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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 4:26 AM
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In reply to: As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on "mock leading" (which is *exactly* what you're talking about, even if dirt doesn't like to call it that). I don't believe it helps, but I'm also not yet sure it hurts. GO
Call it mock leading if you want, but what I was suggesting is is not mock leading, but more safe falling on gear and testing gear placments.
I give up on that stegosaurus healyj, he'll never get what I was talkling about.
In mock leading I don't think the goal would be to fall on a lot of your pro and see if it held, which is what I was suggesting in that ohter thread.
My thoughts were more in tune with falling practice, another idea that I am sure galls many people.
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melodicllama
Jan 3, 2005, 4:33 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: so we were supposed to assume "ive never done it" means "i dont know what it is"? thanks for making that perfectly clear, then calmly explaining when we didnt understand. :roll: What are you drunk? My original post WAS "i don't know what it means". So thanks for making an ass out of yourself
oh really? well isnt it convenient that you deleted your original post. as for making an ass of myself...im obviously nothing compared to the master...
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healyje
Jan 3, 2005, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: I give up on that stegosaurus healyj, he'll never get what I was talkling about.
Jesus, dirtineye, get over it - there is nothing complicated, complex, or remotely difficult, either technically, conceptually, or in implementation relative to your point - again, I simply totally disagree with it as stated clearly about 3 times now.
I don't know what your background and experience are, but again, in my experience of seeing many, many folks become leaders every episode of mock leading/falling has been to the absolute detriment of the student's development as a competent leader, without exception.
In contrast, the folks taught by the progression of walking around placing gear with an aider; seconding a variety of leaders; and then a combination of leading themselves while still seconding progressively more talented leaders on increasingly difficult routes simply progress faster and become competent and self confident sooner. Period.
All your [commercial] short cuts simply forestall an individual coming to terms with the reality of leading, taking full responsibility for themselves, and developing the self-confidence and courage necessary to lead competently.
Again, there is no rocket science involved - the last time I checked it still just involved a rope, harness, and pro. No commercial organization has the corner on any of this. If anything they are grossly handicapped by common sense business requirements that dictate appropriate risk management tactics be employed.
Those risk management tactics are the ones you suggest are somehow "newer" and "safer". They are that - they just aren't better, in fact, they work against a person attempting to develop lead skills. Again, they are designed to protect the teachers, not the taught.
And, hey, it must have just been dumb luck that for decades we managed to teach generation after generation of leaders who put up and endless number of hard routes before anyone thought to start taking cash to put people on mock leads, how incredible.
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veritasmmv
Jan 3, 2005, 4:44 AM
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In reply to: oh really? well isnt it convenient that you deleted your original post. as for making an ass of myself...im obviously nothing compared to the master...
Again, what are you drunk? My original post is still right where I left it, it's the second post of the thread... obviously there's a new master
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 4:45 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Call it what you will - mock leading, leading on TR, taking practice falls with a TR backup - what's your experience with it? Does mock leading help more or hurt more? Neither. It does, essentially, nothing. In reply to: Is it just a crutch created by guides for insurance purposes, or is it a valuable tool to ease the process of becoming a true leader? The former. I wonder how many certified guides learned to lead by mock leading. In reply to: Wave of the future, or temporary fad? Again, neither. Commercial guides have been doing this for years, and will continue to do so to because that's all their insurance carriers will allow. Anyone can learn to place gear on the ground. The crux of learning to lead is keeping your cool while climbing above your gear and taking responsibility for yourself and your partner. Placing gear on toprope does nothing wrt these skills. Teach gear placements on the ground and then have your aspiring leaders lead extremely easy pitches while placing their own gear. -Jay |
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 5:02 AM
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In reply to: Blah blah blah........ ...................................blah blah blah
Your stupid comments don't deserve or require any rebuttal, especially since you will just get it wrong AGAIN. You seriously missed the point over and over, and after reading some of your other responses in other posts, I see this is a habit of yours.
Education degree? it figures.
Your inability to comprehend what others have written should be embarrassing, but teacher, you just go right on.
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 5:13 AM
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The topic is an important and interesting one. Is it possible to discuss it without the all the flaming?
Perhaps RC.com should set up a "outside" forum where posters could take their attituces and issues--as in "take it outside."
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xcit
Jan 3, 2005, 5:24 AM
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Yes, I would agree this is a good idea for someone wanting to learn trad leading in a safe manner.
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healyje
Jan 3, 2005, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: [Your stupid comments don't deserve or require any rebuttal, especially since you will just get it wrong AGAIN. You seriously missed the point over and over, and after reading some of your other responses in other posts, I see this is a habit of yours.
Again, your background and experience for all this relentless and deeply insightful noise and posing is what?
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davidji
Jan 3, 2005, 5:41 AM
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In reply to: oh really? well isnt it convenient that you deleted your original post. |
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onsight_endorphines
Jan 3, 2005, 6:03 AM
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healyje wrote:
In reply to: In contrast, the folks taught by the progression of walking around placing gear with an aider; seconding a variety of leaders; and then a combination of leading themselves while still seconding progressively more talented leaders on increasingly difficult routes simply progress faster and become competent and self confident sooner. Period. All your [commercial] short cuts simply forestall an individual coming to terms with the reality of leading, taking full responsibility for themselves, and developing the self-confidence and courage necessary to lead competently.
Makes sense to me. Well spoken.
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dingus
Jan 3, 2005, 6:12 AM
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In reply to: The topic is an important and interesting one.
Correction: It is not important at all and it is only mildly interesting the first 10 times you read one of these mock leading debates.
DMT
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: healyje wrote: In reply to: In contrast, the folks taught by the progression of walking around placing gear with an aider; seconding a variety of leaders; and then a combination of leading themselves while still seconding progressively more talented leaders on increasingly difficult routes simply progress faster and become competent and self confident sooner. Period. All your [commercial] short cuts simply forestall an individual coming to terms with the reality of leading, taking full responsibility for themselves, and developing the self-confidence and courage necessary to lead competently. Makes sense to me. Well spoken. |
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johnnord
Jan 3, 2005, 6:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The topic is an important and interesting one. Correction: It is not important at all and it is only mildly interesting the first 10 times you read one of these mock leading debates. DMT |
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ryan112ryan
Jan 3, 2005, 7:57 AM
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from a newbie perspective, if its worth anything, but ill still put my 2 cents in, as ive been considering "mock leading". when climbing you take steps to minimize risks, climbing has a rather sharp learning curve (when you do things the wrong way), i would think that having that TR would let you focus on the placement, clipping and not the whole thing at once, in effect the method allows you to build up to eventually leading on your own. plus the intermediate step simply adds more experience, which can't hurt, especially when it is somewhat similar, how ever remote, to real leading.
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 4:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: [Your stupid comments don't deserve or require any rebuttal, especially since you will just get it wrong AGAIN. You seriously missed the point over and over, and after reading some of your other responses in other posts, I see this is a habit of yours. Again, your background and experience for all this relentless and deeply insightful noise and posing is what?
Go find the rant about lead head wherever I put it. that's all you'll get from me, I'm not listing routes FAs climbing partners or any other breast beating crap, except for that one route I did mention, which you will never see.
Suffice it to say that I have climbed with and earned the respect of poeple you have read about for years.
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atpeaceinbozeman
Jan 3, 2005, 5:27 PM
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I say mock leading does not help. Find a trad mentor, follow him/her on many climbs, and learn good placements. Then sac up and lead some stuff, then have your mentor follow you. :deadhorse:
Tom
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bostonclimbah
Jan 3, 2005, 6:15 PM
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Hmmm... Gabe, I find this topic particularly interesting coming from you because you and I share a little background in so far as the school(s) where we learned to lead. In fact, MC considers you to be a shining example of his better work and readily threw you in my face after sketching on Thin Air (yes Thin Air and NO I'm not ashamed).
As you already know, at least 2 of the "larger" schools near us will never let you out on the sharp end while our "Alma Martyr" sort of forces you right out there on day 1. Compare the size of the 3 schools and it might answer part of the question.
Aside from the Insurance issue, I think the answer is "it depends" on the individual and the quality of the instructor. Some people internalize things differently than others and therefore require the analytical opportunity afforded by Mock Leading. However, in MY opinion, it's TOTALLY useless without a mentor who can competently coach someone through the entire process (i.e. route finding, likely stances for placing gear, and judgement, judgement, judgement). Hell, I can teach someone how to place gear but it ain't gonna keep their ass off the ground if things get ugly (I believe you quoted a Seal song during such one such experience that you shared).
Mock leading is something I've considered to help me break into harder grades but I'm too damn lazy to really push myself anyway.
But enough about me....
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quickclips
Jan 3, 2005, 6:24 PM
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I have used mock leading when I'm trying to push my leading abilities. Personally I find that it builds confidence in placements underpressure and allows for pieces to be reviewed. I used it a lot when I was learning trad. But I also think that is important to get on the sharp end and learn on easy stuff. However in WI easy stuff means a lot fo ledges.
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pjcozzi
Jan 3, 2005, 6:50 PM
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Mock leading, following, placing gear on the ground, etc are all great learning tools. You could surely learn trad without mock leading but it would be like learning how to ride a bike without training wheels just because you’re use to sitting on the handle bars when someone else pedals.
Mock leading teaches good judgment. Should you place this piece here or save it for later? Should you run it out? Did you place too much gear already and now you have to run it out? You could learn all this by leading 5.2 but the TR adds the extra safety. It allows you to work on the physical aspects of trad so you’ll have more confidence and knowledge when you’re really on the sharp end.
Patrick
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dingus
Jan 3, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to: Mock leading teaches good judgment. Should you place this piece here or save it for later? Should you run it out?
I am unclear on the concept of a run out as it pertains to mock leading. Perhaps you can explain how this is possible. Is it like a 'redpoint' on TR (LOL!).
I mean, if there ARE runnouts, it isn't MOCK... is it?
DMT
ps. OK, I admit it, I was making fun of your word selection. I know what you meant brough!
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: Gabe... I have never done what you said as of yet. However, I have placed gear on rapel and then climbing the route like a sport route. Perhaps when I find a climb that has decent gear placements AND a high potetial that I will fall, I will mock lead it first. Do you know of any good trad climbs in the .7-.8 range that accept gear easily in the Boston area? I supose that if I were to mock lead anything now, it would probably be Outside corner at QQ. Wanna gimme a belay? Later, Jason
Sure, I'll belay you.
Offhand, I can't think of any G rated climbs in the 5.7-5.8 range in the Boston area. The best 7s and 8s I can think of (Tarzan at Crow Hill, Outside Corner at QQ) are PG at best.
GO
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olderic
Jan 3, 2005, 7:37 PM
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Hi Gabe,
I guess my take on this sort of thing has mellowed some over the last 30 years. Back when i was feeling my oats (mid 70's)I would have said it was kind of silly - you're either doing it or you are not. Stupid to try and sugar coat it - it's more of a mental skill that is needed then a physical one. Of course we didn't have those springy things to contend with (although we still occassionally used those bangy things). You should follow/clean a bunch and practice placing on the ground - but then suck it up and go on something well within your abilities
But then flash forward 25 years and I am trying to teach Zeb how to lead trad - clearly in this case I will go to any extremes to keep him safe but I still wanted him to get the sharp end feel. So I went to places where I could really lace a crack up - Hammond Pond, some stuff at Crow - and had him "lead" a crack with a preplaced piece every foot to clip. Then repeat but remove and replace every piece - finally take out every other piece - order them in sequence on the rack - and go up and fill in the gaps as you lead. I don't know if this was any more effective then mocks on a TR but I enjoyed it and the results were good.
Flash forward another 3 years and Zeb is gunning for the first trad lead of Thank You Scott at the Quarries. It's obvious that which hand you place with, clip with and from what body postions is going to be crucial. So Zeb mocked that on TR first. Back then he was still willing to do that - I think now he is confident enough so that he would just go for it.
So like about 90% of the questions on these forums the only valid answer is "it depends"
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: Never tried it; always thought it would be too much of a hassle. My opinion is that learning to lead (sport or trad) can best be done merely by spending lots of time leading absurdly easy routes (5.4-5.6). That's how I learned. Not saying this is for certain THE best way, just worked great for me and my friends.
That's how people have always learned (myself included). It works.
But more and more people seem to be saying that mock-leading is a "better way".
I'm not convinced. And so far, the best anyone can come up with is that it's good for getting hard leads wired before really leading them. As such, that's simply a form of headpointing, which is fine, if you're into that sort of thing.
But as a learning tool for aspiring leaders? Let me ask this - are any of you experienced, competent leaders who first learned to mock lead?
In my experience, I know lots of people who learned how to mock lead in preparation to becoming leaders, and I know lots of real leaders. But I don't know any mock-leaders who became real leaders.
My theory is that the mock-leader believes they "should" be able to lead 5.X. That's why they're doing the mock leading in the first place - of course they could solo 5.0 if they wanted, but what fun is that (or so they think)? But when they try to move from mock to real, they discover that they're not really prepared. it's not what they think. They get injured, or they get scared, or they move on to something else. The truth eludes them. The truth is that trad leading is a whole different animal, and if climbing four numbers below your TR limit is beneath you, then you may never become a competent leader.
Mock-leading is a shortcut that doesn't take you where you think it does.
GO
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