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tradman
Oct 18, 2004, 8:35 AM
Post #126 of 131
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Registered: Jan 14, 2003
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In reply to: Perhaps a better rule would be that no one can post anonymously at RC.com, in any forum where actual climbing knowledge is required. This would help prevent people from posting utter nonsense like your post above. Randy Vogel thinks back-clipping is a non-issue and so do I. Jay Tanzman, although on the other side of the issue, has also never seen or heard of anyone coming unclipped from a rope in his 20+ years of climbing from a back-clipped carabiner. Together, we have over 75 years of frequent and regular climbing experience. I call BS on you claiming to have seen this twice yourself. Go back to posting in Community where at least your false and misleading posts are harmless. You can call BS all you like, that doesn't alter the fact that I have seen it happen: once in february last year at Stob Coire nan Lochan, and once in (I think) September the year before at a sport crag called Benny Beg. Nobody here seems to be debating that the possibility of back clipping at least exists, so why is it inconceivable that it could actually happen? In addition, consider this: you've clearly been climbing far longer than I have, so doesn't it make sense that you would be climbing with more experienced partners than most, who are therefore less likely to back clip?
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curt
Oct 18, 2004, 9:55 PM
Post #127 of 131
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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In reply to: In reply to: Perhaps a better rule would be that no one can post anonymously at RC.com, in any forum where actual climbing knowledge is required. This would help prevent people from posting utter nonsense like your post above. Randy Vogel thinks back-clipping is a non-issue and so do I. Jay Tanzman, although on the other side of the issue, has also never seen or heard of anyone coming unclipped from a rope in his 20+ years of climbing from a back-clipped carabiner. Together, we have over 75 years of frequent and regular climbing experience. I call BS on you claiming to have seen this twice yourself. Go back to posting in Community where at least your false and misleading posts are harmless. You can call BS all you like, that doesn't alter the fact that I have seen it happen: once in february last year at Stob Coire nan Lochan, and once in (I think) September the year before at a sport crag called Benny Beg. Nobody here seems to be debating that the possibility of back clipping at least exists, so why is it inconceivable that it could actually happen? In addition, consider this: you've clearly been climbing far longer than I have, so doesn't it make sense that you would be climbing with more experienced partners than most, who are therefore less likely to back clip? Perhaps I misread your previous post. Are you saying that you have merely seen a back-clipped carabiner twice before--or that you have actually seen a rope come unclipped from a carabiner that was back-clipped? Obviously, there is a huge difference. I certainly don't doubt the former at all. Also, with standard length runners that are often used in trad climbing, it is often not even possible to tell if a carabiner is back-clipped or not. I think someone else mentioned this as well. Curt
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hugepedro
Oct 18, 2004, 10:29 PM
Post #128 of 131
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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Well, being the Curious George that I am, I tried Jay's parlor trick. Stood in the middle of room, rope back-clipped through a draw, holding only the top biner, jerked the rope downward. No matter how many times I tried I couldn't get the rope to unclip, the draw always twisted. So then I held the draw flat against a wall, still couldn't get it to unclip. Then holding the draw flat against the wall with my hand pinning it less than 1 inch above the bottom biner, and with my foot on the rope providing tension from below, I finally got it to unclip. Even then it only worked about 2 out of 7 times. My conclusions from my exhuastive testing: The chances of the rope unclipping due to back-clipping is exactly 1 in 68,322. Not likely, but it still could happen. And if you're sport climbing there's no point in adding any additional risk if you don't have to, right? Personally, I'll remain more worried about lightening. I think next time I'm at a sport crag I'm going to back-clip everything just to witness the knashing of the teeth - should be entertaining.
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tradman
Oct 19, 2004, 9:35 AM
Post #129 of 131
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Registered: Jan 14, 2003
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In reply to: Perhaps I misread your previous post. Are you saying that you have merely seen a back-clipped carabiner twice before--or that you have actually seen a rope come unclipped from a carabiner that was back-clipped? Obviously, there is a huge difference. I certainly don't doubt the former at all. Also, with standard length runners that are often used in trad climbing, it is often not even possible to tell if a carabiner is back-clipped or not. I think someone else mentioned this as well. Okay, I'll clarify: I have actually seen a rope unclip because of a back-clip. Twice. Once was at a sport crag, when I was belaying. I shouted to my partner that he'd backclipped, but he was only one bolt from the top and past the crux, so he pushed on for the top. He barn doored and slipped, and the rope came unclipped and he dropped to the next bolt. The other time was in winter. I was climbing a parallel line to a guy who had just placed a hex in a side-crack at the right of the slabby exit to a chimney about 120m off the deck. I was waiting for my second to join me before the next pitch and watched the guy, only about 20 yards away, clip the sling on the hex, then move up the slab looking increasingly nervous and scratching with his axes and cramps. Then he took a slip, face-planted the slab and was shot past the hex at high speed and back into the chimney below, to end hanging about 10 feet above his belayer, who was in a sentry box. The hex was intact as was the sling and biner (and the climber, who was screaming curses). I've always assumed it was a back-clipping incident because he was howling, "F*CKING BACK CLIP! F****CK!". I'm only saying what I saw and heard, and whether or not anyone believes it, I do tend to avoid back clipping.
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drumnaaron
Nov 1, 2004, 12:08 PM
Post #130 of 131
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Registered: May 4, 2004
Posts: 30
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In regards to your statement about what climbers should learn first. Thank you, for that was all I was trying to do.
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drumnaaron
Nov 1, 2004, 12:15 PM
Post #131 of 131
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Registered: May 4, 2004
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HA HA HA - SUCKERRRRRRRRR
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