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carabiner96
Sep 2, 2008, 3:55 PM
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****Make this a sticky?****
As I'm sure you know, chicks are awesome. The thing I think that makes girls awesome is that they're NOT dudes.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) this sport that we love is still dude oriented, from magazine ads to product design. Us chicks aren't built the same as dudes, nor do we even like the same looks as some hairy gent at the gym.
So, this thread is dedicated to the best (and worst) of women's specific gear - or non-specific but things that work great for women non the less. Shoes, harnesses, packs, tank tops...if it works for one lady, it might help out another!
This could go in gear heads, but I think it fit's a little nicer in here.
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carabiner96
Sep 2, 2008, 4:08 PM
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I'll start!
Lady's Techno by Scarpa, $125.00
* Women-specific FNW last excels on technical trad routes
* Low-profile toe lets you securely slot your foot into a crack
* Heel Lock System secures foot in place without the use of a heel rand, thereby reducing pressure on the Achilles tendon for excellent all-day comfort
* Four-millimeter VibramŽ XS Grip rubber provides critical support and necessary stickiness
* Lacing system accommodates a wide range of foot shapes
Ok, my bits:
-Super sticky rubber. think that scene in the polar bear princess( c'mon, you've all seen it) where she just scales right up the cliff...that's you in these shoes!
-I have a fairly low volume, narrowish foot that filled out the shoe quite nicely
-It's easy to overtighten the heel ribbon, i got a sore achilles a few times in these shoes
-Great for finger to hand cracks, a little on the soft side for anything bigger than that.
-Stretches a half size or less. I'm a 38.5 in most la sportiva, was a 38.5 in these, i'm a 7 3/4 street shoe size.
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macherry
Sep 2, 2008, 4:34 PM
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nice idea biner!!!
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tigerlilly
Sep 2, 2008, 7:19 PM
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Excellent idea, 'Biner!
I've been very happy with the new Boreal Lunas: http://www.boreal-club.com/Us/Html/index1.htm
They are great for skinny feet and all-day climbs. Probably not so great for high-performance bouldering and the like, or for crack climbing (rand is low).
Pros: They're soft and comfy, but still edge well and provide adequate support for my achy old feet. Slightly asymetric, but not enough to hurt my longer middle toe. Lined, so they didn't stretch out to be too large in the 6 or 7 months I've used them. In fact, they really haven't stretched much at all, so buy them just about the way you want them to fit in the end. My size 9AA feet fit well in a UK 5.5.
Cons: They're pink. I'm not a fan of pink anything. They're so comfy, I've forgiven them for their unfortunate color.
Note: The Sol is the same shoe with two velcro straps. I tried these on but opted for the lace-up Lunas. These were the first velcro shoes I actually could wear and not have the velcro strap wrapped so far over that the hooks and loops no longer meet. (I have really, really narrow feet).
Kathy
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carabiner96
Sep 2, 2008, 7:29 PM
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That's not too bad!
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macherry
Sep 2, 2008, 8:57 PM
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tigerlilly wrote: Excellent idea, 'Biner! I've been very happy with the new Boreal Lunas: http://www.boreal-club.com/Us/Html/index1.htm They are great for skinny feet and all-day climbs. Probably not so great for high-performance bouldering and the like, or for crack climbing (rand is low). Pros: They're soft and comfy, but still edge well and provide adequate support for my achy old feet. Slightly asymetric, but not enough to hurt my longer middle toe. Lined, so they didn't stretch out to be too large in the 6 or 7 months I've used them. In fact, they really haven't stretched much at all, so buy them just about the way you want them to fit in the end. My size 9AA feet fit well in a UK 5.5. Cons: They're pink. I'm not a fan of pink anything. They're so comfy, I've forgiven them for their unfortunate color. Note: The Sol is the same shoe with two velcro straps. I tried these on but opted for the lace-up Lunas. These were the first velcro shoes I actually could wear and not have the velcro strap wrapped so far over that the hooks and loops no longer meet. (I have really, really narrow feet). Kathy
how is the rubber, i had a pair of boreals a few years back and i hated the rubber, not grippy, very slipppery
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tigerlilly
Sep 3, 2008, 1:21 PM
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macherry wrote: How is the rubber, i had a pair of boreals a few years back and i hated the rubber, not grippy, very slipppery
I have not had any trouble with the Boreal RS Quattro rubber not being sticky enough, and smearing is not my best skill. It seems to be at least as sticky as the LaSportiva XS Grip rubber that was on some other shoes I tried. I had read and heard several comments to the effect of "Boreal rubber sucks," and was a bit leary when I bought these, but I have been pleasantly surprised.
Regards,
Kathy
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wonderwoman
Sep 5, 2008, 1:27 PM
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Okay, my turn to chime in! Great thread and idea btw, biner!
I just bought a helmet last night that fits my teeny weeny head! It's the black diamond half dome. It's super light and is the first helmet to ever fit me. It can be adjusted down to 53cm, while the rest of my helmets have only gone down to 56cm:
http://www.bdel.com/gear/half_dome.php
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granite_grrl
Sep 5, 2008, 2:15 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Okay, my turn to chime in! Great thread and idea btw, biner! I just bought a helmet last night that fits my teeny weeny head! It's the black diamond half dome. It's super light and is the first helmet to ever fit me. It can be adjusted down to 53cm, while the rest of my helmets have only gone down to 56cm: [image]http://www.bdel.com/images/gear/s07/620204_HalfDome.jpg[/image] http://www.bdel.com/gear/half_dome.php
I went to replace my halfdome after I crashed and burned. Replaced the old style one with a new one. I didn't find the new suspension comfortable at all so I went on the search for yet another new helmet.
Ended up with a Petzl Elios (great new suspension sytem, btw), size 1. Size 2 is huge on me, but size 1 is significantly smaller....smaller than my Half Dome too. I need to bring the Half Dome when out ice climbing a lot of the times 'cause I can't wear a thicker hat under the Elios.
So yeah, the Half Dome might be good for small head, but the Elios is kick ass too.
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wonderwoman
Sep 5, 2008, 2:26 PM
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I have the elios size 1, and even when I wear a head band it still tips to the side and generally flops around on my head. Although I do like the color better, I look like a dork with a tilted helmet. The half dome seems to stay put.
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granite_grrl
Sep 5, 2008, 2:28 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I have the elios size 1, and even when I wear a head band it still tips to the side and generally flops around on my head. Although I do like the color better, I look like a dork with a tilted helmet. The half dome seems to stay put.
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wonderwoman
Sep 5, 2008, 2:31 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I have the elios size 1, and even when I wear a head band it still tips to the side and generally flops around on my head. Although I do like the color better, I look like a dork with a tilted helmet. The half dome seems to stay put. I find the opposite (my halfdome tips and flops, even ice climbing I wear the Elios as much as I can). Our head must be totally different shapes.
I think I'm a mutant! The elios even fits my daughters head!
Maybe they changed something in the structure of the helmet recently?
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talia
Sep 5, 2008, 5:19 PM
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I just got the grivel salamander because it was on sale at REI and i needed it asap. It's a little lose on my head on the smallest setting, but i can just throw my hair in braided pig tails or wear a bandana underneath and it works out well.
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acacongua
Sep 9, 2008, 8:09 PM
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Here's a couple of inquiries:
1. For Maple climbers, what is the best rubber? I was slipping a lot with my Anasazi's, although putting a lot of work in my feet gained me stronger abs.
2. Which is warmer - Patagonia R2 or North Face Denali?
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tigerlilly
Sep 9, 2008, 8:48 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Okay, my turn to chime in! Great thread and idea btw, biner! I just bought a helmet last night that fits my teeny weeny head! It's the black diamond half dome. It's super light and is the first helmet to ever fit me. It can be adjusted down to 53cm, while the rest of my helmets have only gone down to 56cm:
BD seems to care about us small-headed folks. The Tracer is another good lid for little skulls. Nice of them to make it in 3 sizes instead of 1 or 2. I find mine to be forgettably comfortable.
(This post was edited by tigerlilly on Sep 9, 2008, 8:49 PM)
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wonderwoman
Sep 9, 2008, 8:54 PM
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oohhh! I like the yellow!
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talia
Sep 9, 2008, 9:21 PM
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inquirie numero dos...
I can't vouch for the patagonia R2, but the Northface Denali is warm, but does not block wind at all. It's more of a trendy fleece and should only be worn with ugg boots
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lwilson
Sep 11, 2008, 3:55 PM
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I LOVE the Petzl Luna harness. Great for sport, long trad routes and hanging belays, and also ice. So very impressed with this harness.
http://en.petzl.com/...Produits?Produit=631
great idea 'biner!
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lwilson
Sep 11, 2008, 4:04 PM
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wait, I have another one....(for all you ice climbers...)
anyone else own these? I've been using them for 2 seasons now, and they are excellent for technical ice. My feet can still get a little cold, as new england winters are wet and damp, but these are noted to not be the warmest of boots. You give that up to get the great technical handling of them. I used them in Ouray (dry cold) and my feet felt great.
http://www.sportiva.com/products/prod/281
btw...how do you post an image into these comments? it looks way better than a url link.
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wonderwoman
Sep 11, 2008, 4:15 PM
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How many gear loops on that Lauren? I'm in the market for a new harness myself.
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lwilson
Sep 11, 2008, 4:30 PM
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Tiff -
4 gear loops, and they hold enough gear for me (and I like to take a LOT with me). I can almost fit a double rack on it, even with the way I rack (each piece has its own biner than I directly clip into, and I bring a handfull of extendos).
Even with all the weight, the harness feels pretty good on the hips.
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tavs
Sep 11, 2008, 9:59 PM
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acacongua wrote: Here's a couple of inquiries: 1. For Maple climbers, what is the best rubber? I was slipping a lot with my Anasazi's, although putting a lot of work in my feet gained me stronger abs. 2. Which is warmer - Patagonia R2 or North Face Denali?
Re: #1. Not really an answer, but that's because I don't know that there is a good one. I climb in Maple frequently, these days in either Anasazis or Moccasyms, but I used to wear Muiras a lot. To be honest, I don't know that any other rubber is going to perform much better. The cobbles just don't have much texture, but on the plus side, on most routes there are feet everywhere :) I try to keep my feet on the gritty stuff that holds the cobbles together as much as possible.
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nicolebridges1983
Sep 13, 2008, 8:21 AM
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Hi,
Although i'm new to climbing and this is my first Helmet, just thought might be a great idea to share for those who were looking for a new helmet.
Its the Petzl Ecrin Roc. It is comfortable, does not slide back when you look up, love the adjustment system, is not tight and it sits on the head well. This is my personal opinion, like i said this is the first helmet i have had. But i'm extremely happy with it. The minute i tried it on, it just felt right. Be interested to know if anyone has had any problems with it or are eually as happy as i am.
Cheers.
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zenelky
Sep 15, 2008, 2:15 PM
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Since winter is rolling around, I wanted to let you all know that I will not recommend the Women's Sub-Zero Jacket by Mountain Hardware (although it's priced well if you get last years model).
Two primary reasons
1: It's cut short to fit women, but it's cut a too short (maybe to look cuter?) so you're lower back is usually poking out and getting cold, ESPECIALLY while belaying and/or sitting. I'm a short girl with a short torso, so I can only imagine how cold your middle would be if you were the average female.
2: The arms are cut too short. This was also alarming because I bought the jacket 1 size big to compensate for the extra clothing I wear under it. So again, if I bought it 1 size larger and the arms are stilll short with my negative ape index, I fear for the frozen wrists of average women everywhere.
Also, I bought this jacket at the beginning of last winter, washed it once and all the down migrated to the bottom of the arms (maybe to compensate for not covering my wrists, the down was meant to keep my forearms warm?). Contacted MH, sent it back, they fixed it, then I washed it again per their instructions and the down came out again. 
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macherry
Sep 15, 2008, 2:54 PM
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for down, i have a cloudveil inversion down parka, its discontinued, but i recommend cloudveil for the fit . they still have the inversion, but without the hood.
i also have a mountbell 800 fill for throwing in the pack for touring. waaay cheaper than the pantagonia downsweater. i'll have to look up the site where i bought it , but it was only abour 114 bucks.
prolitegear.com
still on sale alpine light down jacket 117.00.
lots of others on sale including the cloudveil inversion down
(This post was edited by macherry on Sep 15, 2008, 2:57 PM)
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aerili
Sep 17, 2008, 9:54 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: How many gear loops on that Lauren? I'm in the market for a new harness myself.
I would go Misty Mountain all the way. No more Petzl harnesses for me; Misty has WAY better gear loops and padding IMO.
I own the Finesse (you can see my review in the Gear section under women's harnesses), and there is also one other women's harness they make as well.
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marebear
Sep 30, 2008, 10:28 PM
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+1 for the Petzl Luna harness. I used to climb in the Black Diamond Diva for sport climbing and the leg loops were so sparsely padded that I got bruises from big falls and hanging. The gear loops on the Luna are sufficient for a whole grip of quick draws, anchor stuff, yadda yadda. I can't really vouch for it's abilities as a big wall, ice, or trad harness.
For shoes, I love the fit of La Sportiva's Lady Katana, but burned through the rubber too fast on the pair I had to justify another. I now have a pair of Evolve Elektras and love the fit (in spite of the stink), but will always prefer 5.10's rubber, so I would recommend Anasazis if they fit you. They don't fit me. I have a pair of 5.10 Prima Slippers for the gym. They are not stiff at all and suck for edging, but were cheap for tearing up in the gym and the lack of stiffness makes your feet STRONG.
And for whoever was asking about jackets, I can't vouch for the Patagonia R2, but I LOVE LOVE my R4. Windproof, breathable, stretchy, and short enough in the torso to not muck up your harness situation. Another jacket that I am thrilled with is the Mountain Hardwear Compressor PL jacket. It's lightweight, compressible insulation and really warm for the weight.
Anyone have any good pack recommendations? I'm looking for one that can go from a day of cragging, but can also handle a couple day backpacking trip. Not a huge pack... somewhere around 3000 cubic inches. Right now, I schlep around a day pack and a rope bag. Not comfy.
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hstewart
Oct 7, 2008, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: Anyone have any good pack recommendations? I'm looking for one that can go from a day of cragging, but can also handle a couple day backpacking trip. Not a huge pack... somewhere around 3000 cubic inches. Right now, I schlep around a day pack and a rope bag. Not comfy.
The Gregory Jade is a pretty nice pack that fits what you're looking for -- and they make a 50 and 60L. Fits and moves really well and has tons of space and exterior pockets (including nalgene-sized pockets on the side). I only have two complaints on this pack: 1) you have to coil your rope very tight to get it to drop right to the bottom of the pack since it's a tad smaller on the bottom 2) the nalgenes slide out of the side pockets unless you clip them in with a little biner...but the pockets do have little loops to snap them in. All of that said, it's the best woman's pack I've owned and the benefits outweigh these two little quirks.
http://www.gregorypacks.com/...=overview&cid=90
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wonderwoman
Oct 14, 2008, 4:34 PM
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Anyone have recommendations for soft shell pants? I am looking to extend my climbing season as long as possible so I'm trying to get the best gear to stay the warmest.
Specifically, anyone know anything about the North Face Dynamic Soft Shell Pants? These look like a good deal:
http://www.mountaingear.com/...MG/item/207096/N/925
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acacongua
Oct 21, 2008, 8:07 PM
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aerili wrote: I would go Misty Mountain all the way. No more Petzl harnesses for me; Misty has WAY better gear loops and padding IMO.
I agree, except they are bulkier for those climbing enduro steep. My next harness will be the Arc'teryx Nasa (that's my name for the new one) - lighter than a quickdraw!
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macherry
Nov 4, 2008, 5:21 PM
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chicks gear!!!! so i'm going to buy a new probe for backcountry skiing and i see women's specific probes and shovels from G3. i never really thought of a shovel or a probe being women's specific. the women's probe is the same price as the men's, but it supposedly packs up better and fits a women's pack. i'm going to order it and i'll let you know what the difference is.
so here's a question, do you buy women's specific gear or it doesn't really matter.
i usually buy whatever fits, i do have women's specific skis and climbing shoes, but a men's harness. i have a women's specific ski touring pack, but a regular (men's) pack for climbing trips
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lwilson
Nov 6, 2008, 6:36 PM
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women's specific gear matters in certain instances....like harnesses, and coats. But I find climbing shoes, and packs are a better fit for me when its a unisex or mens. which is weird cause I am short (5'2), and have a small shoe size (women's 6.5). maybe its cause I have a long torso and wide feet?
I tend to at least check out a women's specific size if available and compare it with the regular, cause sometimes you never know.
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lwilson
Nov 6, 2008, 6:48 PM
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I just ordered a pair of these! I'll let you know how they turn out. :) I've found that TNF pants fit really well. that, and Prana. last season I had picked up some fleece-lined Prana pants that are solf shell like, and they worked wonders this past weekend (it was cold!).
so 100 bucks for those pants sounds like deal. the cool thing about pants like these is you can wear them around town as well.
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tavs
Nov 6, 2008, 8:59 PM
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Whether I do women's specific: it depends. My harness and shoes are unisex or men's; my backpacking pack is a women's (Gregory) because it fits so much better for such a heavy load, but my various other packs are all unisex. Given that, I wouldn't see how a women's specific probe would be useful for me (since my packs are mostly the same as a men's). I'd guess the shovel has a smaller handle, maybe?
Can anyone recommend a good but reasonably priced ski jacket? I've already got standard softshell and hard shell jackets for many uses, but I'd like a less-expensive ski jacket mostly for resort use so I don't wear out my softshell as much! Something with a powder skirt, hood preferable, not too thick or insulated (I prefer to layer for warmth).
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carabiner96
Nov 6, 2008, 9:19 PM
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Straight from the G3 rep's mouth: the only difference on the women's shovel and probe are color.
As for ski jacket, EMS has a bunch of reasonably priced ones that will all be 20% off this weekend, pm me if you're looking at one, I can tell you more than you want to know about it!
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carabiner96
Nov 7, 2008, 3:32 AM
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macherry wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Straight from the G3 rep's mouth: the only difference on the women's shovel and probe are color. As for ski jacket, EMS has a bunch of reasonably priced ones that will all be 20% off this weekend, pm me if you're looking at one, I can tell you more than you want to know about it! no shit!! the description on their website sez it's more compact for a women's pack.............fer fuck sakes!!! the colour is nice though.........
Oh, now that you mentioned it, the sections might be a squidge shorter, but i think that's all. He really thinks the whole thing is a gimmick.
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macherry
Nov 7, 2008, 3:45 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: macherry wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Straight from the G3 rep's mouth: the only difference on the women's shovel and probe are color. As for ski jacket, EMS has a bunch of reasonably priced ones that will all be 20% off this weekend, pm me if you're looking at one, I can tell you more than you want to know about it! no shit!! the description on their website sez it's more compact for a women's pack.............fer fuck sakes!!! the colour is nice though......... Oh, now that you mentioned it, the sections might be a squidge shorter, but i think that's all. He really thinks the whole thing is a gimmick.
oh, i'm sure it is...the thing of it is, though, if a woman is looking for a probe or shovel, she just might choose g3 over black diamond because of the women's specific thing. I'm replacing a probe and my old one was g3 and i like it so i am considering the women's model.
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acacongua
Nov 10, 2008, 2:09 PM
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acacongua wrote: 2. Which is warmer - Patagonia R2 or North Face Denali?
Did my own researching and the Denali wins hands down. It was 44 and cloudy this weekend (and I was at a shaded cliff). I wore my Icebreaker wool and my Denali and didn't even need my puffy. Yeah ... it's gonna be a good Winter. What's crazy though is that i'm a size 4-6 and I had to get XSmall.
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rockie
Nov 21, 2008, 6:12 AM
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I'm an ultimate black diamond fan, I love the gear, harness, nuts, cams etc, I tend to only buy black diamond, I trust it.
I have a mammut rope, 70m, it's light.
I have a Petzl helmet, light, it's great.
I wear 5.11 shoes, and have not been happier.
Well I'd recommend the above at least. 
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rockie
Nov 21, 2008, 6:14 AM
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Oh and I also got some nice climbing pants from Mountain Hardware, only at first I felt they're too good to climb in, I could wear them for a night out.
I love the female clothing in that store, stylish.
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tigerlilly
Dec 8, 2008, 12:22 AM
Post #44 of 53
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Registered: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 564
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I just got back from my first ice outing of the season, and I have to say I'm deliriously happy with two items I picked up in the last year. Well, deliriously happy is a bit strong. I think I am just a bit delirious, and happy. And tired. Whew! Anyway, the gear:
Ragged Mountain in NH makes and sells a stretch fleece jogbra. My core was nice and toasty, instead of chilly and clammy in my regular sport bra. Probably not for the well-endowed, because it's a simple, flat shape, but for my modest form, definitely thumbs up! http://raggedmountain.com/...power-sport-bra.html
Grivel Quantum Tech ice tools. Can you say "light"? One swing sticks most times, and I don't get "stupid hands" like I get from swinging heavier tools. The price is steep, but I got them on sale near the end of last season for about 30% off. Grivel NA closed up shop, but there are still a few places you can get 'em, including The Mountaineer in Keene, NY.
Kathy
(This post was edited by tigerlilly on Dec 8, 2008, 1:27 AM)
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gym_wench
Jan 8, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #45 of 53
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Registered: Dec 17, 2004
Posts: 25
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Great idea! My favorite women-specific shoes have been discontinued - sigh. Please bring back the 5.10 Prima lace-ups! They're pretty and pink and I love them!
I also really like the Red Chili Women's Spirit IZ. Super comfy, but the rubber wears down quick, and they're not very technical.
As for harnesses, Arc'teryx will have my money until they decide to stop making harnesses. It's like sitting in a cloud.
And, the most important piece of female specific climbing gear: the sports bra. I absolutely love a bra made by Patagonia that I think they discontinued. It was extremely low-cut on the sides so your lats have plenty of room to breath and you don't get the rollover other sports bras can give you. There's also a great crisscross bra that Prana used to make that was low cut across the lats and didn't give me una-boob. I'm a small girl, but I still don't like looking like I've smuggled a summer sausage up my shirt!
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rockie
Jan 9, 2009, 10:08 AM
Post #46 of 53
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Registered: Sep 18, 2007
Posts: 1130
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carabiner96 wrote: rockie wrote: I wear 5.11 shoes, and have not been happier. 5.10's are for pro's, 5.11's for the pussies!
Oh really 
Too funny. I see my mistake, so how did I come to post 5.11 when I meant 5.10?
Maybe a moderator adjusted my original post, ahem.
Always better to blame someone else.
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smallclimber
Jan 21, 2009, 3:50 AM
Post #47 of 53
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Registered: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 301
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I love my LaSportiva Mythos shoes (the ladies version). I am on my third pair and considering buying a lifetime supply incase they discontinue them some time.....
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acacongua
Jan 21, 2009, 8:42 PM
Post #48 of 53
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Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 657
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marebear wrote: Anyone have any good pack recommendations? around a day pack and a rope
I loooooove my Arc' Teryx pack, but I can't think of the model name. It zips all the way open and really feels great on my back with all that gear.
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acacongua
Jan 21, 2009, 8:45 PM
Post #49 of 53
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Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 657
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wonderwoman wrote: Anyone have recommendations for soft shell pants?
I've never heard of these before, but it looks like something worth trying. My climbing partner carries Mntn Hardware down pants - I use them and they keep me warm while belaying/hanging out. I look like the Michelin man though with my down jacket.
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melham
Mar 10, 2009, 6:06 PM
Post #50 of 53
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Registered: Feb 22, 2009
Posts: 7
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I just got the Arc'teryx R-280 harness (their women's harness), and it is fabulous! Fits like a dream, soooo comfortable, and incredibly thin and light weight. A bit higher priced than some of the other harnesses out there, but absolutely worth the money for me.
Of course, since I finally found a harness I love, they'll discontinue it within weeks
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andrewbanandrew
May 12, 2009, 5:41 PM
Post #51 of 53
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 441
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I'm not a chick but three of my female climbing partners love their Singing Rock Rhythm harnesses, and as a bonus they're only $45.
Only downside is that the XS only has two gear loops.
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clee03m
May 14, 2009, 4:27 AM
Post #52 of 53
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Registered: Oct 29, 2004
Posts: 785
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I got ladie's Misty Mountain Cadillac harness, and it is SO comfy. Sometimes I will choose to sit on my harness as apposed to standing because it is so comfortable. I don't think it is bulky or uncomfortable in any way. They make a woman's version where the waist is high enough for me.
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artsylady567
Dec 23, 2014, 2:46 AM
Post #53 of 53
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Registered: Jul 20, 2004
Posts: 102
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Ethos harness for those all day excursions and Muira lace-ups for the vertical roughness of limestone pocket pulling
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