Historically, PACs and extreme left and right wing groups may not get the play, but they do influence platforms.
You've got to have extremists to incite change: hence, gay pride. There's tons of gays that don't see the need, too, but those that do help get their existence out there, instead of hiding it under the rug. That, I say, is commendable.
And don't you dare tell me that old, dead white guys have no bearing on todays' society. Human nature doesn't change. While it doesn't always help, knowing the underlying currents of discourse is good in order to make better discernments.
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elvislegs
Oct 18, 2004, 4:25 PM
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[Jerry] GAY PEOPLE MAKE THE BABY JESUS CRY!1[/Jerry]
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dookie
Oct 18, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: There's no sense in beeing proud of the way you were born as you have no influence on it. Living your live full aware of yourself and sometimes against the social and ethical mainstream on the other hand is a legit source of pride. "Gay Pride" is definatly meant in the second sense whereas "Straight Pride" is just a dull expression of a misconceived superiority.
right on the money in my book. Gay pride isn't about being happy about being homosexual, it's about standing up to say 'I don't have to hide it because it's not something to be ashamed of, and society has swept us under the carpet for too long now.'
Straight pride is the exact opposite - seemingly to say 'glad I'm not gay, I'm better because I'm straight'. Gay pride isn't about being better, it's about acceptance and understanding.
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coylec
Oct 18, 2004, 4:33 PM
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Durkheim does a really good job of explaining group interactions, although I'd agree that a majority of his work doesn't apply to a dynamic situation like a riot (there are other theorists who discuss riot sociology).
Yes, Foucault and Derrida are dead (Derrida died earlier this month). It doesn't mean that post-modernism or deconstruction are irrelevant. Because T. Jefferson is dead, does that mean the Constitution is irrelevant? I think not.
It still provides powerful analytic tools to understand the structures within language that bind us.
coylec
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: Have you ever been to a gay pride parade? Or is your knowledge of it based on a second-hand account? coylec
I've seen will and grace. :lol: And I've seen them on the news. Can't say I'm terribly interested.
I don't think I'd turn out, even for *gasp* free condoms! :P
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 4:40 PM
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You are so open minded, CI!! Do I need to get my radical friend in to argue points you haven't made yet?? :)
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itakealot
Oct 18, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: post-modernism or deconstruction
the two concepts are like nails on a chalkboard.
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 4:43 PM
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Yeowch! Hey, I've been out clubbing in SF on a Friday night, I've seen gay folks in action (and been felt up. I felt like a cheap piece of meat. Flattering!), so I don't think I'm missing out by not attending a parade (which usually take place on weekends. I climb and surf on the weekends).
As for you, if you keep hanging out with those Greenies I met in SLO, perhaps you're the one not exposing yourself to ideas outside the ivory tower. :P
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 4:47 PM
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Surf? Surf?? When didja do that last, baby? ;)
And trust me, the minute Joe moved away, I quit hanging out with Ryan. He inspired the 9/11 post last week.
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hugepedro
Oct 18, 2004, 4:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Have you ever been to a gay pride parade? Or is your knowledge of it based on a second-hand account? coylec I've seen will and grace. :lol: And I've seen them on the news. Can't say I'm terribly interested. I don't think I'd turn out, even for *gasp* free condoms! :P
Oh man, you're missing out, the parades are the most entertaining part of gaiety. You really should go.
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organic
Oct 18, 2004, 4:54 PM
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2 things:
#1 We have not defined heterosexuality evolution has! We do not have self fertilizing females or many hemaphrodites so heterosexuality is a standard decide upon by nature as to support the continued existence of the human race!
#2 It is not prudent to have pride truly but to accept ourselves and enjoy who we are! Pride cometh before the fall and the fact that there is a "Gay pride" day stresses the fact of how unsure some of them are of themselves. If they are truly gay and it is who they are why stress about it just be who you are. I think many times people have thought like maculated and for some reason or another have chosen to be gay. But that is as absurd as myself choosing to be straight. You are who you are with or without pride, without or without marriage and with or without a special day or a sticker on your car.
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 4:55 PM
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Uhhh, no comment! But I think about surfing all the time! 8^)
That Ryan guy was a trip. Amusing to watch, but listening to a True Believer (of anything) usually makes my spine tingle.
Back to subject: I don't have 'straight pride.' It's just who I am. People who define themselves through sex, either by the kind of sex they have, the frequency, number of partners, whatever, have always struck me as missing out on something. It's just not a focal point for me, and I'm better off spending my time on other pursuits.
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tradman
Oct 18, 2004, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: People who define themselves through sex, either by the kind of sex they have, the frequency, number of partners, whatever, have always struck me as missing out on something. It's just not a focal point for me, and I'm better off spending my time on other pursuits.
Welcome, healthy well-adjusted human being!
:wink:
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 4:59 PM
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In reply to: #1 We have not defined heterosexuality evolution has! We do not have self fertilizing females or many hemaphrodites so heterosexuality is a standard decide upon by nature as to support the continued existence of the human race!
Not neccessarily. There are plenty of homoerotic beasts out there, too. History has shown that homoerotic individuals have produced offspring in the human race as well. Also - this is an irrefutable argument - by allowing said homoerotic individuals to be themselves instead of marrying in the closet, we are helping keep the exploding population down. In the end, this means less population growth, which ultimately helps the human race - evolution?
In reply to: #2 Pride cometh before the fall and the fact that there is a "Gay pride" day stresses the fact of how unsure some of them are of themselves. If they are truly gay and it is who they are why stress about it just be who you are. I think many times people have thought like maculated and for some reason or another have chosen to be gay.
Oh man. Did you not read the thread? I ask you to refute this:
Marginalized people are NOT happy. Why the HELL would you CHOOSE to be oppressed? Why would you risk rejection from family, friends, government, and society by choosing something like that??
Gay Pride allows people to not have to fight against something some of this society deems as "wrong." Can you, just for one moment, consider what it might be like to have someone tell you that a huge aspect about you makes you "wrong?" It SUCKS. IT SUCKS IT SUCKS!!!
So tell me again why you would choose oppression. It sure doesn't make you popular, and don't we all just want to be loved?
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 5:00 PM
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Don't need to defend yourself to me, CI, you know I respect you. I just hate you. :)
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: Don't need to defend yourself to me, CI, you know I respect you. I just hate you. :)
Well, as long as that's settled. 8^)
Hate away! :)
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 5:06 PM
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{CaughtInside}}}}}}}}}}}}
:D
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coylec
Oct 18, 2004, 5:11 PM
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Organic's #1: Did you not see the Daily Show with the gay pengiuns? Yes, there are gay pengiuns. How does that work?
Organic's #2: Mac did this, I don't have to.
IC: "will and grace". I hate that show. I hate everything about it. It is patronizing, disgraceful and irresponsible. I have a feeling that in 30 years, we're going to be viewing that show the same way we think abotu Amos and Andy. At least I hope so.
coylec
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bumblie
Oct 18, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: {{{{{{{{{{{{{CaughtInside}}}}}}}}}}}} :D
Way to stick to your guns..... for six whole minutes. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 5:33 PM
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Hate is such a fleeting emotion. :)
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maculated
Oct 18, 2004, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: You scholars have presented your opinion, but what about the common man? When I queried an carpenter at a construction site about a similar issue, "Rainbow flags? You won't see any f***** rainbow flags in Hemet. If they want to show pride, they need an American flag on their cars." The whole jobsite erupted into laughter.
Itakealot, this is a big argument based on the fact that you start threads like "Do guys prefer girls who r hot or rich?"
You are showing your ignorance by quoting people who are "common" because they refuse to weigh an issue and let their judgements be their compass.
In reply to: "Pride" movements arise from a group of people who feel threatened that they will lose their identity: "Knights of Columbus, LAGA, or Neo Nazis." The Knights of Columbus want to keep the Italian culture alive, LAGA is a powerful fundraising and legal group for Gays and Lesbians, and the last group is based on hate in order to protect their beliefs.
Dude, Knights of Columbus is sort of like a Catholic men's service fraternity. It has nothing to do with Italy. Especially since Columbus was actually Spanish. "Christobel Colon."
In reply to: YOr is "Straight Pride" orginating from the modern workplace, like in Hollywood? Do Heterosexuals feel like they are being passed up by Gays and Lesbians? There are laws that punish employers who exploit workers based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc, but if a "straight" male wanted to bring a suit against his gay employer, would he be labeled a "Gay Basher?" The common man's opinion.
That is the ignorant person's opinion. Read Ed's replies. He was subjected to idiots of all creeds. And he sees them as "idiots." Not gay idiots or black idiots.
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caughtinside
Oct 18, 2004, 5:44 PM
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In reply to: {{{{{{{{{{{{{CaughtInside}}}}}}}}}}}} :D
Aw shucks! :oops: :oops:
:D
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