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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: One comment I'll make that others might not agree with: why clip the rap rings when you can clip the bolt hangers? one less part between you and the bolt... -t didn't even think of that, the rings were solid rings, not welded, wouldn't the hangers go before the rings? i don't know im just speculating The ring are welded. I agree with the above comment. Never use a rappel anchor system as a sole belay anchor. (if it is avoidable)
Not sure I understand this comment. can you please explain? redundant bolts/hangers are used all the time as a belay anchor. This setup is considered safe. I would simply use lockers and long runners to get clear of the rubble below.
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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Also,
clipping into the anchors directly seems odd to me in the case. Because of the orientation of the hangers, it would be difficult to get a biner in the hanger and the biner will not be able to hang freely. The back of the biner would be rubbing on the rock pretty severely. This doesn't sound good. Placing biner in rap ring allows the biner to hang freely not being obstructed by the rock. Even though the rings are extra hardware, in this case, they might be a necessary addition to keep the biner hanging unabstructed.
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joshy8200
Nov 12, 2004, 6:26 PM
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Welded rap rings are less strong than a bolt hanger?
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 12, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: Welded rap rings are less strong than a bolt hanger?
yes
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robmcc
Nov 12, 2004, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: 4. You shouldn't girth hitch slings together. Check out Chris Harmston's post regarding Girth Hitches on Fish Product's Tech Weenie Webbing Strength . He writes that "[g]irth hitching is weaker than using biners to connect the runners."
I don't agree with this bit. Yes, you lose strength girth hitching webbing, but not so much that it isn't perfectly adequate for top rope anchors.
Overall, I'd say your anchor looks like mine did when I first started building them again. Overly complicated and overly redundant, and taking forEVER to build. You'll get faster and simpler as you gain confidence and understanding.
Rob
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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 7:10 PM
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In reply to: Just one thing. Never use rap rings for protection. People have said to use the bolts and not the rings but they haven't said why. The bolts are MUCH stronger. Rap rings are made for rapping when much lower forces are put on the anchor. They are strong enough to hold a top rope setup but it is a bad habit to get into. I would also add a locker to at least one of the bolts and, like Jay said two biners, opposite and opposed (1 locker) to the power point. The thing with a toprope anchor is that it is out of view for most of the time, as opposed to a lead anchor, where if somethin changes, the belayer is there to keep an eye on it and fix it if necessary. So a toprope anchor must be doubled and backed up EVERYWHERE. If a biner becomes crossloaded or one twists and is against the rock and comes open, chances are you will have no idea. Otherwise, nice job. Josh
Not to be confrontational, but I need some clarification on this.
1)why would a hanger (not the bolt mind you) be stronger than a welded steel rap ring? Can someone point me to a website that has the numbers? thanks.
EDIT: question refined to ask, are the rap ring rating sufficient for top rope forces? searched web, found ring ratings of 22Kn and 40kn. the hangers were rated at 30kN. both numbers sound similar to biner ratings and sound sufficient for toproping ?
2) Is this style of hanger made to have a biner put through it? It looks to me like the biner would be riding on the rock adding stress.
3) regarding the bolded print above. I don't see the difference in a lead anchor and a toprope anchor. The both need to be built as safely and redundantly as possible. A leader is not going to be able to "adjust" an anchor when it is experiencing its greatest forces while the leader is falling. Matter of fact, I would say the lead anchor is more critical because it will experience greater forces than a toprope anchor
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 12, 2004, 7:19 PM
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Typically, the bolt and bolt hanger is considered the belay anchor.
Rap rings(the pictured style), chains, American triangles, fixed equalized slings are all rap anchors.
Rap anchors are generally designed for a different purpose then a belay anchor.
As far as I can find, fixe's website doesn't rate the rings. Anyway it is generally considered bad form to clip the rings instead of the hangers. The main reason being that you should always try to minimize the number of links in an anchors system. Yes, there are instances where it would be preferable to clip the ring instead of the hanger. If such was the case with this anchor, then typically, I would clip a third backup draw, directly to the hanger. (As a compensation for breaking the clip directly to the hanger rule.)
Blueeyedclimber is generally correct in the analysis highlighted above.
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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 7:26 PM
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Interesting,
Found a web site that shows the hanger and ring type used in this anchor. The ratings actually imply that the hanger is the weaker link
http://www.libertymtn.com/catalog.php?type=category&id=3151
From this website, the hanger is only rated at 22 Kn and the ring is rated at 35 kN.
Overall, the entire anchor is only good up to 22kN. This style of hanger is weaker than other hanger styles
Granted this is for a hanger and ring separately, but I assume the rating would be similar for on a set.
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joshy8200
Nov 12, 2004, 7:38 PM
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While I understand the difference between an "anchor" that is set up for a belay rather than a rapel...why if I was setting up a belay anchor that had rap rings attached to the hanger would I worry about clipping straight into the hanger instead of the ring? Anyone know the AMGA opinion on this?
The ring is not going to be any less strong than a biner...and is almost certainly a neglible added link to the system. It also allows the biner clipped into it to hang much more freely in an awkward fall situation the biner's axis would not be constrained position which coud possibly cause weird loading.
What should be noted for any noobies is not to top-rope directly through rap rings! This ain't good because it does pre-maturely wear out the rings.
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joshy8200
Nov 12, 2004, 7:47 PM
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Sweet Lord...that Fixe website has the strength of their stainless steel rap rings at 50kn!!! Those bad boys are put on the hanger to make things EASIER. They surely aren't a weak link.
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 12, 2004, 8:38 PM
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In reply to: http://www.libertymtn.com/catalog.php?type=category&id=3151 From this website, the hanger is only rated at 22 Kn and the ring is rated at 35 kN. Overall, the entire anchor is only good up to 22kN. This style of hanger is weaker than other hanger styles
Fixe sell two types of these hangers. One is rated 18kn(plated steel) and the other is rated 26kn(stainless)
In reply to: Sweet Lord...that Fixe website has the strength of their stainless steel rap rings at 50kn!!! Those bad boys are put on the hanger to make things EASIER. They surely aren't a weak link.
Fixe's website does not give a rating for their rap rings.
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ryan112ryan
Nov 12, 2004, 8:44 PM
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In reply to: Holy crap! Chris is right, but I would go one step less and just have used the two draws opposite and opposed.
as in first draw: bolt one second draw (turned other way): second bolt?
when using quick draws, should i have one cliped facing one way, and ther other facing the opposite way? (not talking about the direction of the beiners on the quick draw: which still seems debateable)
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tahoe_rock_master
Nov 12, 2004, 9:17 PM
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That Anchor is wayyyyy too complicated. It looks like those two bolts are solid, so I would have just put two opposed draws on the bolts and used that. If the bolts were sketchy I would add a cam or nut in the crack below the bolts.
Matt
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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 9:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: http://www.libertymtn.com/catalog.php?type=category&id=3151 From this website, the hanger is only rated at 22 Kn and the ring is rated at 35 kN. Overall, the entire anchor is only good up to 22kN. This style of hanger is weaker than other hanger styles Fixe sell two types of these hangers. One is rated 18kn(plated steel) and the other is rated 26kn(stainless) In reply to: Sweet Lord...that Fixe website has the strength of their stainless steel rap rings at 50kn!!! Those bad boys are put on the hanger to make things EASIER. They surely aren't a weak link. Fixe's website does not give a rating for their rap rings.
I was typing quickly, forgiving me for making a mistake. The point was the ring was rated higher than the hanger. I did not check the FIXE website itself (couldn't find it) but you posted that FIXE doesn't have the rating for the ring, so who knows, still up in the air I guess.
I think one thing I would conclude is, I would tend to be more careful when climbing on these hangers as they are rated lower than other types. I climbed past one of these that was all bent and it made me unconfortable. now I know why. not be a good hanger for lead bolts
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caughtinside
Nov 12, 2004, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: I think one thing I would conclude is, I would tend to be more careful when climbing on these hangers as they are rated lower than other types. I climbed past one of these that was all bent and it made me unconfortable. now I know why. not be a good hanger for lead bolts
18kn sounds more than adequate for the hanger on a lead bolt. I have a hard time envisioning a hanger getting bent from a lead fall. More likely the damage was caused by rock fall.
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crimpandgo
Nov 12, 2004, 10:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think one thing I would conclude is, I would tend to be more careful when climbing on these hangers as they are rated lower than other types. I climbed past one of these that was all bent and it made me unconfortable. now I know why. not be a good hanger for lead bolts 18kn sounds more than adequate for the hanger on a lead bolt. I have a hard time envisioning a hanger getting bent from a lead fall. More likely the damage was caused by rock fall.
Yeah, I agree with you. Its been well discussed what 18kn force would do to a body, so I am guessing you are correct :)
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slabmaster
Nov 12, 2004, 10:46 PM
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... all that being said...
CONGRATS for (ahem) taking the leap and setting up your anchor alone. Big step really. me mate and I first started by reading Freedom of the Hills at the top of the cliff, then yammering on about the anchor for 1 -2 hours. It's an acquired skill NOT to be rushed. Don't be afraid to ask others at the cliff top to check it over either. I must have done it a dozen times with no negative comments before I stopped asking. Beware the impatience of youth!
I also tended to over protect but it's your life we're talking about. You have to 'feel' comfortable regardless what the facts are. I still tend to over protect the anchor when top roping or leading (assuming time is not an issue... like multi-pitch).
Climb safe... Live long...
~r
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alpnclmbr1
Nov 12, 2004, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think one thing I would conclude is, I would tend to be more careful when climbing on these hangers as they are rated lower than other types. I climbed past one of these that was all bent and it made me unconfortable. now I know why. not be a good hanger for lead bolts 18kn sounds more than adequate for the hanger on a lead bolt. I have a hard time envisioning a hanger getting bent from a lead fall. More likely the damage was caused by rock fall.
Hello.... the manufacturer says not to use that hanger as a lead bolt hanger. So where do you get off saying that it is more then strong enough?
With 18 kn bolts in a worse case scenario you would have a 50/50 chance of dying from the impact force or having the bolt fail before the rope can kill you. (remember: gear has to withstand around 1.6 x the max force felt by the falling climber)
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caughtinside
Nov 12, 2004, 11:25 PM
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Hmm, didn't know it wasn't recommended by the manufacturer. I guess I haven't really thought about it, since the only practical application is at anchors.
And call me crazy, but 18kn seems adequate, considering it's stronger than any trad hardware.
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abalch
Nov 12, 2004, 11:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: quote: those kida down there were with these two teachers who were a diffrent group, but they weree really anoying, the teachers leading the trip were hitting on these 12 year old students of theirs,....... And the problem with that is......... :twisted:
Unless you yourself are that young you must understand that hitting on twelve year old kids is at the very least "improper relations with a minor" and if it goes anything beyond flirting, PEDOPHILIA.
So, cjcalls, maybe it is time for you to change your user name to "small d*ck wonder", or something. If you can find any humor in hitting on kids that young, maybe you should take a good look at yourself and your sick life.
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old_apple_juice
Nov 13, 2004, 2:27 AM
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Hey
I agree with most in that you had a majorly complicated anchor setup, but it worked, dude.
The ability to rig intense anchors is a skill which is necessary at times.
Took me a few tries to get simple/bombproof setups when I started top roping, yeah I'll admit it.
I've been reading through Jon Long's anchor books and I think you should hold onto that creative anchor making method, I'm sure it'll come in handy half way up some multipitch trad climb, when and if you want to do that kind of thing.
From one noob to another, oh yeah.
Andrew
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mattiem
Nov 13, 2004, 7:01 AM
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http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/slidingx.htm
go here, read, learn
if you are too lazy to read it let me summarize
misused sliding x = bad
matt
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coylec
Nov 13, 2004, 7:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: 4. You shouldn't girth hitch slings together. Check out Chris Harmston's post regarding Girth Hitches on Fish Product's Tech Weenie Webbing Strength . He writes that "[g]irth hitching is weaker than using biners to connect the runners." I don't agree with this bit. Yes, you lose strength girth hitching webbing, but not so much that it isn't perfectly adequate for top rope anchors. Overall, I'd say your anchor looks like mine did when I first started building them again. Overly complicated and overly redundant, and taking forEVER to build. You'll get faster and simpler as you gain confidence and understanding. Rob
Rob raises a very good point -- girth hitching the slings is "perfectly adequate." However, you should always keep track of both what you are doing, and how what you are doing affects the strength of the anchor. While the girth hitch, in this situation isn't going to make the anchor bad, it does lower the strength of that portion of your massive anchor.
In a pinch, I'll girth hitch slings, but I'd prefer to use the proper length runner, or barring that, using a locker or two biners to connect the slings. But, if you're in a pinch, go fer it.
coylec
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coylec
Nov 13, 2004, 7:45 AM
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All this talk about the rap rings is ridiculous.
The only reason that people have offered on why you SHOULD clip the ring is that otherwise the edge of the biner will be in contact with the rock. This is comestic scratching -- you're not applying any leverage against the biner. This means no reduction in strength.
Here are some reasons why you shouldn't use the rings:
1. They're not all stainless steel rings. While the stainless steel rings are rated at 50kN, plated steel rings are rated at 35kN, and others are aluminium rings I can't find a rating for, but I'll bet you its less than 22kN (the strength of the hanger).
2. They are significantly weaker than that rating because they have been sanded and filed by abrasion from rope and rope grit.
3. They add an additional link in the anchor chain. Keep it simple and straightfoward: each addition part is another potential failure point.
My way of thinking about is this: you are introducing another compontent which comes out of the shop more than strong enough, but it is an abused component of a bolt, and you don't have to use it, so why introduce that additional component of risk?
coylec
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maculated
Nov 13, 2004, 7:57 AM
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Agreed. The ONLY reason to clip a rap ring is if you can't equalize your anchor in any other way.
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