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unrooted
Feb 12, 2008, 4:15 AM
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What bolts do you like in limestone?
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sbaclimber
Feb 12, 2008, 4:47 AM
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Depends on the limestone.....
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unrooted
Feb 12, 2008, 4:49 AM
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sbaclimber wrote: Depends on the limestone.....
The kind worth bolting.
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sbaclimber
Feb 12, 2008, 4:58 AM
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unrooted wrote: sbaclimber wrote: Depends on the limestone..... The kind worth bolting.
You may think I am trying to be difficult, but here in NZ there is limestone so soft that any bolt is pretty much suspect (and yes, it is still worth climbing) and other stuff that is plenty hard enough to take 3/8" expansion bolts.
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unrooted
Feb 12, 2008, 5:08 AM
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I don't really know yet, it will be in Jamaica, what would you suggest for medium hardness (for limestone)?
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sbaclimber
Feb 12, 2008, 5:14 AM
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unrooted wrote: I don't really know yet, it will be in Jamaica, what would you suggest for medium hardness (for limestone)?
Caveat, I don't have any personal experience bolting limestone. I have climbed on a lot of it, of widely differing qualities, both here an in Germany though.
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miavzero
Feb 12, 2008, 5:21 AM
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Fixe 3/8''x4'' double expansion SS has served me well in Nevada limestone.
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unrooted
Feb 12, 2008, 5:33 AM
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Where is the best place to buy them? They cost about $8 at gear shops right? Also I'm only finding 3.75" bolts.
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miavzero
Feb 12, 2008, 5:38 AM
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I get them through a friend for about $5 each. I know REI used to carry them for a liile more.
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rockjunkie2
Feb 21, 2008, 10:17 PM
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i never use limestone bolts
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lithiummetalman
Feb 21, 2008, 10:52 PM
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Limestone is fun stuff...
anyways
used 1/2" X 3 1/2" concrete stud bolts reinforced with industrial grade concrete cement epoxy
hope this helps!
Peace
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sbaclimber
Feb 21, 2008, 11:12 PM
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lithiummetalman wrote: used 1/2" X 3 1/2" concrete stud bolts reinforced with industrial grade concrete cement epoxy
If you are going to go through the trouble of using glue, then just do the job right.
Glue works on the principal of proper contact over a surface area. Using an expansion (what I assume is meant by "stud") bolt with the glue simply reduces the chances that glue coverage is going to be correct.
"reinforced" in this case is more than likely just a fallacy.
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tolman_paul
Feb 22, 2008, 12:46 AM
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You can seal a bolt with epoxy, but jsut gooping epoxy in the hole and driving and tensioning a stud anchor isn't the same as a proper glue in.
For a glue in you drill a hole typically 1/16" over the dia of the stud, either add a chemical "pill" that you mix as you drive and spin the stud in place, or use a two part glue that mixes in the nozzle as you put it in the hole and then set the stud.
I'm pretty much going to 1/2" X 5 1/2" stud anchors for our local choss rock. With a power drill there is no reason not to place a large bolt in questionable rock.
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lithiummetalman
Feb 22, 2008, 12:48 AM
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Good to know! Thanx!
This was years ago, the fellow (he worked in construction) I worked with suggested using the epoxy cement as a filler once the bolt was in place and the usage of concrete stud bolts instead of expansion bolts.
I still got a long ways of learning to go. any tips and advice much appreciated
peace
edited for clarity
(This post was edited by lithiummetalman on Feb 22, 2008, 12:49 AM)
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chossmonkey
Feb 22, 2008, 1:06 AM
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unrooted wrote: I don't really know yet, it will be in Jamaica, what would you suggest for medium hardness (for limestone)?
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unrooted
Feb 22, 2008, 1:11 AM
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chossmonkey wrote: are they sea cliffs?
No, they should be around 20-50 miles from the ocean, the sea cliffs will hopefully provide some good psychobloc.
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chossmonkey
Feb 26, 2008, 4:32 PM
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unrooted wrote: chossmonkey wrote: are they sea cliffs? No, they should be around 20-50 miles from the ocean, the sea cliffs will hopefully provide some good psychobloc.
If it is medium hardness use at least 3/8"x3", it normally doesn't hurt to error on the side of a bit bigger or longer. Make sure to use stainless even though they aren't in a sea cliff. Most stainless bolts and hangers are 304 stainless. I think its 316 stainless you would need if it was near the ocean.
If it is pocketed make sure to have a couple different lengths, sometimes a shorter bolt will be more secure than a longer bolt if it means the longer bolt is going through a pocket putting the expansion cone near an edge. The double clipped Fixe bolts would be the safest bet short of a glue-in.
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unrooted
Feb 26, 2008, 4:51 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: If it is medium hardness use at least 3/8"x3", it normally doesn't hurt to error on the side of a bit bigger or longer. Make sure to use stainless even though they aren't in a sea cliff. Most stainless bolts and hangers are 304 stainless. I think its 316 stainless you would need if it was near the ocean. If it is pocketed make sure to have a couple different lengths, sometimes a shorter bolt will be more secure than a longer bolt if it means the longer bolt is going through a pocket putting the expansion cone near an edge. The double clipped Fixe bolts would be the safest bet short of a glue-in.
I found these at Fixe's website:
http://fixehardware.com/...e-grade_hardware.htm
Do you know of any other sources for A-316 SS bolts?
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koopatroopa
Feb 26, 2008, 6:00 PM
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what's the peace corps got to say about throwing bolts up while in the service?
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chossmonkey
Feb 26, 2008, 6:04 PM
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You can get the A-316 bolts from Hilti, Powers, ECT. but I think only Fixe makes 316 hangers.
I think mixing the two could be bad in certain environments. I don't know enough about it to say for sure.
Epoxy coated hangers like from Metoliuos might help protect the hanger as long as the coating doesn't get chipped.
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unrooted
Feb 29, 2008, 1:31 AM
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how close is 'near the ocean'? Most of the rock would be inland several miles, do you think that would make 304 good enough?
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sbaclimber
Feb 29, 2008, 2:14 AM
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unrooted wrote: how close is 'near the ocean'? Most of the rock would be inland several miles, do you think that would make 304 good enough?
I've seen 10yr old SS bolts within spitting distance of the ocean that were in fine condition (overall sunny and dry conditions), and then there's Thailand style......less than 5yrs old and already turned to mank.
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chossmonkey
Feb 29, 2008, 12:02 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: unrooted wrote: how close is 'near the ocean'? Most of the rock would be inland several miles, do you think that would make 304 good enough? All caveats apply of course, but chances are 304 would be fine. All really depends on the overall climate though. I've seen 10yr old SS bolts within spitting distance of the ocean that were in fine condition (overall sunny and dry conditions), and then there's Thailand style......less than 5yrs old and already turned to mank.
From what I've heard you can't really tell when a SS bolt is going bad, it just breaks.
It seems I heard something about the 304 bolts at Camen Brac going bad as well. I think standard glue-ins made for reliable replacements to the mechanical bolts since they were isolated from the rock. Thailand is a whole different kettle of fish.
As to the distance of the ocean, I have heard within 5 miles of the coast can be considered a marine environment for building materials and stainless (normally 304) should be used rather than plated steel.
I would guess as long as you can't smell the ocean 304 stainless would be okay as far as climbing anchors go. That could be bad info though.
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unrooted
Mar 4, 2008, 5:19 PM
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what do you think of fixe triplex bolts? they are cheaper than stainless rawls, and are removeable.
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chossmonkey
Mar 4, 2008, 5:29 PM
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unrooted wrote: what do you think of fixe triplex bolts? they are cheaper than stainless rawls, and are removeable.
They will likely be a bitch to remove installed like that, but there would be a slight chance that if the flange is between the hanger and the nut the whole installation could pull out if the nut loosened and there was an outward pull.
You also may need to flare the opening of the hole very slightly to get the flange to sit all the way flush with the rock. If the hanger is not tight against the rock it will tend to want to spin.
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unrooted
Mar 4, 2008, 5:36 PM
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do you have any experience with wedge bolts like these:
http://www.fixeusa.com/...stud_wedge_bolts.htm
Also, if you were to use the triplex's would placing a rubber washer between the hanger and the rock/sleeve be good?
(This post was edited by unrooted on Mar 4, 2008, 5:40 PM)
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chossmonkey
Mar 4, 2008, 5:59 PM
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Yes, but if I use studs like that I normally use Hilti. You would likely be better to buy non-Fixe studs from somewhere other than Fixe as they are just reselling them. If you buy them in bulk from a fastener supply you can probably get them for cheaper. Stud bolt strength can vary greatly so make sure you buy from a reputable manufacturer. Or just buy the Fixe studs as they are made for climbing and super strong.
In limestone the Triplex would probably be better as they have a larger diameter. Because it has a full sleeve the Triplex would also be more forgiving if you hit softer rock inside the hole. In soft rock or if installed into a pocket the clip on stud bolt can work its way right off and the stud will come out leaving the clips in the hole.
Even if you put the flange behind the hanger the Triplexes can likely be removed and the hole reused someday when they need to be replaced unlike the stud bolts. Unless it is a botched bolt, with stud bolts all you can do is chop them, patch the hole and drill a new hole. If the rock is less than fantastic finding a good place to put the new hole can be a bitch since the first bolt was likely placed in the best place as far as rock quality and clipping go.
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