|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 8, 2003, 2:07 AM
Post #1 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
OK,
I am a pretty new climber so I am not real comfortable on a rope yet anyway (toprope in a gym). Unfortunately, my partner (my wife) is even less experienced than me, and shall we say, has a hard time understanding the physics of a belay. I really want to climb, as does she (it was her idea to start), but I just don't trust her to belay me.
As you can guess, it is really limiting my ability to push my abilities when I climb with her, I am just too afraid to fall! I have seen her "forget" proper belay technique a few too many times. She has a tendency to let go with her brake hand when pulling slack. She also has a tendency to freeze up mentally. I watched her belay my 80lb niece the other night and when my niece fell, my wife held on tight to the main rope instead of locking off! Fortunately she can catch an 80lb girl this way, but there is no way she will stop my over 200lb butt like that!
I am pretty discouraged about this. I really want to climb with her but until she proves herself able I feel like I can't do anything that I wouldn't free solo! She knows her mistakes but is having a hard time overcoming them. Sooooo, anyone have any good suggestions about how I might help her get these basics down a little (lot) better?
Thanks
P.S. - she is kind of sensitive and don't want to get her discouraged and wanting to stop climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Mar 8, 2003, 2:18 AM
Post #2 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
Ooh, tough one.
My only suggestion is to seek professional help. Seriously! A good teacher will know how to teach all different kinds of people. You didn't spell it out, but perhaps you are (I'm sure as nicely as you can) repeatedly trying to drum the basic concepts into her head. It may be that your partner has a different way of thinking than you do, and a professional guide may be able to explain things in a way that you cannot, but one that will be easier for your partner to "understand" and physically incorporate. It also may be that she's picking up on your vibe, and it's making her more nervous about dropping you - a viscious circle. Fortunately, one that also might be broken by the sort of intervention I mentioned above. If she comes back with the confidence of knowing that now she "understands", and can demonstrate her ability, you'll feel better, and then she'll feel better, too. If climbing with her is really important to both of you, it could be money well spent.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
xanx
Mar 8, 2003, 2:30 AM
Post #3 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 6, 2002
Posts: 1002
|
boulder
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 8, 2003, 3:03 AM
Post #4 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
Yup, I mostly do boulder, a few times a week because the wife can only get away from the kids once or twice a month.
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Mar 8, 2003, 3:09 AM
Post #5 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
Go find a better climber and become his belay monkey. That's the only surefire way to get better. Let the diffusion of knowledge flow to you, instead of the other way around.
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Mar 8, 2003, 3:11 AM
Post #6 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
use a grigri
|
|
|
|
|
crackaddict
Mar 8, 2003, 3:21 AM
Post #7 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2000
Posts: 1279
|
Find someone else to help her belay while you are climbing. Someone that is a better more experienced climber than you both. That way she can lern how to belay and you can gain trust in her as well.. The only way she will learn is through practice and through calm proper instruction. If it is hard for you to find someone else to help you. Consider hiring a guide.
Later..
|
|
|
|
|
misha
Mar 8, 2003, 3:32 AM
Post #8 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2002
Posts: 344
|
BOULDER. And don't boulder because you don't have a belay. Boulder because you'd rather do it instead of rope climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Mar 8, 2003, 3:34 AM
Post #9 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
Hammer, if some one can't grasp the concept of belaying then a gri gri is not the answer. They are not fool proof guy. You should still not take your hand off the brake end gri gri or not.
|
|
|
|
|
hammer_
Mar 8, 2003, 3:41 AM
Post #10 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 3, 2003
Posts: 179
|
Sure kguy but it's better than what he's doing now.
|
|
|
|
|
gymclimbfreak
Mar 8, 2003, 3:49 AM
Post #11 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 124
|
I say find a new belayer.. no offense to your wife.. but i'd rather piss her off a little than be dead.. although i hear life insurance pays pretty well. :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
kcrag
Mar 8, 2003, 3:49 AM
Post #12 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2002
Posts: 599
|
In reply to: Yup, I mostly do boulder, a few times a week because the wife can only get away from the kids once or twice a month.
Am I the only one saying... WHAT? Hummm. Maybe I am mis-reading your statement, but it seems as if you split up the kid duty a little, then perhaps your wife could get out more to climb & learn?
I'd also back cracklover's comment.
|
|
|
|
|
gymclimbfreak
Mar 8, 2003, 3:51 AM
Post #13 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 124
|
Being totally serious, take her climbing more, find someone who has a lot of experience and learn from them.. most gyms offer classes, take one of those together.. there are a lot of ways you can solve this problem..
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Mar 8, 2003, 3:53 AM
Post #14 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
You should talk it over with her and tell her your concerns. Hmmm...may be a little touchy with her being your wife though. You know how women are eh. With her being your wife and all she might just take it as "oh I don't trust you with my life there sweety" :shock: Which may result in couch sleeping. It might just be safer to let her belay you :lol: Be afraid...be very afraid. Mwahahaha
|
|
|
|
|
climbinggirl33
Mar 8, 2003, 4:05 AM
Post #15 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 9, 2002
Posts: 163
|
Are you climbing in a gym? I'd ask someone who works there if he/she minded providing a back up belay to coach your wife on proper technique.
You could also say that you'd like to practice falling and climb really easy routes and make sure she's ready before you come off the wall - build up your confidence in each other.
|
|
|
|
|
brendodb
Mar 8, 2003, 4:24 AM
Post #16 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2002
Posts: 82
|
....I agree that if someone isn't using proper technique with an ATC type belay device... a Gri-Gri is not the solution... more teaching and PRACTICE is the solution...
Climber49er: You mention that your wife can only get away from the kids once or twice a month....
It may be part of the problem that she doesnt have a consistent time to practice... belaying is a simple concept, but also very easy to forget...
Find another belayer or find another babysitter... and then your wife can practice more...
GL... be safe...
|
|
|
|
|
asaph
Mar 8, 2003, 4:28 AM
Post #17 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 198
|
next time you're in the gym, just ask for a refresher course in belay technique, and go through it with her. As in, you participate in the learning too. So it's not like you're telling her "You're screwing up, you suck as a belayer, i dont trust you so go take the class again" Whatever you decide to do, go through it with her.
|
|
|
|
|
wallrat
Mar 8, 2003, 4:31 AM
Post #18 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 155
|
Ummm, what's a polite way to say that the most dangerous thing in climbing is two beginners trying to teach each other???? I would strongly recommend a GriGri, and letting her belay you taking a good whipper (small ones at first) under controlled circumstances, ie; in a gym, with a GriGri, with her clipped in so she doesn't 'kiss' the wall, and with an oldtimer standing by. It won't be until she understands the forces involved in the belay chain, and practices with them, that she'll have the experience you can trust. I hope this is of some help.
|
|
|
|
|
vulgarian
Mar 8, 2003, 4:34 AM
Post #19 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 381
|
Are you sure she wants to catch you? :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
elvis
Mar 8, 2003, 4:36 AM
Post #20 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 77
|
grigri is not the answer its not fool proof and institutes lazines in the belay . get a an expeirenced female climber to stand around and help her when she belays another female mind instucting might help as woman think diferently to men and if she si only climbing once a month she needs top get more time on rope learning
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Mar 8, 2003, 4:49 AM
Post #21 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
yeah give her a gri gri so she can learn that it's ok if she takes her hand off the brake end cause hey it will catch you every time. Then one day give her an ATC or somethin else to belay with and...uh oh, how come he fell to the ground??? :roll: :roll:
*this post had a sarcastic tone to it*
|
|
|
|
|
foograbbinstone
Mar 8, 2003, 5:09 AM
Post #22 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 18, 2002
Posts: 225
|
I skimmed thru some of the post's!!! Wife and child you might wanna give em a chance and try towork something out.............your gonna seem them everyday anyway........!!!!!! I had my brother climbing with me for a while but he has an attention span of about 12 seconds..........I'ld be sketched out and look back at him and he wouldn't even be looking at me so I'ld force myself thru to a rest and he still wouldn't be looking at me
I got to a rest and watched him and he didn't even glance in my direction for atleast 1.5 ' . So I gave him the boot!!!!! I'm sure he'ld feel real bad if I got hurt an everything but by that point who cares.
I want someone who's concerned enough too pay attention atleast!!!!
.02
mike
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Mar 8, 2003, 5:14 AM
Post #23 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
have someone watch and critique her belay
use a gri gri when you might fall
use an atc when you won't fall
to other posts
you do let go with your brake hand with a gri gri to feed out rope
gri gri's don't make you lazy, your either a good belayer or your not
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Mar 8, 2003, 5:17 AM
Post #24 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: Ooh, tough one. My only suggestion is to seek professional help. Seriously! A good teacher will know how to teach all different kinds of people. You didn't spell it out, but perhaps you are (I'm sure as nicely as you can) repeatedly trying to drum the basic concepts into her head. It may be that your partner has a different way of thinking than you do, and a professional guide may be able to explain things in a way that you cannot, but one that will be easier for your partner to "understand" and physically incorporate. It also may be that she's picking up on your vibe, and it's making her more nervous about dropping you - a viscious circle. Fortunately, one that also might be broken by the sort of intervention I mentioned above. If she comes back with the confidence of knowing that now she "understands", and can demonstrate her ability, you'll feel better, and then she'll feel better, too. If climbing with her is really important to both of you, it could be money well spent. GO
Hell, yes. The hammer has found the head of the nail. Good call.
T
|
|
|
|
|
kalcario
Mar 8, 2003, 5:17 AM
Post #25 of 72
(9628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 1601
|
The grigri is by far the best belay device, if wifey-poo is'nt going to be doing multi pitch routes with you she never needs to learn how to use anything else, if she letsgo of the rope belaying you on top rope with an ATC she drops you and then you land on top of her, if she lets go of the grigri nothing happens. Gym instructor and 30 year climbing veteran talking here
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Mar 8, 2003, 5:27 AM
Post #26 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: The grigri is by far the best belay device...
Hmm. That, then, would explain my recent groundfall. The belayer was using a gri-gri. Thank goodness for floor padding; it only hurt to sit down for a couple of days, and my lower back feels better already. I didn't even need an MRI. Whew! :roll:
Respectfully, kalcario, I strongly feel that newbies should learn on an ATC - there are lots from which to choose, from a silky-smooth Black Diamond to a reversible Trango Jaws or new ATC-XP if you're belaying a larger person. Gri-gris can engender bad habits, and can be confusing to a newbie. My arse and back feel the same way.
Tai
|
|
|
|
|
moabbeth
Mar 8, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #27 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 1786
|
Gotta go with kman and taino....gri-gri's for beginners tend instill laziness and bad habits. Learning on an atc seems the most responsible way to insure the guy's safety over the long run. Gri-Gri's are NOT idiotproof and so many people think they are. And then accidents happen. I see more near-accidents occur by newbie belayers with grigri's than atc's. Grigri's "seem" safer to new climbers and thus can cause a lack of attention to the belay...cause hey, if someone falls the grigri will take care of it.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 8, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #28 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
Second what Crack lover said--
seek professional help. People learn in different ways. Good instructors will present information in a variety of ways until they find a way to bring the student to clear understanding. The student will never have fully "snatched the pebble from the masters hand" until they themselves have lost the pebble to their own student.
Respectfully disagree with the "30 year veteran and instructor" troll.
a gri is neither more nor less safe than any other belay device. I even saw Merry Braun thread one backwards once. Sound belay technique and clarity of focus is infinitely more important than what type of device is used.
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 8, 2003, 6:40 AM
Post #29 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer any usable feedback!
I am amazed how many responses popped up since I have been out for the evening...
Anyway, to clarify a bit. Yes, I am a beginner climber but I fully understand the principals of belaying technique and am quite comfortable with it. On the other hand, I am not teaching my wife how to belay. I am just trying to reinforce what she has been taught already by qualified instructors. Funny how so many people want to assume the worst!
The best advice I have seen is for us to take a refresher together so she will not feel like I am bashing her. Whoever suggested that is either a genius or is married, obviously! :D
|
|
|
|
|
arlen
Mar 8, 2003, 6:42 AM
Post #30 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 3, 2001
Posts: 127
|
I used to climb with a guy who didn't fully trust belayers. He was always grabbing the belay end of the rope during a fall, during lowering, etc. It's no fun belaying someone who doesn't trust the system to work. And that can't be good for a marriage relationship.
Here's an idea: "accidently" pitch off the wall at or around the boulder line. If she catches you, maybe you should concentrate more on climbing and less on falling. If she drops you, talk about getting more instruction and a backup belayer for a couple weeks.
Being liable to freeze up probably means a grigri is a bad idea--it needs some falling force to work. If she panics with a tight grip on the climber end, she could lose some palm surface while you hit the deck. IMHO the grigri doesn't do much for a belayer--it's mainly a device to boost climber confidence.
|
|
|
|
|
duskerhu
Mar 8, 2003, 6:53 AM
Post #31 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 1023
|
Obviously DIVORCE is the only real answer here...
:lol: Sorry, I just had to add a little funny... :lol: The GriGri/NO GriGri thing was getting a little intense there.
I agree with the "No GriGri's for begginers" folks in this thread; they are not fool proof.
Another option besides the ones mentioned above is to find another "couple" and kind of partner up with them at the gym. That way, you'll have someone who can back-up your wifes belay while you're climbing. They can also give your wife pointers on the belay technique so you can climb with your mind on the wall. Then, you can send the "wives" off to climb together for a while and you "guys" can work some harder stuff together for a bit.
As far as your wife not getting to the gym enough, take the kids with and let them climb or bring a couple toys and they can play while you two are climbing. Of course you won't get as much quality climbing time in because you'll have to entertain the kids at times but hey, that's what family is all about!
Also along these lines is to send your wife to the gym while you stay home with the kids (I know, it sounds heinous but, ???). That way she gets a little "girl" time and climbing time too.
Anyway, let us know how it goes.
Live Free!
Play Hard!
Climb On!
duskerhu
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 8, 2003, 7:04 AM
Post #32 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
Unfortunately the kids are 5, 3, and just started walking 1. Translation: NO quality climbing.
I have offered to let my wife go to the gym anytime by herself but she has no interest. She only wants to climb with me (ain't that sweet!). Besides, she can go boulder all day and that won't do a thing for her rope skills.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Mar 8, 2003, 4:30 PM
Post #33 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
I think this thread wins the interesting topic of the week award.
In reply to: Unfortunately the kids are 5, 3, and just started walking 1. Translation: NO quality climbing.
Too bad. The rest of duskerhu's suggestions were good, though.
In reply to: I have offered to let my wife go to the gym anytime by herself but she has no interest. She only wants to climb with me (ain't that sweet!). Besides, she can go boulder all day and that won't do a thing for her rope skills.
It is sweet. It also raises a red flag for me.
Let me tell you a little story. This is the story about the one time I came closest to serious injury while climbing.
J-tree last year. Trashcan rock. The couple next to me was a military boy ~19y.o. and his girlfriend. You've all seen the type - he likes climbing, she likes him - that's the only reason she's out here tied in. When I arrive he's preparing to belay her from the top of the climb, and at the same time trying to shout down instructions for her to tie in - she's forgotten how to tie the knot, and he's feels he can explain it from up there. Instead, she is just getting more and more confused. I graciously ask if she'd like a hand, and she accepts.
Okay, so it's a typical 5.7 j-tree climb - a combination of smearing on slabs and jams in flaring cracks, and her sneakers just aren't cutting it. She's having a miserable time, and he's trying to convince her that she isn't. Bad scene.
Fast forward 30 minutes... I've led my climb, and I'm just scrambling over the top looking for something to anchor into. Meanwhile, she's now anchored at the top, belaying him up on the next climb over. He falls, and her belay fails. He slips/backpedals the 15-20 feet back down the slab and slams into my belayer, knocking him over. Only luck kept my belayer from pulling me off the top - and had he done so, it's very unlikely he would have stopped me before I cratered.
My point is this: I don't know you and your wife, but maybe, just maybe, she's not really that interested in climbing per-se, but she sees it as an opportunity to leave the kids for a night and go out and have fun with you. In my experience, when folks don't really care about climbing, you can teach them over and over again, and it won't really sink in... because they don't really care. I can tell that you love climbing, but maybe you should experiment with other things you and your wife can share on the few kid-free nights available.
Just a thought - I'm perfectly aware that I could be way off base.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 8, 2003, 5:33 PM
Post #34 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
She really IS the one who wanted to get into it. I was actually pretty nervous about trying it out. She just doesn't get into stuff the way I do. I go headfirst into whatever I persue until I am proficient, she is much more casual about things. Just last night she sees me reading a climbing bok and perusing RC.com and she makes a comment like "Here we go again". See, I have serious gear l lust. I have a house full of guitars and recording equipment, snowboard gear, fly fishing stuff up the wazoo, etc..
The mini wall that is sprouting off of the door jam of the extra bedroom has her reeeaallly wondering about this climbing stuff! :)
The big difference is this is the first persuit that SHE has initiated and I don't want to lose the opportunity to be able to do it with her. She brought up this whole thing about being uncomfortable with belaying last night also. Apparently, the last time we were at a gym (not our regular gym), the manager was sort of harrasing her about her lack of proper technique. I asked if he had offered to demonstrate the right way or at least explain it better, she said no, he was more or less just putting her down and making her feel bad. Apparently this intimidated her so much that what little skill I know she does have went out the window at that time. (hence, almost dropping my niece)
I suggested that we have the guy at our regular gym give us a review together and she liked that idea, he is very helpful and mellow, a good combination for her.
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Mar 8, 2003, 5:37 PM
Post #35 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
I often climb with my wife. I will only let her belay me with a Gri Gri. Gri Gris are not fool proof as echo'd earlier, however they are the best option if you outweigh your belayer and/or you are a little skethcy about their technique.
My suggestion would be have her belay you on a few slab climbs and take some purposefull falls where you warn her in advance. Just get a foot or two above the bolt and let your self slide down.
She'll get the hang of it.
|
|
|
|
|
norcalrockdoc
Mar 8, 2003, 5:42 PM
Post #36 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2003
Posts: 7
|
I have experienced the exact same. In the gym, early on, my wife dropped me from the chains to the ground. Just didn't quite understand the "gravity" of the situation back then. What helped was having someone else coach her as she belayed me in the gym. Then I practiced with her by going up and intentionally jumping off the wall, so whe could practice catching me at different heights. I do now usually have her use a grigri, but I do not think that someone should use one of those, without first learning to belay with a conventional device. Grigris can make sloppy belayers. Besides, grigris can be challenging as well when you need to get rope out quickly to make a clip. If they don't know how to belay, it becomes a big problem. Basically, some simple instruction/coaching and then practicing catching falls I think is the key.
|
|
|
|
|
talonsofsteel
Mar 8, 2003, 5:44 PM
Post #37 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 64
|
dude, give her time. rome wasn't built in a day. encourage her or she won't climb with you
|
|
|
|
|
quickclips
Mar 8, 2003, 5:55 PM
Post #38 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2002
Posts: 477
|
I had a similar problem (exgirlfriend not wife). I'd catch her messing up and when she came to climb with me, so I'd tell her, and have my other partner help her out. But eventually I desided I'd go up 10 feet and take a fall. Well she didn't catch me, and decided she needed to relearn how to belay. She's been really good ever since.
|
|
|
|
|
meataxe
Mar 8, 2003, 6:03 PM
Post #39 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1162
|
It can really be difficult for a couple to learn new activities. Usually, the man gets really focussed and gung-ho (sounds like your case), although it can be the other way around. I'm pretty much that way. It's easy to overwelm your partner.
However, I've seen enough disasters in the making to shy away from teaching my SO. The best place to see this is at a ski hill... The boyfriend is a good snowboarder (or thinks he is), and offers to teach his girlfriend. He knows snowboarding, but doesn't know how to teach. They fight...
She started because she was excited about snowboarding and wanted to enjoy it with her boyfriend. Now she hates snowboarding and probably ends up with the same feelings for her boyfriend.
With snowboarding, the disaster is likely to be in the relationship. In climbing it could be a lot worse.
I'd recommend getting an expert teacher to help out. If your wife wants to learn (sounds like this is true), then with enough practice, she can learn instinctively what to do.
It may take a while... I've noticed some people don't have the same physical instincts--usually people who did not grow up in an active or outdoor environment have trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
davidji
Mar 9, 2003, 1:32 AM
Post #40 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2003
Posts: 1776
|
Tell her to imagine her brake hand is welded shut.
That wont cure all belaying ills, but it can help.
|
|
|
|
|
moeman
Mar 9, 2003, 1:47 AM
Post #41 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2002
Posts: 1417
|
How hard is it to belay? I mean really, the first time I belayed, I had only watched people belay- no one had told me how to belay- I just figured it out on my own. Oh, and I hadn't seen someone belay in over a year. And I was a fine belayer. It just isn't that difficult to do.
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 9, 2003, 2:04 AM
Post #42 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
davidji, good point
moeman, I guess my wife is just really stupid or you are especially cool. rock on dood! :roll:
|
|
|
|
|
ronamick
Mar 9, 2003, 2:51 AM
Post #43 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 28, 2002
Posts: 476
|
Belaying is far too important to be concerned with sensetivity. Any improper technique must be poinetd out and corrected on the spot, with a reminder that the person that she is belaying has entrusted her with no less than their life.
If she can't learn, or refuses to take it seriously, you can't let her belay, plain and simple. Don't forget what you are doing here. Climbing is a very dangerous activity which can only be undertaken with the appropriate training, gear, and most importantly, fully competent and committed partners!
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Mar 9, 2003, 3:06 AM
Post #44 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
In reply to: davidji, good point moeman, I guess my wife is just really stupid or you are especially cool. rock on dood! :roll:
Why not let your wife read this thread ?? that should illuminate the situation.
(Hmmn gets cold in Alaska in the winter,doesn't it??)
:lol:
You don't want to alienate her,but couldn't you just try a honest discussion of your concerns.
Communication is the best remedy to this problem.Why are you so afraid to speak to her about this?? :roll:
(This is your life, hope your life insurance is up to date)
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 9, 2003, 7:54 AM
Post #45 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: Belaying is far too important to be concerned with sensetivity. Any improper technique must be poinetd out and corrected on the spot, with a reminder that the person that she is belaying has entrusted her with no less than their life.
Methinks re-reading this thread that this thread is as much about relationships as about belaying. Having taught my daughter to belay when she was 9 years old, I can fully relate to the feeling of not trusting one's belayer.
Our first multi-pitch climbs together, I truly felt that I was soloing, but with the extra responsibility of my daughter's life as well.
Time and repetition, and practice, practice, practice can increase your belayers skills, confidence and competence.
Sensitivity to your partner's feelings, goals, skills, and commitment is as much a part of climbing as it is a part of relationships. At least in my life. While I fully endorse the importance of the belay in climbing safety, ignorance of your own mental state or your partner's mental state before a big climb can lead to accidents just as fatal as any failure of the belay chain.
With the proper mental state, it is possible to climb safely without a belay. Astroman in Yosemite has been climbed unroped. Knowledge of one's limits, and staying within those limits, is just as important as belay technique. While few of us will ever climb Astroman, let alone unroped, the same principles apply to our climbing, regardless of skill level.
I submit that distraction and lack of focus, whether due to intimidation (following a berating from a gym manager due to faulty belay technique) or due to thoughts of that beer in the mountain room bar, is by far the most pervasive danger in climbing.
Climber49er: Some good advice has been offered in this thread. I encourage both of you to learn as much as you can about belaying, anchoring and safety systems. Lots of good sources out there, such as John Long's "Climbing Anchors" and "More Climbing Anchors."
But no book can take the place of qualified, competent instruction in a caring environment.
After you both are way solid in your belay skills, and maybe are taking your climbing into more adventurous settings, outdoors or multipitch, I recommend that you consider taking a self-rescue class, and practice the skills taught there. After 30 years of climbing I took such a class, with my partner (at her urging) and learned some things that change how I approach climbing. Even old dogs like me can learn new tricks.
And knowledge is one of the lightest, most valuable things you can take on a climb.
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Mar 9, 2003, 12:38 PM
Post #46 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
How often do you guys climb? It takes some people a really long time to learn proper belaying. I used to teach a beginners climbing course for adults at a YMCA. The class ran for 1 hour per week for 6 weeks, and typically just focused on proper belaying/tying-in, unless the climbers advanced past that stage. I had more than a few students that ended up taking the class a second time, because they did not feel comfortable with belaying even after 6 weeks. I would have failed the unsafe ones anyway, but they often saved me the effort by voluntarily deciding to repeat the class.
Anyway, I think its possible to teach your wife proper technique with enough practice. Try to have a third person around (whether at the gym or crag) to watch her. It makes more sense than you trying to look over your back and inspect her technique. The extra person can watch her constantly and correct her when she messes up. Plus, they can back up the belay, further increasing your safetly and confidence while you climb.
|
|
|
|
|
bonesz
Mar 9, 2003, 1:24 PM
Post #47 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 16, 2002
Posts: 284
|
I second the motion on the gri-gri, one way to get lots of practice is to set up a pully system with weight on the climbing side of the rope, and actually have her pull the weight up and lock off. She would also get better lowering skills, thus saving you high anxiety.
It doesn't have to be high or elaborate, maybe a block of wood with a pully up on a wall ?
|
|
|
|
|
trillium
Mar 9, 2003, 3:14 PM
Post #48 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2001
Posts: 172
|
Hook a weight onto the climbing end of the rope and have her practise belaying that. You can hoist it up and drop it so that she gets the idea of a climber falling. Be patient with her and she probably will get it. Using a gri-gri could help, but she won't get the full idea of belaying and catching the climber. Try the weight thing.
|
|
|
|
|
valygrl
Mar 9, 2003, 3:26 PM
Post #49 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2002
Posts: 247
|
Apologies in advance if any of this is a repeat, I didn't read all the posts (slow home internet connection).
There are a few things that could be going on, and probably a combination is what is at work.
1) She doesn't understand the system. Great ideas- professional help, backup belay w/coaching, someone else coaching her - I know from exerience ( :oops: ) that you can't always learn from your SO, relationship crap can get in the way.
2) Lack of practice. Remember when you learned how to drive, and you would just screw up sometimes, or take forever to make little decisions? And now you can drive, drink coffee, talk on the phone, and check out the hotties in the cars around you, all at the same time. You have to "bulletproof" the learning by doing it a lot, until it becomes automatic. She needs practice time. This is tricky, as you could get hurt during the practice. Don't know the solution.
3) Attention span. Some people can't concentrate. I like these people to have grigri's because once they are bulletproof with the technique, you can just yell at them to pull up or let out slack, and the grigri self-lock adds another element of protection.
#3 is the most difficult in a SO situation, I have found. I have dated a couple guys who had attention span problems, and I never felt 100% comfortable w/their belays. I would just check them at cruxes, and say something to wake them up if necessary. #1 and #2 can be overcome with training and patience.
Cheers, and off to the crag!
Anna
|
|
|
|
|
lazide
Mar 9, 2003, 3:39 PM
Post #50 of 72
(8648 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 225
|
Another factor - some people just should not be belaying. I strongly disagree with those that make statements about those people that you have to yell at to take in slack, etc. It is one thing to need small adjustments (need a little slack, take in a little, etc) - but if you NEED to say something, or deck, you really need to start evaluating why you are having that person belay you in the first place.
a gri-gri cannot solve an unsafe lack of attention to the problem at hand
Some people just cannot stay focused, even when peoples lives are in their hands. THIS IS A VERY BAD THING.
Doesn't mean your wife is this way - not nearly enough information in this thread to make a decision like that. Just keep in mind that she should only be belaying if she is safe and confident. Not everyone has this capability.
Good luck!
|
|
|
|
|
bigdrop
Mar 9, 2003, 4:19 PM
Post #51 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 20, 2002
Posts: 112
|
In reply to: How hard is it to belay? I mean really, the first time I belayed, I had only watched people belay- no one had told me how to belay- I just figured it out on my own. Oh, and I hadn't seen someone belay in over a year. And I was a fine belayer. It just isn't that difficult to do.
I officially nominate you as ASSHOLE OF THE WEEK! But I’m sure you will be able to overcome this slandering with your super powers. You must be perfect at everything!! :roll:
~jc
|
|
|
|
|
bigdrop
Mar 9, 2003, 4:21 PM
Post #52 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 20, 2002
Posts: 112
|
I’m a professional certified ski instructor and as such I have learned a few things that I would like to share.
Everyone learns at different paces, but it’s NOT because some people are more capable then others, it’s because people learn differently and often the presentation of material is better suited to some then others.
Instructional material needs to be presented in such a way that people can understand it and sometimes that may mean presenting it differently to everyone one in the group, but so be it! (Unfortunately so many instructors with inferior training and little experience don’t appreciate this)
Some people are very visual, they learn best by watching someone else then trying to repeat.
Some people are very verbal learners and require clear verbal instructions.
Some people are people are poor observers (visually and verbally) and require written instruction perhaps with illustration; something that they can go over and over until it registers.
Some people (I place myself in this category) are very bad at remembering detail. So we are better suited to learning WHY we do something rather then WHEN we do something.
Of course there are many more types of learners and people can be any combination of them but really my point is simply this; your wife may not be very proficient at belaying right now BUT SHE CAN BE! All she needs is a presentation better suited to her learning style!
With that said... DON’T TEACH HER YOURSELF… DON’T! I can give you so many reason why you shouldn’t but most of all; the last thing she needs right now is an inferiority complex. Instead suggest it as a peer. “Hey LETS take a lesson TOGEATHER and improve OUR technique”. And don’t forget, you are paying good money for an instruction therefore you deserve good instruction! If you don’t understand the way the material is being presented, ask for a different approach, if that doesn’t work ask for a different instructor.
Your wife has the ability! Be supportive and you will enjoy many years of climbing partnership!
Cheers,
!jc
feel free to PM me.
|
|
|
|
|
charley
Mar 9, 2003, 9:21 PM
Post #53 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627
|
My wife
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 10, 2003, 5:38 AM
Post #54 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
I can't believe the number of replies -- especially from experienced climbers -- that are tolerant of this situation. Ron Amick finally said something I agree with. The tolerance level for a belayer taking her hand off the brake side of the rope should be zero. This belayer should not be belaying. Period. At least until she can do so competently.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 10, 2003, 7:56 AM
Post #55 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: I can't believe the number of replies -- especially from experienced climbers -- that are tolerant of this situation. Ron Amick finally said something I agree with. The tolerance level for a belayer taking her hand off the brake side of the rope should be zero. This belayer should not be belaying. Period. At least until she can do so competently. -Jay
Since this is apparently in reference to my posts on this thread, let me state something clearly: I do not believe that it is appropriate for a belayer to take his or her brake hand off the rope.
Let me state something else clearly: Lack of sensitivity in a relationship is a recipe for disaster.
adios.
|
|
|
|
|
texastechclimber
Mar 10, 2003, 10:45 AM
Post #56 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 83
|
I would vote for using a grigri. Everybody that has a problem with them says that they teach lazyness on the belays part. Well thats easy to solve, dont teach lazyness, teach it properly and dont except lazyness from any belayer even if they are an expert.
|
|
|
|
|
rocmonkey
Mar 10, 2003, 12:11 PM
Post #57 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2001
Posts: 292
|
That is a tough one.
It is vital that you firstly...
...Trust your gear :!:
and secondly...
...Trust your partner :!:
If you don't have those two trusts, you can forget about moving forward (or upward in this case).
I suggest you do what I did. . .
My partner, when I started climbing, weighed exactly half my weight. I weighed 110 kg's (220 pounds). He weighed 55 kg's (110 pounds) and I was a little hesitant to trust the guy while I was climbing.
I used to grab onto hold and basically downclimbed while he was lowering me after a climb.
Then I decided to train him according to my needs. I got another climber to join us and had my buddy belay while I looked on, checked his methods, en coached him.
After just a few of these sessions I was quite at ease with him on the other en of the rope. Yes, he came flying up the wall a few times when trying to lower me, but the initial distrust turned into laughs.
Work with your wife, train her, make her feel comfortable while belaying someone else first. Then you will see that as soon as she feels trusted she will relax thus lessening the chances of her losing concentration.
But work with her. I think it is amazing that the love of your life can aslo be your climbing buddy.
And remember, as in my case, weight difference does not matter if she knows what she is doing.
Size - in this case - does NOT matter! :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
papaswize
Mar 10, 2003, 1:00 PM
Post #58 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2003
Posts: 109
|
I agree with cracklover. But you have to be there with her while she's getting instruction. It may seem like a waste of time to you (you could be climbing instead), but it will be time well spent. She'd appreciate the fact that you are interested in her well being as well as your own (I hope).
|
|
|
|
|
flynnypek
Mar 10, 2003, 2:13 PM
Post #59 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2002
Posts: 309
|
.... I haven't read all the thread because it seems like there are different opinions.
I can tell you my experience.... when I started climbing, my girlfriend didn't know anything about it.
I had taken some classes in college but I didn't remember much.
She is a little bit stubburn so, she didn't want anybody else to teach her but me...
What did I do? well... I invited over one of my nephews to climb with us and have her belay him.
While she was belaying I would be teaching her the proper way of moving her hands until she finally got it.
... and now that she is gaining some more experience, she wants to take a class :roll:
... anyways that's great with me because we are going to learn more! :D
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 10, 2003, 6:50 PM
Post #60 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
Thanks everyone!
My wife and I have talked about this a bit over the last day or two. We came to this conclusion. We are going to get a lesson or two together. NO grigri, she wants to learn to do things "right" or not all. Not that a grigri isn't a viable option, but she wants to learn the skill of belaying AND understand the principals involved. I will be taking her to the gym more and letting her catch some low-risk falls and take some of her own so she can better feel the forces involved in a real fall. I think part of her problem is that she doesn't really know what to expect and that is keeping her on edge.
She fully understands the seriousness of improper technique, thats why she was getting so flustered in the first place.
In case she is lacking attention she is just going to take some Rytalin. That should fix things up good! :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
bagotricks
Mar 10, 2003, 7:16 PM
Post #61 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 11
|
In reply to: Yup, I mostly do boulder, a few times a week because the wife can only get away from the kids once or twice a month.
1. You stay home with the kids
2. "The wife" goes to the gym/crag on her own, without you, and takes some one-on-one lessons with an instructor
3. She learns proper technique without you and your stress and doubt breathing down her neck
4. Hopefully she'll come out of it a better belayer; in any case, she'll probably be thankful for a third time away from the kids within one month.
Just wondering, why do you have free time to go climbing more often than she does?
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Mar 10, 2003, 7:27 PM
Post #62 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
I pretend to have my own business, therefore I can goof off all day. Too bad it makes my wallet so thin living like this! :lol:
Besides, I have already explained: taking the kids to the gym isn't an option and she dosn't want to go by herself or with anyone else yet.
I am not sure how some of you got the idea that I am pressuring her or breathing down her neck... Not all. That was the jerky gym manager.
I am officialy tired of this thread. LOTS of good suggestions and waaaay to many "didn't bother to read the thread know it alls"
|
|
|
|
|
gretchino
Mar 12, 2003, 11:39 PM
Post #63 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 393
|
There are some really good posts in here and I pretty much just telling you the same thing...
Take a lesson together, but put her on a grigri for a while. When I was learning to belay with my boyfriend it was a really good learning tool. I actually prefer to belay with a grigri now...it's peace of mind for my boyfirend and myself!
Have fun and be safe!! Two very important remembrances! :D
|
|
|
|
|
triptothesun
Mar 31, 2003, 11:56 PM
Post #64 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2003
Posts: 185
|
I go for the grigri solution!
T! :)
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 1, 2003, 12:04 AM
Post #65 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I go for the grigri solution!
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
corpse
Apr 1, 2003, 1:16 PM
Post #66 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2003
Posts: 822
|
Why is there no grigri solution?? My 9yr old daughter has been belaying me on a grigri for hte last 6 months or so, and I trust her more than an adult belayer I had once.. At least I KNOW I don't have to remind her to keep her hand on the brake..
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Apr 1, 2003, 2:18 PM
Post #67 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
I agree with getting a Grigri. Just make sure she learns how to lower you correctly with it!
|
|
|
|
|
paulv7
Apr 1, 2003, 4:02 PM
Post #68 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2003
Posts: 98
|
gri-gri's aren't 100%. All of the dropping accidents at the gym I climb at happened with people using gri-gri's. To many people think these things are full-proof and then don't pay the attention they should to the climber.
I think gri-gri's are cool and do have some good uses. But throwing someone who is new to climbing or is having issues belaying into using a gri-gri will teach them bad habits. I wouldn't recommend the "quick fix" of a gri-gri to any climber when teaching proper technique will get them much farther.
You made a good choice. Get someone to show her the right ways to do it. If she wants to use a gri-gri after she knows the ends and outs of using an ATC then go for it, but don't use it as a fix all.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 2, 2003, 1:51 AM
Post #69 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Why is there no grigri solution??
Because grigris are not intended to substitute for competent belaying. It must say this all over Petzl's technical literature.
In reply to: My 9yr old daughter has been belaying me on a grigri for hte last 6 months or so, and I trust her more than an adult belayer I had once.. At least I KNOW I don't have to remind her to keep her hand on the brake..
Her hand belongs on the brake side of the rope whether she is using a grigri or not. I see several grigri accidents a year. Except when the grigri had been threaded backwards, the accidents would all have been prevented if the belayer had had his hand on the brake side of the rope.
Grigris will not always stop a fall automatically. Thin, dry-treated, or new ropes; worn devices; slabby falls; light climbers; interference with the cam by the rope or the wall; or operator error can cause the grigri not to lock up. With respect to operator error, the two most common errors are freezing up and holding the cam open with the brake hand, and holding the wrong side of the rope with the brake hand. The latter error slows the fall down just enough to prevent the grigri from locking. Neither type of operator error can occur if the brake hand is on the brake side of the rope where it belongs.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
corpse
Apr 2, 2003, 2:46 AM
Post #70 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 17, 2003
Posts: 822
|
My point with the grigri certainly IS NOT a means to bypass proper belaying technique..
Belay technique is very important - I always test my daughter.. I once even hooked the grigri up backwards and she caught it, she catches when I don't lock the biner - and likewise, she even has tested me unknowingly (I think it has turned in a safety-check game, to see if we can bust the other failing to do something)..
Anyways... The point I was trying to make about hte grigri, is for the person that is up in the air, it does offer some extra reassurance that in the event of a fall, it's less likely he'll be dropped and injured...
|
|
|
|
|
dontfall
Apr 3, 2003, 7:13 PM
Post #71 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 31, 2003
Posts: 2798
|
If your not cool with having your wife belaying you, find someone and be willing to spend the money so she can learn. It's your life that can sometimes be on the line if your high enough. Make sure your wife has an anchor so if you fall, she won't come up and great you half way. Just give her some time and she'll be fine.
-chris-
|
|
|
|
|
climber49er
Apr 3, 2003, 7:23 PM
Post #72 of 72
(8470 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 8, 2003
Posts: 1404
|
This thread is over folks. Look up the thread "I don't trust... update" to see the happy ending to this story. :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
