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dingus
Dec 1, 2004, 1:32 AM
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Leave the snow shoes and the trekking poles in the car eh? For a mid winter approach to Whitney?
I don't know fellas, the advice in this thread leaves me the impression that some of you lack familiarity with the terrain in question or the objective and accompanying hazards.
Like snow and lots of it. Some winters maybe you could walk right up the mtneers route and not even get your feet wet.
This doesn't seem to be one of those winters...
DMT
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grigriese
Dec 1, 2004, 1:33 AM
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How much water are you planning on taking? I don't recall that being on your list. Are you planning on taking a water purifier or tablets or just boiling the water 20 minutes and using up your fuel?
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grigriese
Dec 1, 2004, 1:44 AM
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There are a lot of very light to ultralight packs out there that will hold more than 2,400 cubic inches. Osprey's Aether 45 is pretty basic but it weighs less then two pounds and has an internal pad that can be used for a sleeping pad - not super comfy but fits the going light bill. Gregory also makes the Z Pack which is about 3 pounds holds about 3,800 cubic inches, is made with Dyneema so you won''t have to worry about it being delicate and has a really huge exterior "pouch" that is super handy for cramming crap into, plus side access zip and other doo-dads. I have both and love them both!
http://www.gregorypacks.com/prod.php?ID=50
http://www.ospreypacks.com/aether45.html
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sancho
Dec 1, 2004, 2:18 AM
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In reply to: How much water are you planning on taking? I don't recall that being on your list. Are you planning on taking a water purifier or tablets or just boiling the water 20 minutes and using up your fuel?
On this route in the winter you are not likely to find any running water, so he will be melting snow. Also, there is no reason to boil melted snow unless it is yellow snow...
Regarding the 3/4 sleeping pad - man, I hate these things! Either do it in one day or get a good sleeping pad that will insulate you, like the Exped down filled airmattress. After getting this thing, sleeping in the snow has never been better!
Your list seems to have some redundancy on mittens and gloves. Pick a good quality pair of one or the other, with a lightweight pair of gloves for camp type duties, like cooking.
Sounds like you might be fairly new to the winter travel stuff. If so, I would encourage you to err on the side of bringing too much warm stuff rather than not enough.
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paulraphael
Dec 1, 2004, 2:19 AM
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This is general advice that can save your neck:
Light and Fast is always a relative term. It's always possible to go lighter and faster. It's also possible to attempt to go too light and fast for your abilities. The best way to become a light and fast climber (it's a journey, I think, not a destination--we're all learning) is gradually. Go a bit lighter and faster than you did last time, and see what works and what doesn't.
You really don't want to just run with advice from a bunch of guys who might be either 1) couch potatoes who have read Extreme Alpinism for Dummies or 2) actual elite climbers who wrote the book on extreme alpinism and eat titanium pitons with their GU. Neither group can make judgements on your actual ability. There's a very real danger of miscalculating, and ending up going Light and Slow. This can be a disaster.
The light and fast ideal is not magic; it is based not so much on high tech toys or even on leaving everything at home--it's based being willing and able to take on more commitiment. This requires from you better judgement, better fitness, better mountain sense, more willingness (in some cases) to take on risk, and more willingness (a lot of the time) to turn tail and run home.
This is all best learned at YOUR pace, whatever that may be, but it's probably not goin to be all at once, in the winter, on Mount Whitney. Why don't you just shoot for lightER, and fastER, and take it from there?
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dingus
Dec 1, 2004, 2:37 AM
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Niely done paulraphael.
DMT
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gymstud001
Dec 1, 2004, 2:46 AM
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forget the tent and the bivy sac. Buy yourself a bivy tent( or some people call them a bivy shelter). BD lightsabre is a good one. Its a mixture of a bivy and a tent (if you couldn't tell) not alot of room or weight, but its fully covered and has a little head room
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toejam
Dec 1, 2004, 2:57 AM
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I'd agree on keeping the snowshoes and poles on the list. Also I replaced my whisperlight with a pocket rocket in my winter pack. A titanium water pot if all you are doing is melting/boiling makes for a nice weight savings too. For a sleeping pad I carry a 3/4 Thermarest and a 1/4 foam pad handy for situations requiring kneeling/sitting on rocks or snow.
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cryder
Dec 1, 2004, 4:59 AM
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Great post Paulraphael.
I would like to add that so much of the light and fast logic is theory being played out in a very qualitative lab; the ever changing alpine environ. I tend to make gear & food decisions the day-of departure based on 1)Weather 2)Snow / ice conditions 3)How I am feeling and how motivated I am to take on commitment (some days I am simply not in the mood, other days the whole point is to suffer).
When in doubt figure out faster first, lighter second. I have yet to be impressed by a titanium-slung-high-grade-climbing-alpine-hot-shot who can't keep his or her schit to together long enough to get to the climb, climb the climb, and then get home from the climb in at least one piece.
There are no finish lines in climbing.
- n -
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mainline
Dec 1, 2004, 5:09 AM
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If you really want to go fast, dump the snow shoes and get yourself on some AT or touring skis.
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icarus_burned
Dec 1, 2004, 9:39 AM
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In reply to: train hard with heavy weighted pack so you can hump all that gear fast, i can take a 70Lb pack up 1500ft(above 8000MSL) and 4 miles in about 1:30. if im going out for days on end, ill slow it up. And work on getting to know you, ie how much youre going to sweat and heave and wheeze before you decide to go tackle a backcountry adventure, its important to know how you react so you dont sweat, exhaust, and then freeze your wet self to death.....
if im reading that right was that a summit attempt in the himalayas? if so which one?
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dickhurtz
Dec 1, 2004, 2:51 PM
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DOWN FILLED UNDERWEAR! I want to climb with you! :?
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adnix
Dec 1, 2004, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: The light and fast ideal is not magic; it is based not so much on high tech toys or even on leaving everything at home--it's based being willing and able to take on more commitiment.
My list was still a rather safe one for such. Some people skip bivy gear and stove.
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climbrc
Dec 1, 2004, 5:10 PM
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uuhh how about:
Helmet
Headlamp
Batteries
Spoon
Matches and flint striker
topo
A great resource for food and clothing is Mark Twight's book (Extreme Alpinism)..
I've never been to Whitney, but over 3-4 days will that be "climbing" or mostly flat trekking? Above tree line or below? Does 3-4 days include weather window?
Could you ski to the base of the climb.. Ditch the skis until you return? Ski's are faster than snowshoes, don't add much weight, and WAY better than postholing for 4 days!
Cheers..
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sancho
Dec 1, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: Also I replaced my whisperlight with a pocket rocket in my winter pack.
A couple years ago on the route in question, trying to get up the mountaineers route in the winter I also brought my MSR pocket rocket stove. The first day it worked very poorly and the second day I couldn't even get the thing to light. Ever since, I have avoided bringing propane/butane/isobutane type stoves to winter environments. FYI, this problem occured at about 12,000 feet in the winter.
Have any of you actually had luck with these types of stoves in real cold environments?
How about 3/4 length pads on snow? Do you find that you are adequately insulated? I have always been miserable with them!
curious...
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akicebum
Dec 2, 2004, 12:16 AM
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I agree with Paul. It also occured to me that if you need to ask this kind of advice on a website you may want to consider your style. There are three types of climbers that venture into the fast and light style of climbing. The under priviledged who do so out of necessity. The super honed who do so out of lack of necessity, they don't need the excess crap. Then the third and most terrifying and least successful the "I read it in a book idealists."
This is not meant to be an insult. Think about what kind of shape you and your partner are in. Think about your experience level. Then look at you objective and ask yourself why you've chosen the style you have.
Modern gear is all good for the most part. Everyone has their opinions on what is better, but what you have will probably out perform you. This is a harsh realiztion I have gained from my own equipment.
I generally either climb hard and fast in one day (sometimes that day finds itself becoming two) or I carry extra gear and go in for the long haul. The extra food, fuel, and tent may only weigh ten more pounds. The longer you are out the more time you are exposed to weather changes, injuries, and other objective hazards. It never hurts to go prepared.
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sandbag
Dec 2, 2004, 12:29 AM
Post #42 of 55
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In reply to: In reply to: train hard with heavy weighted pack so you can hump all that gear fast, i can take a 70Lb pack up 1500ft(above 8000MSL) and 4 miles in about 1:30. if im going out for days on end, ill slow it up. And work on getting to know you, ie how much youre going to sweat and heave and wheeze before you decide to go tackle a backcountry adventure, its important to know how you react so you dont sweat, exhaust, and then freeze your wet self to death..... if im reading that right was that a summit attempt in the himalayas? if so which one?
Naye mate, 8000MSL is 8000 feet above Mean Sea Level, im not wealthy enough nor crazy enough yet to go up a big mountain, but im working on that.
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kid
Dec 2, 2004, 1:18 AM
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Fast and light will focus on the single push as stated above. Good weather and knowledge of the route. The equipment listed tells me expedition style. If you are looking for fast and light skip the tent and the bivy. Your bag is going to get soaked with a tent or a bivy any way. I suggest you have a goretex bag and a vapor barrior liner. Keep pushing and moving untill you need to rest. When that occures dig a pit or create a simple shelter. The faster you move the less food, fuel and water you will need. I tend toward a bigger pack so it can double as a bivy if it gets really hectic. Cover the lower body. In the past I have substituted the sleeping bag for my belay jacket and a change of cloths for the lower body, along with a vapor barrier liner in place of the bivy. The sleeping pad can be replaced by your double ropes if a technical route is taken or your pack if not using it for a bivy. Fuel is very important don't under estimate fuel. I too made that mistake and ended up eating dry oatmeal on one trip. Water will help relieve hypohermia and altitude issues. I would choose the fuel for a warm drink and warm food over a sleeping bag and pad. Inside is warm and the outside is warm. Good luck - I hope this helps. I understand that this is not for everyone - More room for technical gear I always say. ~ Greg F. (Kid)
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megableem
Dec 2, 2004, 2:21 AM
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dingus
Dec 2, 2004, 3:20 AM
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In reply to: I've never been to Whitney, but over 3-4 days will that be "climbing" or mostly flat trekking? Above tree line or below?
Don't know the route. Don't know the approach.
But more than willing to recommend gear.
Where the fuck is Lord Slime when you need him most???
DMT
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sandbag
Dec 2, 2004, 8:33 AM
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YOu might also consider having a second pack, hombase i call mine, its big enough to bivy in as a 3/4 bag, and my alpin rig fits entirely inside it, so its got the full expedition gear, and the quick and light alpine transformer attachment. again, being in great shape and tuned in to you is hte best thing youre going to have as an asset.
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adnix
Dec 2, 2004, 11:30 AM
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In reply to: Fuel is very important don't under estimate fuel. I too made that mistake and ended up eating dry oatmeal on one trip. Water will help relieve hypohermia and altitude issues. I would choose the fuel for a warm drink and warm food over a sleeping bag and pad. Inside is warm and the outside is warm.
Description of the route:
http://www.mounteverest.net/...irectAug182003.shtml
This is probably best style Everest has been done ever. On your own up there and a route with great commitment. Climbing during night when avalanche danger is smaller, resting in the sun when you don't freeze to death and a fast descent by bum sliding back to base camp. They should have gotten more credit for the deed.
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punk
Dec 2, 2004, 1:19 PM
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"Fast and light"
just go solo and run all the way no need for extra clothing, food, fuel, bivi gear ,etc. Just go!!-- The idea behind light is minimal to non-gear. The idea behind fast is run don’t walk till you ready to pass-out from the pace and then push yourself some more. the record on Rainier for “Fast and light” is 5:05 Hours round trip from Paradise ya see he didn’t need to take anything with him.
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sancho
Dec 2, 2004, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: A couple years ago on the route in question, trying to get up the mountaineers route in the winter I also brought my MSR pocket rocket stove. The first day it worked very poorly and the second day I couldn't even get the thing to light. Ever since, I have avoided bringing propane/butane/isobutane type stoves to winter environments. FYI, this problem occured at about 12,000 feet in the winter. Have any of you actually had luck with these types of stoves in real cold environments? In real cold? No. But I did use one just below the summit of Whitney one January without any problem. It was relatively warm that night (10F?), but you can coax these stoves to life in colder conditions once you know a few tricks. I think they're the best choice for a lightweight Sierra winter trip.
Still curious...what were the "tricks" that you used to keep a pocket rocket working at 10'? I have had nothing but trouble with mine when snow camping...
And FYI, the whitney mountaineers route is nearly all trecking - heading up a rudimentary trail (or snow, in this case), starting at a bit over 8,000' and ending and almost 14,500 after climbing up a moderate 1,500' coulior that is super fun to glissade down. I think it is something like six miles, one way. I suppose you could call the coulior and the area after the notch "climbing" but it isn't technical. Anyway, it is a great training route and lots of fun.
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cryder
Dec 2, 2004, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: And FYI, the whitney mountaineers route is nearly all trecking...
If its a slog, I would just go single push. Skip the camps and go fast n light (Unless the camps are part of the fun). For example, most people in our neck of the woods consider Granite Peak a major undertaking in winter, and allow a full five days to climb. Ptthhhhbbbb. I know from experience that the whole thing can be done in less then 30 hours in winter... just skip all the crap and put the hammer down.
Chop chop.
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