|
mountaineeringranger
Nov 29, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #1 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 5
|
I am thinking about buying some ice tools and I seem to find the best deals on certain tools, such as a specific tool for cheap, but only the hammer version. Does it work to climb vertical ice with two completely different tools or is it much better to have a pair that match? thanx in advance.
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
Nov 29, 2004, 7:47 PM
Post #2 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
It doesn't say anywhere that your tools have to match. Some tools have a removable hammer/adze, so just buy two hammers and replace one with an adze. But that sounds like it could make any savings from buying sale tools evaporate. Then again, I hardly ever use the adze on waterfall ice and could prolly [sic] do without it. For mountaineering you might need it though.
|
|
|
|
|
gonzo
Nov 29, 2004, 8:36 PM
Post #3 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 36
|
I've only done ice climbing twice. But on waterfall ice I keep the adze on my left hand as I find I hardly use it and I have it there just in case. The hammer is by far more usefull on steep ice so I keep it on my right hand.
Are you considering using two different types of axes all together ? It might not be such a bad idea, since your one hand is naturally weaker then the other playing around with axes of different weights and swing actions you might be able to optimize the axe for each hand. Anyway just my 2c.
|
|
|
|
|
gunked
Nov 29, 2004, 8:39 PM
Post #4 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2002
Posts: 615
|
My first two tools were completely different. Get what you can and have fun with them. It really is that simple! :D
-Jason
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Nov 30, 2004, 5:16 PM
Post #5 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
It is nicer to climb with matching tools. It also happens to be nicer to climb technical ice with two hammers.
Think about how much you will be using an adze. If you are interested in vertical ice or mixed, it's nice to stare at something less dangerous in case one of your tools pops.
I've never needed an adze to date.
|
|
|
|
|
alpinerockfiend
Dec 1, 2004, 7:50 PM
Post #6 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 598
|
I climb with an HB Spitfire in my right hand and a Black Diamond Rage in my left. This setup has its advantages and its disadvantages, but it's no better or worse that any other. Remember the old adage "It's not the tools, it's the worker" or something along those lines....
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Dec 1, 2004, 7:59 PM
Post #7 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
don't use an adze? With most pro these days being screw-in and assuming we're talking pure ice climbing here, why would you want 2 hammers? They are really useless for waterfall ice, the adze is far superior for gardening ice and for cauliflower. The adze will really reduce the beating your picks take when it comes to cleaning ice,. To the original dude though, use whatever tools you can get as long as they are close to the same height, are both either straight shaft or bent, and weight .
Get a hammer and an adze.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Dec 1, 2004, 8:23 PM
Post #8 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: don't use an adze? With most pro these days being screw-in and assuming we're talking pure ice climbing here, why would you want 2 hammers?
Overall I don't really use the hammers that much either. I just prefer to stare at a hammer than a serated adze.
I clean ice with my picks, I find it more efficient. I have whacked stuff to break it off with the hammer end.
The only real benefit to an adze, in my opinion, is chopping steps, creating ice bollards, sticking into some frozen munge, or topping out in mud. When's the last time you did any of that?
To each his own, but that's my 2 cents.
Oh if it becomes an issue, you can always by the adze later...
|
|
|
|
|
method
Dec 1, 2004, 8:36 PM
Post #9 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 5, 2004
Posts: 5
|
when climbing sustained verticle, or any ice for that matter i just about always have an adze on a tool. if your dealing with aerated, crustyor any other type of less then ideal ice, which you'd like to protect, i find it quite nice to be able to take a swing or two with the adze to clear away all the shite inorder to get to the good stuff.
at the same time though, i see plenty of climbers with two hammers and they seem to get by fine.
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Dec 1, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #10 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
I'm not saying you have to have an adze, i've climbed with people who only use snargs/pound in's and they do just fine. I've seen people climb with hard shell ski boots, alpine poons and long straight axes, levis, $2.00 cotton gloves,etc...... Howerve, I don't believe you can convince me that it is more efficient to clean ice with a pick. Otherwise, you'd be making ice bollards and chopping steps with your picks as well, right? I'd rather keep my picks as solid as possible and not use them for something that another tool will do better.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Dec 1, 2004, 9:42 PM
Post #11 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
My 2 BD tools are both hammers. My 3rd is a DMM with an adze. I was told when starting out that the adze causes lots of injuries. The shop only sold hammered tools but sold the adze separate for those who had to have one.
Do they cause lots of injuries???
|
|
|
|
|
euroford
Dec 1, 2004, 10:09 PM
Post #12 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 2913
|
LOL. nobody in the normal (non ice climbing) world would ever think that a group of poeple would speak so lightly about getting smacked in the face with a hammer, thinking mearly "well, at least it wasn't an adze!"
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Dec 1, 2004, 11:12 PM
Post #13 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: Howerve, I don't believe you can convince me that it is more efficient to clean ice with a pick. Otherwise, you'd be making ice bollards and chopping steps with your picks as well, right? I'd rather keep my picks as solid as possible and not use them for something that another tool will do better.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you've already formed your own opinion. However, I'm offering a different perspective. I see an adze as a tool for hacking out large chuncks of solid ice (which takes a hefty swing by the way). I tend not to hack away at solid ice. However, if we are talking about chipping off some surface crap, I'll use my pick any day. A couple of angled light swings and i'm usually good to go. It takes some touch, but I seem to manage. We all have our own preferences based on our own experience.
It is fairly rare for picks to break these days (outside of torquing/ twisting). It used to be much more common, improvement in materials, manufacturing and all.
You bet that I would take a hammer to the face over an adze any day. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Dec 1, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #14 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: Do they cause lots of injuries???
I dunno, but if you do much dry tooling, getting into funky positions, pushing your limits, etc. 2 hammers, or better yet nothing at all, is the way to go. The problem with pulling on micro edges on rock is the lack of feel, or the rock blowing (mixed areas often involve crappy rock).
Certainly don't have to believe me, look at what the high end climbers are doing.
Also, if you are just starting out on ice, do yourself a favor and keep your face away from the end of your tools, hammer or otherwise. At least until you've learned to judge your placements well.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Dec 3, 2004, 2:19 AM
Post #15 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
I'd choose two hammers so if you want, you can pound one of your tools in by wailing the hammers together. I'd find this usefull for taking a rest on lower angle stuff, don't need to set a screw, just hammer a pick in.
Can't do that with an Adze can you?
The tool popping and hitting my face freaks me out too.
I'd say, unless your ice climbing includes peaks...get two hammers.
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
photon
Dec 3, 2004, 4:00 PM
Post #16 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 31, 2002
Posts: 543
|
I'll change my systems if I see a good reason to do so, that is where the convincing part came in. Give me a good reason and I'll adapt, so far I don't see any good reasons to lose the adze. The only reason I can see a benefit of using 2 hammers would be if I was drytooling, which imo is pointless. I like to rock climb when it's warm and use my hands to do so, like to climb ice when I go iceclimbing go figure.
I've never hit myself in the face with one of my tools, this really doesn't support the argument for using 2 hammers. I've also never needed to pound tools in with other tools, for any reason, get stronger and learn how to swing your tool maybe. If a longish rest is needed, which on low angle ice is rarely the case, I look for resting spots that usually already exist, if the poons can't clear out a good enough spot which they usually can, take my adze and with a few wacks walla -->step. An adze clears any amount of ice faster than a pick, faster is better, from the sounds of it a lot of you must climb on wacked out ice a lot and don't do much glissading either. Most of the WI I"ve done has been in a more alpine environment that hasn't had 4 parties climb the route before I did that day. Cleaning ice is an issue on most every climb and having a more efficient tool for this makes things easier. I'm not saying I use my adze for every bit of ice gardening, more like 40% probably. But when I need it, I certainly don't want to be looking at 2 hammers.
|
|
|
|
|
adamd
Dec 3, 2004, 4:24 PM
Post #17 of 17
(1982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 62
|
I climb with 2 hammers, and it seems like 80% of the folks I see out in the winter are doing the same (granted most of this isn't alpine.) I have a modular adze to throw on for alpine stuff, but generally don't bother with it....I've never had a problem clearing shite ice with just the pick. My main reason for not using the adze (even when it's on there) is that the swing just feels awkward with the curve of the tool in the wrong direction. I wouldn't even think of climbing something mixed with an adze waiting to slice my face.
|
|
|
|
|
|
