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iamthewallress
Nov 19, 2004, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: Totally agree about the overblown whining comment. Just get out and do the route. Any motivated climber with a #4 Camelot will find a way through it.
No, please don't!
Come climb the NEB when you're solid leading 5.9 ow, hands, finger, chimney and face at the crags. For some motivated climbers with a #4 camalot who push their balls around in a wheelbarrow this is trivial. For others it takes years of practice. Climbing 5.10 at a place that only has face climbing is not a clear indicator of which camp you'll fit into (in my observation). The crowded routes are plugged enough with competant climbers at the grade. Encouraging anyone and everyone to join in the conga line prepared to aid with their big cams just makes the day less enjoyable for everyone up there.
For me, swinging leads on the NEB was a real personal accomplishment for which I trained pretty hard learning the different techniques. I might have gotten on it sooner if I wouldn't have been encouraged to do some other training routes (including the ones I mentioned in my first post), and I might have summited, but it would have been an epic hang dog extravaganza and no where near as enjoyable.
In reply to: What is the appeal to DNB? I just don't understand. With all the great long, sustained splitter routes in the Valley, why would someone subject themselves to that nebulous face climbing with constant routefinding difficulties capped by the 4 pitch chimney grovel filled with loose blocks?
I guess you summed up the appeal right there. Middle Cathedral is all about nebulous face climbing. How amazing it is that these circuitous natural passages exist on an otherwise blank face! The chimneys are amazing natural features...the obvious natural line up the formation. Loose rock is part of climbing outdoors, especially on the shady side of Yosemite Valley. Climbing safely around them is a skill and one that I've been enjoying learning to do better and more confidently. Every crack route on Middle except the E. Butt. which has been cleaned by the masses, has its share of looseness. (Try the upper pitches of the Kor Beck, for example. Stellar AND loose.) I think that it's great that the DNB has a certain classic status while having a lot of well preserved obscurity-style climbing. If you don't like so much chimney though, try Ho Chi Mihn. It's more sustained. If you don't like chimney or face, I dunno...I guess you can do hand cracks at IC? You have to get pretty picky to find grade IV's in Yosemite that don't have a fair amount of both.
In reply to: Did you actually enjoy this route, or do you enjoy embellishing in the memory of it? Maybe it's some sort of "rite of passage".
I followed it. I loved it. It was definately a rite of passage as it was my first experience with Yosemite wide.
http://www.camp4.com/bigwall.php?newsid=376
I bonked following Ho Chi Mihn (ran out of food and water bottle broke), so I enjoyed it less, but the climbing was still nice, more sustained smaller cracks.
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jcinco
Nov 19, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: What is the appeal to DNB? I just don't understand.
Well, because its a big adventure which links natural features with unlikely face climbing. The lower half of the climb is excellent, but its the upper half that really turns it into an outing. A must-do Valley classic in my book. And the chimneys are actually pretty clean, its just that any rockfall tends to funnel down the chimney system. If you bring knee-pads its actually a lot of fun since none of the chimneys are harder than "Valley 5.7 wide".
Have you actually done the DNB?
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iamthewallress
Nov 19, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #53 of 71
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In reply to: In reply to: What is the appeal to DNB? I just don't understand. Well, because its a big adventure which links natural features with unlikely face climbing.
For this beautiful sentiment, I give you trophy!
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crackmd
Nov 19, 2004, 9:15 PM
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If you don't like so much chimney though, try Ho Chi Mihn. It's more sustained. If you don't like chimney or face, I dunno...I guess you can do hand cracks at IC? You have to get pretty picky to find grade IV's in Yosemite that don't have a fair amount of both.
I love chimneys. Just not low angle, loose 5.7s like the ones on DNB. One of the scariest moments in my climbing career came low on the route when we were showered with rocks being dislodged by a party in the chimneys who had been benighted on route. This was prior to my helmet revellation, so I guess I am fortunate just to be here writing this post. I am not the only one who feels that DNB is a pile. Someone support me on this one.
I am planning to go to Indian Creek in April as a matter of fact, but will also do a bunch of thinhands, fingerstacking, and fingers cracks. May even do some fists and OW if I can scrounge enough pro.
Also going to Potrero Chico in Feb to climb face, so the bottom-line is your musing about me only climbing handcracks is way off and really not appreciated. Maybe you should check ones ascent list prior to generalizing about their climbing style.
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crackmd
Nov 19, 2004, 9:17 PM
Post #55 of 71
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In reply to: In reply to: What is the appeal to DNB? I just don't understand. Well, because its a big adventure which links natural features with unlikely face climbing. The lower half of the climb is excellent, but its the upper half that really turns it into an outing. A must-do Valley classic in my book. And the chimneys are actually pretty clean, its just that any rockfall tends to funnel down the chimney system. If you bring knee-pads its actually a lot of fun since none of the chimneys are harder than "Valley 5.7 wide". Have you actually done the DNB?
Yes
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fredbob
Nov 20, 2004, 12:35 AM
Post #56 of 71
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In reply to: What is the appeal to DNB? I just don't understand. With all the great long, sustained splitter routes in the Valley, why would someone subject themselves to that nebulous face climbing with constant routefinding difficulties capped by the 4 pitch chimney grovel filled with loose blocks? I will take the sustained cracks, thank you.
So crack climbs are the only type of climbing that is any good? Middle Catherdral is chocked full of fantastic routes that follow nebulous face climbing with constant routefinding difficulties. Stoner's Highway and Paradise Lost are good examples.
In reply to: Did you actually enjoy this route, or do you enjoy embellishing in the memory of it? Maybe it's some sort of "rite of passage".
I sure did enjoy the route (each of the several times I did it), though it is probaly better to rap off from the Powell-Reed Ledges.
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asandh
Nov 20, 2004, 5:43 AM
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:D
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micahmcguire
Nov 20, 2004, 2:20 PM
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Mitre Mite, up The Mitre in Eklutna Valley, Chugach Range, Alaska
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pt
Nov 20, 2004, 4:02 PM
Post #59 of 71
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Colorado
The Casual Route - The Diamond
Birds of Fire - Chiefshead
The Barb - Spearhead
Flying Buttress - Mt. Meeker
WY
Exum Ridge - The Grand
Irenes Arete - Disapointment Peak
NE Ridge of Pingora - The Winds
Nevada
Epinephrine
Utah
Touchstone
Space Shot
California - Too many to list and I haven't done most of them anyway!
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numbnut
Nov 20, 2004, 4:46 PM
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Didn't the DNB get somewhat f'ed up by rockfall?
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dharmacase
Nov 21, 2004, 9:09 PM
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If you have the means and the chance.....go to the bugs in canada excellent grade IV in a remote setting......oh yeah and its "Sliding Board" on Whitehorse ledge, not diving board.......And If you can lead 10 solid I would recomend emotional rescue on the enclosure in the tetons the direct variation is free at 10-....but its 10- at 12,000 feet!
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ddriver
Nov 23, 2004, 4:29 PM
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This is a good question, as you can see by the responses. I think that there aren't really as many quality moderate grade IV's in the US as people think there are. Here's my two cents.
A lot of the climbs already mentioned are Grade III's according to conventional wisdom. Now, having said that, you should climb them anyway.
* Most of the routes mentioned in the Cirque of the Towers in the Winds are probably Grade III's: i.e. Pingora and Wolf's Head. Yanqui mentioned the North Face of Mitchell and I would recommend it as a quality Grade IV, though just barely. There is a Grade IV on Warbonnet that looks really good, but it isn't "moderate." I looked for the Beckey route on the Monolith but couldn't find it, would love to go back for that. The Deep Lake area in the Winds has some good long Grade III's. Look at the Minor and Major Dihedrals on Haystack and East Temple Spire. The Winds may be one of the best areas in the country for true Grade IV's if you look around.
* The Golden Dihedrals on Ambush in the Winds is a hidden gem at IV 5.9, but I think you will find that the climbing is not at all "moderate."
* Several Tetons routes were mentioned but again they're mostly Grade III's, i.e. Irene's Arete, the Snaz, and the Direct Exum. I would recommend the Buckingham Ridge on the Middle Teton (IV 5.8) as an excellent long day. Look also at the Serendipity and Intrepidity Aretes on Owen (IV 5.10 and 5.11). I've done Intrepidity and its not continuously difficult, but Serendipity looks better to me. I've attempted the North Ridge of the Grand (IV 5.8) but got weathered off. I will try it again. I would like to do Loki's Tower on the west side of the Grand (IV 5.9). The Grand has a lot of routes that fit your criteria.
* The only Valley route I've done that fits the criteria is the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral and I would recommend it to you as opposed to earlier comments. The lower face is very nice and the finish is just fine.
* Sierra routes like Fairview Dome and Cathedral Peak are Grade III's. White Punks on Dope is a Grade II, though great and maybe under-rated.
I'm not so high on the Red Dihedrals Route on the Incredible Hulk as a "moderate" recommendation when you throw in the approach and descent.
* I'm surprised noone has mentioned the routes on Temple Crag in the Sierras like Sun Ribbon Arete. I haven't done them but they have the reputation of good rock quality and they are certainly long. The Sierras have plenty of big rock and you should look hard there to find Grade IV's. The Minarets have Grade IV's. Conness is supposed to be great. Charlotte Dome is a recommeded Grade IV.
* The Casual Route on the Diamond is a Grade IV 5.10 and not too difficult but beware that if you're not well acclimatized it won't be "moderate."
I don't know about any of the routes on Spearhead being Grade IV's, maybe Obviously 4 Believers. The Flying Buttress on Mt Meeker is usualy done as a Grade III but you can top out as a Grade IV. There are a number of other Grade IV's in the park but most of the well-known routes are Grade III's. Look at Chiefshead or Mt. Alice.
* The Mountaineer's Rt on the Elephant's Perch is rated a Grade IV but that's a joke, its really a Grade III. The routes that are Grade IV's are so because they're not moderate, although someone did mention a route on the right side that probably qualifies. Can't remember the name but it certainly looks good.
* There are a number of great Grade IV's at the Red Rocks. I'm most familiar with those on the Black Velvet Wall. They only qualify as Grade IV if you top out, though. Epenephrine, the Gobbler, Dream of Wild Turkeys are good, especially Epenephrine.
* Its hard to recommend anything in Zion as a moderate route, but the Fang Wall and Iron Messiah come close (IV/V 5.10) and are good. I think there's a new moderate route on Red Mtn in Zion that is IV 5.10 that Brian Smoot did.
* I've been told the NE Buttress on Mt Slesse is good (IV/V 5.9).
* As someone else mentioned, thre are a lot of Grade IV's in southern Canada. The NE Buttress of Bugaboo Spire and Brewer Buttress on Castle Mt are both moderate Grade IV classics. If you want a lot of long routes close together go to Canmore. Mt Temple's East Ridge is recommended as a very long day, Canadian Grade IV.
Those are my ideas, but there really aren't that many that are true moderate Grade IV's.
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sspssp
Nov 23, 2004, 4:44 PM
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I wasn't trying to whine about the NEB. Just give potential climbers a heads up about the route. You can see from the comments that some people would agree. But if you are not used to wide cracks, the NEB is a long ways from the difficulty of something like E Buttress of Middle. If your wide crack skills are decent, or not so decent but you have plently of boldness, sure, go for it (in this case I would strongly recommend taking a couple of good headlamps).
As an aside, the orgininal (far left variation) route of E Buttress of Middle has a couple of pitches of moderate wide/chimny climbing that is good fun/practice for harder routes.
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crackmd
Nov 23, 2004, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: * The only Valley route I've done that fits the criteria is the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral and I would recommend it to you as opposed to earlier comments. The lower face is very nice and the finish is just fine.
It sounds like you are confusing the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral with the Direct North Buttress (DNB) on Middle Cathedral. The route that has been talked about ad nauseum on this thread is the DNB. The East Buttress is much less committing with easier route finding, shorter descent, and fewer pitches. If you make the correct choice at the Fork there will be very little groveling involved for those of you who avoid OW (I think you go right, but I can't remember).
I hate to belabor this subject, but I have been thinking a bunch about why I dislike the DNB so much and all you swear by its quality. I would like to pose this question to all you DNB lovers. Without consulting your guidebook tell me how you enjoyed the 6th pitch. What about the 12 pitch? I bet you cannot tell me anything about either (I sure as hell can't). Ask me the same question about Astroman, Chouinard/Herbert, or the Rostrum and I can describe the corresponding pitches on those routes in vivid detail.
I guess my point is that I spent an entire day climbing to this memorable summit yet there were really very few memorable moments about the climbing itself (other than the 4-pitch grovel at the top). It was definitely an accomplishment to summit and get off without being benighted, and I probably became a better climber because I did it. I just can't remember any awesome pitches.
I will give you guys that DNB is a major accomplishment, difficult for the grade and climbs a beautiful monolith. I guess this is what buys it "classic" status. In a Valley full of multi-pitch classics with awesome splitter pitches stacked one on top of another, there are many routes I would choose before jumping on the DNB. I concede that this reflects my climbing bias revealed by my pseudonym.
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superdiamonddave
Nov 23, 2004, 5:43 PM
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I don't think anyone mentioned any good New Mexico climbs, so here is a couple I've done in The Sandia Mountains:
Procrastination 5.8+, 11 pitches of trad.
The Needle 5.9+, 15 pitches of trad.
Keep in mind that a lot of adventure is just getting to these semi-remote climbs. For low-landers such as myself, the altitude is also somewhat of a challenge but it's not too bad. Also, you will want to check with the rangers before hiking back in there due to certain closures throughout the year ( for nesting falcons I think). Violations can run upwards of $25,000.00.
So if you make it to the Albuquerque area, check this place out. Another classic is Warpy Moople sp?, but I haven't done this route. Good luck and have fun.
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takeme
Nov 23, 2004, 6:01 PM
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In reply to: * The Golden Dihedrals on Ambush in the Winds is a hidden gem at IV 5.9, but I think you will find that the climbing is not at all "moderate."
I'm not sure if you're saying this in response to my post on the first page, but I was speaking of "Gold Dihedrals" IV 5.9 which is on a large unnamed wall in the South Pass area, far south of Ambush Peak. The climbing is mostly pretty moderate--the crux could pass for 10-, but is short. Symbiosis is a better route though. Both are hidden gems.
In reply to: I'm not so high on the Red Dihedrals Route on the Incredible Hulk as a "moderate" recommendation when you throw in the approach and descent.
This is true although you can always bivy and give yourself more time to deal with the route-finding problems of the approach. The climb itself is pretty long. I mentioned the route more because I believe a rating of mid-10 is not really an indication of the actual technical difficulties (they're easier and the crux is short), although there is loads of steep 5.9. Maybe not a route to seek out if 10- is your leading limit.
I noticed that all but one of the routes I recommended is rated 10-, and that one is 5.9. I really can't think of very many Grade IVs under 5.9, let alone classic ones, although there certainly are some. So citing 10s (which plenty of people might consider moderate as far as IVs are concerned), especially easier ones at least makes for a more interesting thread with a lot more routes to talk about.
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yanqui
Nov 23, 2004, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: I looked for the Beckey route on the Monolith but couldn't find it, would love to go back for that. .
From memory:
There is an obvious (and beautiful) line straight up the center of the Monolith. I don't recall too much about this straight-up line, but I think it's listed as 5.9 A2 in the old (almost useless) Joe Kelsey guide. The Beckey line is up and to the right of this, near to the right edge of the Monolith, and approached by hiking up the talus a ways (I have no idea how far). We began on some obvious weaknesses, climbed up and left into steeper terrain with difficulties consistently about 5.8 or 5.9. Near the top, one could probably continue straight up (maybe around 5.10?) but the Beckey route looks to traverse back right, escaping to easier climbing (around 5.6) that leads to the top. Sorry, that's about the best I can do, although I do remember one nice 5.9 pitch in a corner. And we had a lot of fun on the descent.
The reason I put Mitchell first in the list, is because it offers a relatively easy introduction to the grade, without so much of the adventure aspects of the other routes. I didn't want to be a sandbagger. In quality, I wouldn't pick it first at all, but it is a gentle introduction, for someone unfamiliar with the Winds and grade IVs.
On the other three routes, route finding and stressful descents were a big part of the difficulty. Actually, for me, the best (and most difficult) route on the list was the one we did on Sacajawea. I actually think the route in the old Kelsey guide checks in as a (sandbag) grade III. Anyways, the route we did was about 12 pitches long with a consistently higher difficulty than Mitchell, more difficult route finding, longer approach, more remote, more altitude, much colder weather conditions, harder descent, etc. etc. On Mitchell, we were back at the tent about 2 in the afternoon. On Sacajewea, we didn't make it back til midnight. Fun stuff.
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ddriver
Nov 23, 2004, 9:57 PM
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In reply to: ddriver wrote: * The only Valley route I've done that fits the criteria is the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral and I would recommend it to you as opposed to earlier comments. The lower face is very nice and the finish is just fine. It sounds like you are confusing the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral with the Direct North Buttress (DNB) on Middle Cathedral. The route that has been talked about ad nauseum on this thread is the DNB. The East Buttress is much less committing with easier route finding, shorter descent, and fewer pitches. If you make the correct choice at the Fork there will be very little groveling involved for those of you who avoid OW (I think you go right, but I can't remember).
No, I was responding to someone else's earlier comment that the East Butt is dirty higher up and not worth doing. I disagree, especially for the poster from North Carolina. The lower route is great and the setting is also, so I think its well worth doing. I'm familiar with the DNB but have never done it. I have climbed the Central Pillar of Frenzy and Rainbow Bridge on Middle Cathedral, and something else I can't remember the name of, so I'm somewhat famiilar with the area.
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ddriver
Nov 23, 2004, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: ddriver wrote: * The Golden Dihedrals on Ambush in the Winds is a hidden gem at IV 5.9, but I think you will find that the climbing is not at all "moderate." I'm not sure if you're saying this in response to my post on the first page, but I was speaking of "Gold Dihedrals" IV 5.9 which is on a large unnamed wall in the South Pass area, far south of Ambush Peak. The climbing is mostly pretty moderate--the crux could pass for 10-, but is short. Symbiosis is a better route though. Both are hidden gems.
I wasn't responding to you and didn't even notice the connection. I'm not familiar with Symbiosis but if its better than Ambush I'd love to climb it. Thanks for the tip.
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ddriver
Nov 23, 2004, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: The reason I put Mitchell first in the list, is because it offers a relatively easy introduction to the grade, without so much of the adventure aspects of the other routes. I didn't want to be a sandbagger. In quality, I wouldn't pick it first at all, but it is a gentle introduction, for someone unfamiliar with the Winds and grade IVs.
I wasn't bagging on Mitchell at all, that's a great route. What I meant was that it barely qualifies as a Grade IV due to length. I think most of the Cirque routes are borderline Grade IV at best. I climbed the NE route on Pingora in 3 hours and some guides call it a Grade IV, and I'm no speed climber. There's a good route on Warrior I, I think, that's also considered a Grade IV but again its not really that long a route.
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jcinco
Nov 23, 2004, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: I hate to belabor this subject, but I have been thinking a bunch about why I dislike the DNB so much and all you swear by its quality. I would like to pose this question to all you DNB lovers. Without consulting your guidebook tell me how you enjoyed the 6th pitch. What about the 12 pitch? I bet you cannot tell me anything about either (I sure as hell can't). Ask me the same question about Astroman, Chouinard/Herbert, or the Rostrum and I can describe the corresponding pitches on those routes in vivid detail.
Noone is saying that it is Astroman or Rostrum quality. Are all classics supposed to measure up to those two climbs?
And who is going to be able to remember any particular section of an 18 pitch climb being the 5th, 6th, or 7th pitch? There were plenty of memorable sections on the DNB, some quite exciting. I would guess the 6th pitch of the DNB had quite good face climbing, probably traversed a bit, and was a tad runout.
In reply to: I will give you guys that DNB is a major accomplishment, difficult for the grade and climbs a beautiful monolith. I guess this is what buys it "classic" status. In a Valley full of multi-pitch classics with awesome splitter pitches stacked one on top of another, there are many routes I would choose before jumping on the DNB. I concede that this reflects my climbing bias revealed by my pseudonym.
No, it doesn't have splitter cracks, but to me that isn't the "end all" for classic rock climbs. I think "big" and "adventure" count for something as well. For myself, there's also something to be said for slightly scarey face climbing, and the excitement of solving those problems.
:deadhorse:
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