That's fine and dandy, but perhaps we should also educate the route setters to STOP HANGING THE SHUTS AT 45 DEGREES TOWARD EACH OTHER. So many people see the shuts hung this way in the gym where we are MEANT to TR from them that when they hang them outside, they do it without thinking. When TRing from the anchors, the forces on the shuts work out such that 45 degrees is the optimal angle at which to mount them. However, if you expect us to hang draws and TR from the draws, then shuts hung at 45 degrees experience forces that they were not meant to withstand. Furthermore, if the shuts do hold up, the forces put on them by constant TRing from the draws will have a tendency to torque the shuts back to something closer to vertical. That certainly can't be good for the bolt holding the cold shut to the rock.

I'm all for preserving the fixed anchors by TRing off of your own gear, but when the shuts are hung improperly, it means that no matter which TR method you choose, you're likely to damage them over time.

Don't lower off them either - RAP!

I agree. Rapping from sport climbs is dumb

Unless you're one of those 'serious' trad dudes who sport climbs with shoulder length runners, prussiks and a nut tool.

Or, if you're doing a lot of toproping make draws with lockers, so you're super safe, or use webbing. There's lots of options.


Thanks!

lower off of a sport climb...? There are situations where either is acceptable, and situations where one is a slightly better option than the other.

When you lower off a route the safety is in the hands of the belayer who is many feet below you.

And it *is* possible to clean an overhanging route on rappel.

Maybe a slightly overhanging route, but we're not talking about your overhanging 5.10 jug haul. Try cleaning Fear and Loathing in Vegas, anything hard on the Minimum wall in Maple or most super-overhanging 5.12 or harder routes on rappel. It's just flat out dangerous, if not impossible. Many times it's necessary to keep the rope clipped to the first bolt and stay clipped to the rope leading through that draw and lower to the ground. Then you have to use a stick-clip to get the first draw. I'd love to see you clean something like that on rappel!

whats wrong with rapping off?

Unless your a bumbling idiot rapping should be no more risky than having to retie in and being lowered.

omg, really? you mean gear left outside for public use wears out over time?

my vote for anchors:
http://www.aspenclimbingguides.com/images/anchor.jpg

http://climbaz.com/...graphics/rapring.jpg
This is what top roping and lowering off can do to rap rings.

Would you want to rap off of this? Anchors don't last for ever, and top-roping/ lowering speeds up their wear exponentially.

Somebody already blew a C note on the bolts, you can afford $7 to not contribute to their destruction.

"That's a rolled aluminum rap ring, not something you would ever find as part of fixed hardware,"

Climb much? They're all over the place.

http://climbaz.com/...graphics/rapring.jpg
This is what top roping and lowering off can do to rap rings.

and since the most important thing is to reduce confusion and make sure everyone knows exactly what is expected to happen,

i will never lower off fixed hardwear, i don't want to count on equipment that i don't know the full history of. If you can't rap, don't sport climb.

do you see the difference in forces applied to a fixture when rappelling and lowering?

This move kills/maims more people than rappelling, by a longshot.

there is a difference in the forces applied TO THE HARDWEAR between rapping and lowering off hardwear, which is the point i was trying to illustrate.

do you think it is wiser to lower off fixed hardwear, or to learn how to rappel safely from rap rings, chains or whatever it is at the top of a sport route? KEL_E

I don't understand why you insist that, on a single pitch climb, "experienced trad climbers" would rather lower off potentially comprimised hangers than rap down, knowing they had all safety systems in place.

"Or just learn how to do it on rap, it's not hard, you just need a little help from the clowns on the ground, who should have you on a fireman's anyway."

I still challenge those of you who think cleaning on rap is not that hard, to try it on a fiercely overhanging 5.12. If you've been to the Minimum wall at Maple or the Box Canyon, you know that as soon as you unclip that last bolt, you go swinging across and are likely to hit the ground. I've seen many idiots deck after trying to clean some of these routes on rap. I'm just glad none of them hurt themselves bad enough to warrent medical attention and ruin my climbing day.

BTW, if they have you on a fireman's belay, you are now relying on them again in much the same manner you would if they lowered you, so why not just lower?

Lumping ALL rap accidents against failed anchors is misleading. Too many other ways to get chopped rapping to attribute them all to sport climbing bails.

I'm not sure I, as a 100 pound belayer, could stop my husband, at 150 pounds, from swinging out from the last bolt if he's on rappel. Now, if he's lowering and stays clipped into the rope running from the first bolt up to the anchors (I know it's complicated, but stay with me), then I can safely lower him without being dragged all over the crag.

I truly do not think those of you who think it's so easy to rap-clean have ever tried on something extremely overhanging.

Rappeling, though, is inherently more dangerous than lowering off, so is rapping just to preserve gear justified? No.

Accidents due to 'sawed' anchors that I have been present for;
china wall mid nineties-broken bones
clear creek cnyn Co early 2002 ? they were loading a dead guy when we arrived, we split. Shuts replaced the nest day.

Who? When? I've never heard of a death/injury from worn-through sport anchors. Rappelling accidents, on the other hand, are commonplace, and would be more so if more people rapped instead of lowering.

Do you? Give me an estimate and I'll let you know whether it's anywhere near my guess.

Now the useless side topic of rapping did apply to sport routes.

This thread is hilarious! I'm a bit surprised so many of you rap from anchors on single pitch sport routes (maybe 40% of contributors to this thread :?: ) . To those that rap please let me know the following:

If you want to rap fine go ahead. But you need to recognise that in the real world virtually no one raps from single pitch sports routes. The only ones that do are visiting trad climbers! Of course this is speaking about Europe, I can't speak for what is protocol in the US.

um, Rumney, for one....You could get away with lowering through the shuts, but someone would probably say something to you before too long....

This thread is hilarious!

Interesting reply landgolier. Thanks.


I would be astounded if someone came up to me and said that but what do I know about common practices in Rumney? :) I was under the impression that lowering was the done thing in the US as well but maybe I was slightly misled.

If you want to rap fine go ahead. But you need to recognise that in the real world virtually no one raps from single pitch sports routes. The only ones that do are visiting trad climbers! Of course this is speaking about Europe, I can't speak for what is protocol in the US.

It's the same here. With very few exceptions, the only ones who rap are n00bs and visiting trads.

Jay

Interesting reply landgolier. Thanks.


I would be astounded if someone came up to me and said that but what do I know about common practices in Rumney? :) I was under the impression that lowering was the done thing in the US as well but maybe I was slightly misled.

But I saw plenty of half sawn shuts at Owens in '92 - sport climbing couldn't have been more than 5 yrs old then (there). If attendance continues, yearly replacement seems reasonable.

Daithi, the assumptions you made in your previous post were correct. Landgolier is not primarily a sport climber, and Rumney is not an influential sport crag. I've never climbed at Rumney, but at any sport crag have climbed at it is usual practice for at least the last person in a group to lower off the shuts. At many crags it is normal for every climber to lower off the shuts. I've been "corrected" by beginners at crags where I've been climbing with the main developer for years. If someone "corrects" you when you lower, it's virtually certain that they are a beginner.

Jay

Interesting that you know that, Jay, being that we have never met or climbed together.

I don't get real fired up about what type of climbing I do, but most places I go have a little of everything.

If you want to rap fine go ahead. But you need to recognise that in the real world virtually no one raps from single pitch sports routes. The only ones that do are visiting trad climbers! Of course this is speaking about Europe, I can't speak for what is protocol in the US.

I can read, though:


Jay

You know, the only redeeming quality about you always having to be right about everything is that it makes you so damn easy to troll.

This, and the other posts echoing the sentiment seem more like statements of fashion than utility or better technique. Conformity in these sorts of things is a key to acceptance within some groups, so I suppose it is natural for it to be important to some people. Following protocol is crucial if you want to fit in.

If the route's severely overhung, you're gonna need your belayer to help you out from the ground anyway. why not rap and save the wear on your rope and the anchors? It's only slightly harder to rap than be lowered on those steep routes.

If you've climbed for any length of time in popular areas like; Rifle, OR gorge, Shelf road, big chief, Jailhouse, or any number of trad areas you'd know that they aren't, always.

and Rumney is not an influential sport crag. I've never climbed at Rumney,

haaahahahhahahahahahhaaahahahahaaahaahahahaaahaaahaaaahaahaahaha

What, if anything, is your point, Wes? I've never climbed at Ceuse either, yet I know it is an influential sport crag.

Jay

What? You have to position the shuts at 45 degrees towards each other. If you hang them straight down, they'll get pulled inwards naturally when people lower off them.

Oh, I just find it funny how you can so confidently claim that Rumney is not an influencial crag. I guess I still get a kick out of idiots taking themselves so seriously.

Accidents due to 'sawed' anchors that I have been present for;
china wall mid nineties-broken bones
clear creek cnyn Co early 2002 ? they were loading a dead guy when we arrived, we split. Shuts replaced the nest day.

Wes, you wouldn't know an idiot if you saw one in the mirror.

Jay

Found one...year 2000...rope mismanagement...was this it?

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/clear_creek_canyon/the_catslab/105744767

I don't go ski touring without a transceiver, shovel, probe and training to use this gear (and make sure I know my partners have the gear and know what to do too), and the same vein, I don't climb without covering all the bases THAT I CAN.

And when you hang them at 45 degrees, they get pulled outward natually when people hang draws on them. Draw a diagram and take a moment to ponder the forces before you reply.

If you have ever cleaned a sport route that is steeper than hell and still think it should be done on rappel then you are an idiot. However you have probably never climbed anything steeper than the upper half of my bare ass and so you don't know what you are talking about. That makes you a double idiot and retard to boot.

2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does.

And when you hang them at 45 degrees, they get pulled outward natually when people hang draws on them. Draw a diagram and take a moment to ponder the forces before you reply.