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pattray
Nov 11, 2004, 6:13 PM
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Judging by the Newspaper, I’m sure that was written by a completely unbiased writer !!
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climb14er
Nov 11, 2004, 6:49 PM
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You're probably right. However, did you read the article?
arafat had all the symptoms of aids, was at a hospital that specialized in aids care, and was always surrounded (like all arab men) by arab men.
His french wife won't talk about the condition of arafat and if I were her, I'd begin anti-viral thearpy NOW with all the stolen pally money she has.
arafat has always been a midget terrorist that the Israelis should have taken out when they had the chance when they corned the rat in Lebanon in the early 1980's.
I for one an totally glad he's gone for good and celebrate his death with an excellent Isolation Ale from Odells.
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coylec
Nov 11, 2004, 6:58 PM
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What's the difference between a patriot and a terrorist?
You want the patriot to succeed, while you want the terrorist to fail.
coylec
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bumblie
Nov 11, 2004, 7:02 PM
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In reply to: What's the difference between a patriot and a terrorist? You want the patriot to succeed, while you want the terrorist to fail. coylec
You gotta love Liberal humor. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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petsfed
Nov 11, 2004, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: AND yes, Arafat was a terrorist, but I'm not sure he supported the terrorists these last years. He just did nothing to fight against them...
I'm doing nothing to specifically stop terrorism, am I a terrorist?
/sarcasm
//"I have nipples Greg, can you milk me?"
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itakealot
Nov 11, 2004, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Devils Advocate: At one time there was no modern Isreal, although it could be argued Bibilically that the war fought for the existance of that country was legit, even though it displaced the other groups of people who have been co-existing in the region for thousands of years. So the Palestinians just wanted to have their own nation in Palestine, just as Isreal, and they did not have the billions of dollars in US aide, so they fight their own type of war. Castro thought of himself as freedom fighter and claimed to believe in the principles of Thoman Jefferson. My Analogy: Sorta like bolt choppers, they don't have the financial backing to lobby for the eradication and prevention of grid bolting, so they go about it themselves, and the same statement can go for grid bolters, they go and act on their own. A fine display of ignorance. :wink:
The Devil's Advocate or the Analogy?
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bumblie
Nov 11, 2004, 8:29 PM
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The first two paragraphs.
The Palestinians wanted there own little nation, that included all of which is currently Israel. Their plans included the eradication of any Jewish state in the region.
Maybe the Palestinians haven't had their own army, but they've had the support (and armies) of most of their neighbors. In just about every major conflict between Israel and Palestine (and its arab neighbors) the arabs have been the aggressors.
Castro killed everyone who didn't support his form of government. A real free speech advocate.
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coylec
Nov 11, 2004, 8:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What's the difference between a patriot and a terrorist? You want the patriot to succeed, while you want the terrorist to fail. coylec You gotta love Liberal humor. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nothing humorous about it. You want an example of people infliciting violence on others against the conventions of "war", attacking private interests for political goals and using threats of violence to get their poltical goals, look no further than the American Revolution. Since we approve of their goal, we consider them freedom-fighters and patriots. The Crown considered them terrorists and extremists.
I'm not passing judgment on his works, rather, I'm merely trying to remind people that "terrorist" is just a label we apply to people who do things we don't like. If you read the academic literature about terrorism and terrorism control (I'm referring most specifically to the sociology and political science literature, but its also present in most other forms), you'll find that one of the largest problems is to determine what is and is not terrorism from an objective standard.
Can you write a definition of who is a terrorist that does not include people you don't consider terrorists? Various bodies have spent years trying to answer that question unsuccessfully.
coylec
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mwbtle
Nov 11, 2004, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Castro killed everyone who didn't support his form of government. A real free speech advocate.
not entirely true, but I agree with the sentiment.
one of the administrators at my grade school was imprisoned for being anti-castro. She was deported at one point, but they decided after the plane took off that they wanted to imprison her again, so they turned the plane around just to get her back.
She would talk to history classes about it. The stories were shocking...included one on the brainwashing of children...etc etc.
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bumblie
Nov 11, 2004, 8:55 PM
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It's not the goals that I question. It's the methods. Using guerilla tactics to fight the sitting power structure (targetting them specifically) is completely different from different from randomly killing innocent civilians. Granted, there are shades of gray, but the belief that "one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist" is just a load of crap.
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bluto
Nov 11, 2004, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: Nothing humorous about it. You want an example of people infliciting violence on others against the conventions of "war", attacking private interests for political goals and using threats of violence to get their poltical goals, look no further than the American Revolution. Since we approve of their goal, we consider them freedom-fighters and patriots. The Crown considered them terrorists and extremists. I'm not passing judgment on his works, rather, I'm merely trying to remind people that "terrorist" is just a label we apply to people who do things we don't like. If you read the academic literature about terrorism and terrorism control (I'm referring most specifically to the sociology and political science literature, but its also present in most other forms), you'll find that one of the largest problems is to determine what is and is not terrorism from an objective standard. Can you write a definition of who is a terrorist that does not include people you don't consider terrorists? Various bodies have spent years trying to answer that question unsuccessfully. coylec
Another walk down moral equivalence road with Coylec. Does anyone, other the George Bush, earn your condemnation ?
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karlbaba
Nov 11, 2004, 9:14 PM
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Who the terrorists are in the Israeli Arab conflict depends on when you start the clock. After all, there were less than 30,000 Jews in the whole region at turn of the 20th century. Did the Arabs living there just invite them to come move in and take over?
Arafat was a terrorist. So is Sharon and guys like Begin who commited terrorist acts against the British before they left.
There is more to the story than the spin. The original Zionists make clear their plan was to push the Arabs out of the entire region as the opportunity arose, the PLO made clear their plan to push the Zionists out completely too. Nobody's hands are clean over there. Plenty of dead little children on both side but the clear majority were Arab.
I think they would have been better off with non-violent civil disobedience but I'm not in their shoes.
You have ask yourself "What would I do if I were in the shoe of a Palestinian?" The US has made it clear that we are willing to destroy the entire world and every innocent person in it if necessary to defend ourselves from the kind of thing that happened to Palestine.
But that's OK cause it wouldn't be terrorism.
On the other hand, the Jewish folks didn't resort to terrorism when resisting the German State around the beginning of WWII. Didn't work out for them. That's one of the reasons they have decided to play so tough now.
Peace
karl
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bumblie
Nov 11, 2004, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: You have ask yourself "What would I do if I were in the shoe of a Palestinian?" The US has made it clear that we are willing to destroy the entire world and every innocent person in it if necessary to defend ourselves from the kind of thing that happened to Palestine.
What exactly are you talking about?
In reply to: On the other hand, the Jewish folks didn't resort to terrorism when resisting the German State around the beginning of WWII. Didn't work out for them.
Are you saying that if they had resorted to terrorism the consequences would have been different? How so?
In reply to: But that's OK cause it wouldn't be terrorism.
Are you saying that what they didn't do wouldn't be terrorism?
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the_pirate
Nov 11, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: Arafat was a terrorist. So is Sharon
Very true. Arafat's actions did more to hurt his own people than they realize. But the Israelis are not saints by any stretch of the imagination. Both sides killed children with little regard. On one side you have Palestinians blowing themselves up on busses and at weddings. On the other, you have Israeli gunships firing missiles into crowded markets and bombing entire villages to kill one or two suspected terrorists.
It will be interesting to see what happens next. $20 says something gets blown up.....
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qqclimber
Nov 11, 2004, 10:05 PM
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In reply to: It will be interesting to see what happens next. $20 says something gets blown up.....
That's hardly a gamble. In Israel/Palestine something is always getting blown up. :roll:
A patriot is just a successful terrorist :wink:
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madriver
Nov 11, 2004, 10:14 PM
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...so what about in this day and age.....if a "patriot" is a religous zealot bent on murder...is he a "terrorist"...or is a terrorist with secular fanatasism a "Patriot"?
love
MR
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thegreytradster
Nov 11, 2004, 10:17 PM
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In reply to: [ you have Palestinians blowing themselves up on busses and at weddings. It will be interesting to see what happens next. $20 says something gets blown up.....
I heard they are going to have a 21 son salute at his funeral :wink:
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karlbaba
Nov 12, 2004, 2:52 AM
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[quote="bumblie"]In reply to: You have ask yourself "What would I do if I were in the shoe of a Palestinian?" The US has made it clear that we are willing to destroy the entire world and every innocent person in it if necessary to defend ourselves from the kind of thing that happened to Palestine.
In reply to: What exactly are you talking about?
The US has enough nukes to destroy the world several times over. It's my bet that before we would allow another people to push us out of the United States and cram us into camps in Nevada and New Mexico, we would use those nukes to whatever extent was necessary, even if it created a snowball effect that ended life as we know it.
According to our way of defining terrorism, the mass killing wouldn't be terrorism because the millions and millions of civilian deaths wouldn't be directly intended, just collateral damage.
In reply to: On the other hand, the Jewish folks didn't resort to terrorism when resisting the German State around the beginning of WWII. Didn't work out for them.
In reply to: Are you saying that if they had resorted to terrorism the consequences would have been different? How so?
I'm not saying that. I don't know what would have changed if the Jews had resisted Hitler and the German violent bigotry machine and desire for "living room" I just know there was a lot of soul searching among Jews afterwards regarding be led to slaughter without much fight.
In reply to: But that's OK cause it wouldn't be terrorism.
In reply to: Are you saying that what they didn't do wouldn't be terrorism?
Just saying we have a definition of terrorism that suits us. Israel can collectively punish innocent people and it's not terrorism by our definition. They can kill and make homeless countless civilians and it's not terrorism. We can kill thousands of Iraqis, even after combat operations are supposedly over, and it's not terrorism.
But if your baby girl gets killed by a terrorist or by Israel, or by the US, you don't make that distinction as clearly
Peace
Karl
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jpearl
Nov 12, 2004, 3:43 AM
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I'm happy!!!!
Why?
'Cuz Arafat is DEAD!!!
DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!! And I can gloat like that, y'know why? Because I lived in Israel (have you, Karlbaba?). I have family and friends in Israel (do you Karlbaba?). I know many people have lost loved ones to Arafat (do you, Karlbaba)And unlike some people who make snap judgements from reading the one-sided anti-Israel reporting in the likes of CNN and New York Times, I witnessed the reality of the the Muslim terrorism that spewed forth from the "Palestinian" Arab settlements in Israel (have you, Karlbaba?).
I'm happy because the father of modern terrorism, the inventor of airplane hijacking (remember September 11th?), the promulgator of the "Palestine" myth, and Hitler incarnate is DEAD! The same Arafat that murdered a Rabbi I knew, along with his wife and two of thier five children. I'm happy because the the man who blew up countless Israelis along with Americans and Internationals is dead. I'm happy that the man who says "peace" to the CNN cameras and "death to the Jews" to Al-Quids cameras is dead.
No tears here (except for the many Israelis, Arabs, and others he murdered), just a big sigh of relief. Arafat was a terrorist, a thief, an extorionist, a thug, a mobster, and nothing else!
Yeah, go ahaead one and all, go on and flame me for being "extremist, insensative, racist, et al..., but I tell you what; Unless you have lived in Israel and had to factor the threat of being killed by Arafat into your day to day life, you can't say anything. Unless you have met the Israelis that have been maimed, crippled, and berieved of loved ones by Arafat, you can't say anything. Unless you've lived it and seen it through your own eyes, you can't say anything.
Arafat is finally dead, may his name and memory be erased from all history, and may G-d judge him for his crimes against humanity. Israel is safer. America is safer. Europe is safer. And for the few of us who know such things, the Arab world is now a safer and better place, and now we can begin to put an end to this "Palestine" sham, remove the terrorist Arabs from Yesha, and build a real peace between Israel and REAL Arab countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.
So go ahead and flame away, I got plenty of ammo to defend myself and I'll prove you all wrong, but all I really care about is that Arafat is dead and though he left behind a trail of death and destruction, Israel has outlived him like we outlived the British Mandate, Hitler, Ottomans, Mamluks, Crusaders, Romans, Greeks, and Pharoah.
Am Yisrael b' Aretz Yisrael Chai!!!
(For the record, I will not be responding to this thread until most likely Sunday night, so save your direct responses 'till then. In the meantime, here's an article detailing a bit more about the life and times of Jacques Chirac's most beloved Arab terrorist. Anyone for a Theo van Gogh film?).
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41320
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curt
Nov 12, 2004, 7:06 AM
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In reply to: I'm happy!!!! Why? 'Cuz Arafat is DEAD!!! DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!!!! And I can gloat like that, y'know why? Because I lived in Israel (have you, Karlbaba?). I have family and friends in Israel (do you Karlbaba?). I know many people have lost loved ones to Arafat (do you, Karlbaba)And unlike some people who make snap judgements from reading the one-sided anti-Israel reporting in the likes of CNN and New York Times, I witnessed the reality of the the Muslim terrorism that spewed forth from the "Palestinian" Arab settlements in Israel (have you, Karlbaba?). I'm happy because the father of modern terrorism, the inventor of airplane hijacking (remember September 11th?), the promulgator of the "Palestine" myth, and Hitler incarnate is DEAD! The same Arafat that murdered a Rabbi I knew, along with his wife and two of thier five children. I'm happy because the the man who blew up countless Israelis along with Americans and Internationals is dead. I'm happy that the man who says "peace" to the CNN cameras and "death to the Jews" to Al-Quids cameras is dead. No tears here (except for the many Israelis, Arabs, and others he murdered), just a big sigh of relief. Arafat was a terrorist, a thief, an extorionist, a thug, a mobster, and nothing else! Yeah, go ahaead one and all, go on and flame me for being "extremist, insensative, racist, et al..., but I tell you what; Unless you have lived in Israel and had to factor the threat of being killed by Arafat into your day to day life, you can't say anything. Unless you have met the Israelis that have been maimed, crippled, and berieved of loved ones by Arafat, you can't say anything. Unless you've lived it and seen it through your own eyes, you can't say anything. Arafat is finally dead, may his name and memory be erased from all history, and may G-d judge him for his crimes against humanity. Israel is safer. America is safer. Europe is safer. And for the few of us who know such things, the Arab world is now a safer and better place, and now we can begin to put an end to this "Palestine" sham, remove the terrorist Arabs from Yesha, and build a real peace between Israel and REAL Arab countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon. So go ahead and flame away, I got plenty of ammo to defend myself and I'll prove you all wrong, but all I really care about is that Arafat is dead and though he left behind a trail of death and destruction, Israel has outlived him like we outlived the British Mandate, Hitler, Ottomans, Mamluks, Crusaders, Romans, Greeks, and Pharoah. Am Yisrael b' Aretz Yisrael Chai!!! (For the record, I will not be responding to this thread until most likely Sunday night, so save your direct responses 'till then. In the meantime, here's an article detailing a bit more about the life and times of Jacques Chirac's most beloved Arab terrorist. Anyone for a Theo van Gogh film?). http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41320
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand your position. In fact, I don't even necessarily disagree with it. However, what if the ultimate replacement for Arafat turns out to be a Hamas member or someone even further opposed to peace than Arafat was? What then?--that is what I worry about.
Curt
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karlbaba
Nov 12, 2004, 7:19 AM
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Hi Jpearl
I don't remember stating that Arafat was a good guy or not a terrorist. It's undoubtedly a good thing that he's dead so the Palestinians can have a better chance at making peace.
I have though, studied the history and position of BOTH sides in considerable detail. It appears that you have a familiarity with ONE side, and I don't know if you even know the detailed history of that side.
I will freely admit that I have some prejudices against Islam. That's why I have studied it and given their perspective due consideration. I admit that I'm closer socially to Jewish folks. My girlfriend of 7 years is Jewish and all her family as well. I have lived full time for a year in an orthodox Jewish household and worked in an Orthodox Jewish Bakery. (before and unrelated to my girlfriend and other Jewish friends)
That's one reason why I'm sad to see that Israel pretends to want peace but acts to prevent peace so they can grab more territory on the West Bank. Many of my Jewish firiends a appalled too.
So when you say "remove the terrorist Arabs from Yesha" Yesha meaning territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war, do you mean ALL the Arab living there, or just the terrorists? What rights do the ones who remain get? How are you going to remove them?
Of course it's a tragedy if you have lost friends to terrorism. I lost a good friend in the towers as well.
I'm sure it was also a tragedy when American Indians raided white settlers during pioneer days too. That doesn't change the fact that these terrors don't happen in a vacuum. There are two sides to the story. Both sides need to learn the golden rule of treating others by the same standards that they expect to be treated by. Until then, they'll keep on killing each other.
Arafat dies of old age at 75. Seems like the tyrants like Saddam, Castro, Sharon, and Arafat manage to have 9 lives.
Of course, you might take offense that I lump Sharon in with those guys. It probably doesn't bother you that he allowed the massacre of over a thousand innocent refugees in Lebannon, among his many other crimes. But their friend and families won't forget just as you don't forget your injured loved ones.
I hope both Israel and Palestine wake up and make a brave peace before bioweopons technology gets so easy to produce that suicide bombing and collective punishment seem like the good old days. Peace, and I mean a just peace, not apartheid, is the only way out. Every other way is just selling your soul for dirt.
Peace
karl
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vertical_planar
Nov 12, 2004, 1:19 PM
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Arafat:
Bad person who has chosen to use violence as a means to bring liberty upon his people.
umm...
wait a moment...
it reminds me of something...
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