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wallhammer
Jun 10, 2002, 3:34 PM
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This is not a rag or a bitch, just something to think about when you are on that long belay. Black Diamond sells an auto locks carabiner that is somewhat complicated to manufacture. It involves forging aluminum, machining surfaces, pressing steel pins in the gate, knurling and machining the twistlock, anodizing the twist lock and assembly, testing for strength to get certification, not to mention packaging. Retail price $10.95 (note, this is not the wholesale price that BD sells to retailers for which is less, but they still make a profit at that price.) Now check out a lost arrow piton. It is a rough steel cast that has been made out of the same mold for hundreds of years (slight exaggeration) it involves nothing to make but a quick forge and deburring. Cost? $13.50 retail. I am sure you can find other examples, like how can a climbing shoe (slipper) cost $140.00? Looking forward to your comments.
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jmlangford
Jun 10, 2002, 4:04 PM
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How can a Petzl Tibloc cost $20? Handy piece of equipment, but there isn't anything too it. The shoes thing has confused me for years-there isn't that much involved in manufacturing them after the original mold is produced. Why so darn expensive?
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feelio
Jun 10, 2002, 4:23 PM
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Your forgetting the most important expense.......MARKETTING!!! and it seems to be working!!!
yeah, it's gotta make you wonder. I spent the same on a pair of offroad motorcycle boots, that I did on a pair of climbing shoes...when you put them side by side, you can't help but feel that climbers are suckers for what we pay for our gear.
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pir8penguin
Jun 10, 2002, 5:00 PM
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Yeah, I must say I've wondered if we're really paying too much, but a lot of money goes into research and developement, and well as marketing and even construction. it's not like this stuff is just thrown together.
you also have to wonder if all the safety certifications and such cost the company a great deal of money...that cost has to go somewhere.
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elvislegs
Jun 10, 2002, 5:04 PM
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The point is that we pay. Supply and demand and all that you know! If climbers wouldn't spend $140.00 on shoes then manufacturers. retailers and the like would not be able to charge that. But we do, whether it's because we are so used to paying alot for pro, ropes, etc. or because we just don't think about it being such a simple piece of gear. Personally, I can usually find a good deal on used or discount gear if I look hard enough. It's really up to us what we pay. The piton thing is way out there though. Good question. Maybe the autolocking biner is their 'loss leader'. You know . . .'they come for the autolocks, but they stay for the zlippers'
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tristero
Jun 10, 2002, 5:18 PM
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the reason they're "so expensive"
because we will pay $140 for shoes, $20 for a Tibloc and $15 for an ATC. They just sell it for what we'll pay. It's that simple....
Markeing budgets and Manufacturing costs will be dictated by revenue. If we didn't pay $130 for Anasazis, they wouldn't have an inside cover ad in Rock and Ice.
It's all good though. We are climbing, enjoying life, and if it all starts to get too expensive.....just boulder, barefoot.
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hornj
Jun 12, 2002, 1:25 AM
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One thing that can drive the cost up for an item that doesn't seem like it should is the size of the market. If there are only a million climbers worldwide the market isn't big enough to invest in faster manufacturing machines. If there was a 100 million market the price would be cheaper. Take a look at how complex a cell phone is yet it is cheap because of the huge market. This is just a point to consider because I know there could be companies out there that are charging a lot more for products than it costs them to make.
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hangdoggypound
Jun 12, 2002, 1:29 AM
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Every bix has to keep the lights on...plus they want to make money, and a lot of it. I'm in sales and I know that if people knew what I paid for my product and what I sell it for, I'd be called some nasty names.
Despite having standard market values on my products, along with nice mark-ups, I still can't seem to have enough money for all the gear I'd like. If I decided to road trip tomorrow, I'd be broke by friday. Even if I lived on $5 a day including gas.
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apollodorus
Jun 12, 2002, 1:39 AM
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Lost Arrows are forged in Italy, so there is some import duty involved. Also, they are heat treated after forging, another cost. The number made is pretty small, compared to biners, which also adds to the cost to make them. Biners are also heat treated after forming them, but it is much less critical (basically, they are baked in an oven and allowed to air cool).
As far as shoes go, the more craftsmanship and care that goes into them, the higher the price. You can buy $75 approach shoes, or get $375 Scarpa Freneys that fit like a glove and hold up to death march approaches and descents. If you can find inexpensive shoes that fit well and don't blister your feet, you are lucky.
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jmlangford
Jun 12, 2002, 2:40 AM
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Hey Tom...I just noticed...Where is San Luis ObiPso? I got lucky in the cheap approach shoe dept. Got a $19 pair of cheapos from Target for the ascent of a 14er and my brother got some outrageously expensive boots. (I didn't have time to shop-spur of the moment trip). My feet were fine and his were covered with blisters. 14 mile round trip.
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wallhammer
Jun 12, 2002, 3:03 AM
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Registered: Oct 26, 2001
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grivels equilent to the lost arrow sells for a third of the price and is also made in italy. still saying hmmm.
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tigerseye
Jun 12, 2002, 10:06 PM
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I say we climbers get together and start a company "the i'm broke and my parents wont pay climbign co." How bout it we can use "actually affordable climbing stuff" as our marketing slogan...ARE you with me
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jansuw
Jun 13, 2002, 4:51 AM
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Registered: May 24, 2002
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HAHA! That would work? I doubt it
Someone already gave us the reason the gear cost more. The more you manufacture the cheaper they are. Carabiners aren't what companies use to pull in the money, they're just an essential to use most gear out there.
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