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vertical_reality
Oct 22, 2004, 1:57 PM
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On the news this morning there was a segment about numerous incidents where vandalism, fights and other acts of violence have occured between Democrats and Republicans.
From what I've seen so far, both political camps and been acting like children and have turned the election into nothing more then a popularity contest.
I was not living in the US for the last election and I was wondering if this type of stuff usually happen around election time or if it maybe a result of the way both parties have been acting toward each other?
(No need to cite examples or blame a party, just wondering if anyone thought that the actions of these public might be a result of the actions of the parties)
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arrettinator
Oct 22, 2004, 2:34 PM
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Where I'm from it's always been like that.
It's not only political, either.
If you're a Pitt or Penn State fan.
If you're kid's an honors student.
If you like Chevy or Ford....
We don't discriminate in these parts.
We hate everyone the same. :roll:
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bumblie
Oct 22, 2004, 2:46 PM
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An excellent example of the trickle down theory. The low brow behavior displayed by both candidates has definitely lowered the standard of what is acceptable.
I've been following Presidential races since 1976. Up through the 96' race, the rhetoric (for the most part) was above board. In other words, the candidates displayed the kind of character we look for in our leaders.
In '84, Reagan's big zinger on Mondale was "There you go again". Subtle and effective.
In 2000, the campaigns set a new low for unseemly behavior... McCain's treatment in the primaries... Gore's "third grader" behavior in the first debate... The way the election process was dragged out and through the
mud. The whole campaign was disgusting. But compared to this campaign, it was not that bad.
Bummer. :(
BTW Excellent topic and opening post. :wink:
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iltripp
Oct 22, 2004, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: An excellent example of the trickle down theory. The low brow behavior displayed by both candidates has definitely lowered the standard of what is acceptable. I've been following Presidential races since 1976. Up through the 96' race, the rhetoric (for the most part) was above board. In other words, the candidates displayed the kind of character we look for in our leaders. In '84, Reagan's big zinger on Mondale was "There you go again". Subtle and effective. In 2000, the campaigns set a new low for unseemly behavior... McCain's treatment in the primaries... Gore's "third grader" behavior in the first debate... The way the election process was dragged out and through the mud. The whole campaign was disgusting. But compared to this campaign, it was not that bad. Bummer. :( BTW Excellent topic and opening post. :wink:
The debate back then was much better than now. Even when they insulted eachother, they did it better. Who could forget what Bentsen said to Quayle in '88 after Quayle compared himself to Jack Kennedy:
"Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy"
Back to the original topic: I think a lot of what has happened comes from the vast polarization that has occurred lately. These days, you don't just disagree with Bush, but you hate him too. It's really pretty sad that in an election that will have such a remarkable turnout, the quality of discourse is so low.
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the_pirate
Oct 22, 2004, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: ... McCain's treatment in the primaries...
I feel sorry for McCain. For a time I really liked him as a candidate, thinking he was someone with integrity. But now I see him stomping for Bush, after the smear tactics and Karl Rove's whisper campaigns..... from suggesting he was a coward responsible for delaying the release of other POWs to calling the homes of voters before the South Carolina primary, insinuating that his adopted daughter from Bangladeshi was actually his own illegitimate black daughter.
What motivates a person to endorse people that treated him with such a level of disrespect? It can't just be party loyalty.
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fecalquisinart
Oct 23, 2004, 2:02 AM
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Yes, there has been a lot of violence against Republicans. Most recently when Ann Coulter was attacked in AZ by two liberal thugs.
Read the following:
We'll begin in Madison, Wisconsin
From WISC - TV
Swastika Burned Into Grass On Bush-Cheney Supporter's Lawn
Homeowner: 'My Signs Are Going Right Back In The Yard'
Moving on to Knoxville, TN, we have this report from WBIR - TV
Shots fired into Knox Bush/Cheney headquarters
An unknown suspect fired several shots into the Bearden office of the Bush/Cheney re-election campaign Tuesday morning.
From the Vail, CO area:
a landowner offers a $5,000 reward for info leading to the arrest of those responsible for cutting Bush/Cheney campaign signs with a chainsaw.
From the Seattle Times:
Bush's state headquarters for re-election burglarized
Vandals hit local Bush headquarters in Oxford, Mississippi
- The Daily Mississippian
And that is just for starters. All of that violence from people who claim to love peace. What a bunch of lying jagoffs.
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the_pirate
Oct 23, 2004, 4:59 AM
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In reply to: All of that violence from people who claim to love peace. |
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prufrock
Oct 23, 2004, 5:54 AM
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In reply to: From what I've seen so far, both political camps and been acting like children and have turned the election into nothing more then a popularity contest.
I don't agree with that -- Americans don't get to criticize our political system as if we were separate from it. We aren't. American politics is Americans, plain and simple. It's our government, we are completely responsible for it.
That said, both parties are not, in general, acting like children. Minority aspects of both parties are, as they do every year. It is hard to say if it is worse than usual. With a polarized, urban/metro electorate, it becomes very vogue for the media to play up differences.
I assure you that the average tactic used to keep blacks from voting in the South in the past would make the worst of today's offenses seem like nice manners.
FQ's predictable view of "Democrats are evil" is nonsense, as there are shit heels on both sides. It is also rather lame to assume all Democrats are pacifists. But his rhetoric is a result of the politics of division, which is not new. It's modern appearance dates back to Richard Nixon. He was the first master of it (he was good enough at it that many didn't realize he was doing it.)
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cantclimbforsht
Oct 23, 2004, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: Yes, there has been a lot of violence against Republicans. Most recently when Ann Coulter was attacked in AZ by two liberal thugs.
are you kidding? they through a f*cking pie at her. Maybe you could call them clowns, but not thugs. And by the way, the video of her looking like she was about to crap herself when she saw two college kids with pies run onto the stage was one of the funniest things ive ever seen.
and for the rest of the stuff about attacks on republican offices. yeah its stupid, but the same thing happens on both sides. maybe you should read the first post again.
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fecalquisinart
Oct 24, 2004, 1:00 AM
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Okay shthead or whatever your name is...show me some examples.:)
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iltripp
Oct 24, 2004, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: Okay shthead or whatever your name is...show me some examples.:)
I had a friend who got in an argument with an asshole trying to destroy his Kerry/Edwards signs. After the argument, the bushee came back and slashed his tires...
There are tons of other examples. What in the world makes you think this is a purely liberal phenomenon?? Are you really that close-minded?
I'm not sure what is more ignorant: your statement that liberals are all pacifists or your claim that its just anti-republican violence going on.
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jpearl
Oct 24, 2004, 5:04 AM
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For all it's worth, this election has become a no-win situation, due in part to the candidate bashing and mud slinging. It's a loss because instead of voting for the better man to win, we are voting to make the more hated guy loose.
To not hide or show a bias, I myself will once more be voting for George Bush, and I fully support my girlfriend who is voting for John Kerry. We are both mature voters who have our reasons for who we vote for. We discuss politics like adults with the full kowledge that we ourselves are not politicians. In the end, we simply have dinner riding on who wins.
As for as the thread topic goes, here in NYC, I've seen Kerry supporters intimidating and harassing Bush supporters, including Bush supporters who were assualted at the RNC (see www.protestwarriors.com). I've seen not so much opposition of Bush as I have seen clear cut hatred of Bush and all of his supporters. My opinion is that the chaos and anarchy that raged outside the RNC is what a John Kerry America will be like.
One thing that I have not seen from the Bush camp that I have seen from the Kerry camp is vandalism. The Communist World Workers Party a.k.a United for Peace and Justice has slathered New York City with large stickers denouncing Bush, America, and Israel. Subway cars, mailboxes, storefronts, apartment buildings, lightposts, and streetsigns have all been covered by virulent anti-Bush stickers.
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pancaketom
Oct 24, 2004, 5:59 AM
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It is amazing how much hate there is this round. I have heard of windows smashed because of bumper stickers, and signs ripped out of people's front yards more than once... sad.
While there has probably always been some rage against the other's people (like Nixon), I think it really got elevated during the 90's with Rush et al.
It is too bad each side has to scream the other is the next Hitler, or going to cause the destruction of America or whatever instead of explaining what it is about their policies that they don't agree with. Welcome to 21st. century america. Just wait 'til after the election when the lawyers get started disputing everything... time to take a few weeks off to go climbing.
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prufrock
Oct 24, 2004, 6:37 AM
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In reply to: For all it's worth, this election has become a no-win situation, due in part to the candidate bashing and mud slinging.
There is actually a very simple reason the campaign has a lot of mudslinging. Bush is having a hard time getting his numbers above 50%. His political advisors have decided it is not going to happen. Bush has very little record that is safe to run on. There is therefore only one option left to allow Bush to win: drive up his opponent's negatives. It is campaigning 101.
In reply to: One thing that I have not seen from the Bush camp that I have seen from the Kerry camp is vandalism.
That's because you are not looking -- selection or confirmation bias can be an amazingly powerful thing. Hang out on the lefty blogosphere -- you'll find more than you can shake a stick at.
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prufrock
Oct 24, 2004, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: Just wait 'til after the election when the lawyers get started disputing everything... time to take a few weeks off to go climbing.
Actually, it seems to me that would make it time to figure out how to fix our democracy. It can't be repeated enough: however bad American politics sucks, it is simply a reflection of us, as Americans. It's our baby.
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jpearl
Oct 24, 2004, 4:18 PM
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"There is actually a very simple reason the campaign has a lot of mudslinging. Bush is having a hard time getting his numbers above 50%. His political advisors have decided it is not going to happen. Bush has very little record that is safe to run on. There is therefore only one option left to allow Bush to win: drive up his opponent's negatives. It is campaigning 101."
Actually, Prufrock, that is just an assumption. Some media outlets will tell you one set numbers, another will tell you quite the opposite. Bush is still leading in the overall polls, and many people are satisfied with his job performance. Bush didn't cause the economic recessions associated with the dot.com and tech crashes, and he didn't cause the post-September 11th economic downfall. He did, though, oversee the creation of over 300,000 new jobs in the last quarter alone. Trust me, I'd rather get my info on the economy and business from my associatess who are Columbia MBAs than from Michael Moore and Jeanine Garafolo soundbites on CNN.
And for the record, here is John Kerry's record after 20 years in the Sentate. These are the bills he's passed:
* S.791: Authorizes $53 million over four years to provide grants to woman-owned small businesses. (1999)
* S.1206: Names a federal building in Waltham, Massachusetts after Frederick C. Murphy, who was killed in action during World War II and awarded (posthumously) the Medal of Honor. (1994)
* S.1636: A save-the-dolphins measure aiming“to improve the program to reduce the incidental taking of marine mammals during the course of commercial fishing operations.” (1994)
* S.1563: Funding the National Sea Grant College Program, which supports university-based research, public education, and other projects “to promote better understanding, conservation and use of America’s coastal resources.” (1991)
* S.423: Granting a visa and admission to the U.S. as a permanent resident to Kil Joon Yu Callahan. (1987)
And here are two bills he co-authored that became bills in modified law:
* H.R.1900 (S.300): Awarded a congressional gold medal to Jackie Robinson (posthumously), and called for a national day of recognition. (2003)
* H.R.1860 (S.856): Increased the maximum research grants for small businesses from $500,000 to $750,000 under the Small Business Technology Transfer Program. (2001)
Finally, four joint-venture bills:
* S.J.Res.158: To make the week of Oct. 22 — Oct. 28, 1989 “World Population Awareness Week.” (1989)
* S.J.Res.160: To renew “World Population Awareness Week” for 1991. (1991)
* S.J.Res.318: To make Nov. 13, 1992 “Vietnam Veterans Memorial 10th Anniversary Day.” (1992)
* S.J.Res.337: To make Sept. 18, 1992 “National POW/MIA Recognition Day.” (1992)
Yep, that's all that Super John Kerry-Hienz has to show for 20 years in the senate. But hey, can that man hunt geese or what?
And yes, I've read the blogs. Should we create a whole big, long, bandwidth-wasting thread on what the Republican and Democrat blogs say?
"That's because you are not looking -- selection or confirmation bias can be an amazingly powerful thing. Hang out on the lefty blogosphere -- you'll find more than you can shake a stick at."
Sorry Prufrock, wrong again. I live here in NYC and I have yet to see anti-Kerry vandalism. If you'd like, you can come to NYC, search around for anti-Kerry vandalism and point it out to me.
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monkey_toes
Oct 24, 2004, 4:35 PM
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You should take a spin around New Hampshire - I've seen plenty of Anti-kerry vandalism.
*signs ripped out of gardens and thrown in the road
*paintballed kerry/edwards signs
And this is just within a 5 mile radius of my house.
Oh and my wife had a load of abuse hurled at her by some guy as she was driving our daughter to school last week. Which is still confusing to me since right next to her Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker is an NRA sticker.
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prufrock
Oct 24, 2004, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: Actually, Prufrock, that is just an assumption..
No, it is not, at least not the polling part. Bush is "leading" in most of the polls, or tied. Talk to anyone that has run a political campaign -- that is a major problem for Bush. He is below 50% in almost all polls. Bush campaign people admit today that he is not ahead beyond the margin of error in any state that matters.
That is bad news for an incumbent -- indeed, if Bush does not turn it around in the next 10 days, he loses. I guarantee you any political consultant will tell you that off the record. A study in the late 80's of hundreds of races indicated that undecideds break for the challenger by a 4 to 1 margin. The undecideds are small, but enough to tip the balance for Kerry.
I have no desire to get into a pissing match over candidate records -- there is zero chance of persuasion here. But it is fairly well accepted that Bush is afraid of his record. If you don't believe me, study some other incumbent campaigns. You'll notice Bush isn't really running one: he is trying to run as a first time candidate. There is a reason.
And your just plain wrong about the lack of Kerry vandalism: completely wrong. I've seen numerous complaints about just that on Daily Kos. You just don't look for it.
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jpearl
Oct 25, 2004, 3:52 AM
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Prufrock, don't you know that Daily Kos will fill you with lots of anti-Bush stuff just like Little Green Footballs will fill you with lots of anti-Kerry stuff? The only difference is that Daily Kos is an angry raging blog full of out-of-the-arse lengthy empty winded catch phrases, and LGF actually has facts.
And you're still welcome to come to NYC and point out some of this anti-Kerry vandalism you mentioned. I've been all over this city, and I still have yet to see it.
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bumblie
Oct 25, 2004, 1:25 PM
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Prufrock,
What's wrong with your memory. We discussed the disproportionate level of anti-Bush violence a few weeks ago. I gave numerous examples of serious violence/vandalism against Bush supporters of which you didn't provide a single similar example against Kerry people.
Among the examples I gave were gunshots being fired into a campaign headquarters, a swastika being burned into a man's yard, computer theft from a campaign headquarters and anti-Bush people forcing their way into a campaign headquarters in which a woman had her arm broken.
I think your response was to repeatedly accuse me of having a Limbaughectomy. Cute catchphrase, but completely irrelevant. BTW I think Rush is a loudmouth idiot.
It seems like your standard MO is to discount proven facts or deny them all-together and then attack the intellegence people who don't see things your way.
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iltripp
Oct 25, 2004, 2:12 PM
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In reply to: Prufrock, don't you know that Daily Kos will fill you with lots of anti-Bush stuff just like Little Green Footballs will fill you with lots of anti-Kerry stuff? The only difference is that Daily Kos is an angry raging blog full of out-of-the-arse lengthy empty winded catch phrases, and LGF actually has facts. And you're still welcome to come to NYC and point out some of this anti-Kerry vandalism you mentioned. I've been all over this city, and I still have yet to see it.
And www.protestwarrior.com is such a trusted resource....
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tradman
Oct 25, 2004, 2:23 PM
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Doesn't it bother anyone that in a discussion about the forthcoming US preseidential election there's open discussion about whose supporters are the more violent?
:?
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bumblie
Oct 25, 2004, 2:34 PM
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Maybe you should read this thread from the start. :roll:
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g
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Oct 25, 2004, 2:58 PM
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Boy, when I first saw this thread, I basically ignored it because I thought it would die quickly.
There has been vandalism by Bush supporters, it is a simple fact. One of the Las Vegas nightly news shows had a program that covered both sides last night. Most of this is pretty benign, and I don't pay it much attention. What I find interesting is that people are deeply upset by politically motivated violence (almost exclusively against property) in a country where one of the most well known anecdotes regarding U.S. history is the Boston Tea Party. Political violence is absolutely nothing new in this country, and one could argue that is an American tradition. Certainly political violence swings up and down, but it has always been around. Sometimes it has been ugly attacks against people, and most often it has been more symbolic attacks against property.
Off thread, but I must:
In reply to: Trust me, I'd rather get my info on the economy and business from my associatess who are Columbia MBAs than from Michael Moore and Jeanine Garafolo soundbites on CNN.
Just in case you don't know, having an MBA from Columbia doesn't mean you know anything about the economy. MBA programs train managers. If I wanted to ask someone with a fancy degree about the economy, I think I'd look to the Economics Department at MIT. Of course, when they talk about the economy it has nothing to do with my wallet.
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