|
jt512
Mar 26, 2003, 4:07 AM
Post #26 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: And, ethics and style have nothing to do with sport climbing. Before you bash me for saying this--this statement is paraphrased from comments made by kalcario and jt512, who are sport climbers.
Well, I suspect that you're getting a little creative with that paraphrasing, or at least taking comments out of context. Sport climbing certainly has its style and ethics standards.
In spite of some high-profile examples of chipping, this practice is still, I'd say, considered unethical -- at least if the rock isn't junk to begin with. If it is then the distinction between cleaning and chipping blurs.
And style certainly is important in sport climbing. The goal of sport climbing is an onsight, flash or redpoint ascent. Anything else is either a failure or a practice run. This doesn't differ much from trad, as far as I can tell.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 26, 2003, 4:10 AM
Post #27 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: its probably cause sport climbing resembles indoor rockclimbing so much. Bolts every 4 feet, preplaced draws, stick clipping...
Apparently, you're not familiar with either sport or gym climbing, since outdoors the bolts are ususally a lot further apart than 4 feet, and I've yet to see anybody stick clip in a gym.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
triznut
Mar 26, 2003, 4:20 AM
Post #28 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 26, 2000
Posts: 96
|
In reply to: boldering, trad, sport blah blah blah...it is all climbing. the difference stems from what each person takes and gives to it. that is the beauty of the sport, it will always challenge you and keep you guessing.
Couldn't of said it better myself..........
|
|
|
|
|
redzit
Mar 26, 2003, 5:45 AM
Post #29 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 195
|
Why is it people are consumed by this difference between types of climbing. Just because you don't take part in one style does not mean it is of lesser value. If anything, those people who do hold them selves above someone because of thier climbing style, or simply do not think much good about any climbing style, should be the subject of pitty from the rest of us, as that person has not had the wonderful experiance the rest of us get from taking part in different ways of climbing.
And the entire bolting issue, is not an issue of Sport climbers against Trad climbings. It's about greedy people, on either side, and respect (or lack there of) of another person and their prefered climbing style. it is about the individual.
I personally have never gone sport climbing, but i would love to try it. It looks a little more meditative may be.
anyways
Have fun everybody!
Kev
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 26, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #30 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: In reply to: And, ethics and style have nothing to do with sport climbing. Before you bash me for saying this--this statement is paraphrased from comments made by kalcario and jt512, who are sport climbers. Well, I suspect that you're getting a little creative with that paraphrasing, or at least taking comments out of context. Sport climbing certainly has its style and ethics standards. In spite of some high-profile examples of chipping, this practice is still, I'd say, considered unethical -- at least if the rock isn't junk to begin with. If it is then the distinction between cleaning and chipping blurs. And style certainly is important in sport climbing. The goal of sport climbing is an onsight, flash or redpoint ascent. Anything else is either a failure or a practice run. This doesn't differ much from trad, as far as I can tell. -Jay
Jay,
I am sorry if I included you in my post unfairly, I did not intend to. I know I quoted kalcario verbatim.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
flying_dutchman
Mar 26, 2003, 6:46 AM
Post #31 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
|
enough with these sport vs trad threads. They rate down at the bottom with chipping, shoe threads and the ongoing debate over blackdiamond cam superiority.
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Mar 26, 2003, 7:07 AM
Post #32 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
In reply to: enough with these sport vs trad threads. They rate down at the bottom with chipping, shoe threads and the ongoing debate over blackdiamond cam superiority.
I like to hear other's opinions,on this . It's important to understand how others see the world of climbing ,too :!: :!: :idea:
|
|
|
|
|
mother
Mar 26, 2003, 7:24 AM
Post #33 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2002
Posts: 12
|
climbing is not placing and hauling gear, rigging anchors, etc. - that is mortality.
while some like to f#@k w/ gear, others prefer to climb. to suggest that one is better than the other depends on what a person needs to believe .... such arguments are rather silly.
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Mar 26, 2003, 7:39 AM
Post #34 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
In the Olden Days, climbing was a means to an end: the Summit. But now, and especially for sport climbers, the climbing is an end unto itself. In fact, rap bolting has defiled the summit concept entirely.
The only way it can get worse is helio-rap-bolting: flying in to otherwise inaccessible summits (like a spire) and rap bolting.
Bolting has long been considered bad form, because better climbers with better gear in the future are expected to be able to go up "unclimbable" routes without them. So, rap bolting a face that could have otherwise been the site of a ground-up trad climb (even if the bolts had to be placed, on lead), "steals" the line from those who favor trad style FAs.
Bolting next to cracks, just so sport climbers don't have to use gear, is the absolute worst, and borders on depraved laziness.
One of the most obvious (and mostly natural) lines up El Capitan was drooled over for years before an ingenious, boltless solution to the "unclimbable" cracks was found. Charlie Porter and Hugh Burton machined special aluminum shim blocks, each with three different widths, and used them with pitons to climb the Excalibur. They even used them for the belays in the 7"+ cracks, instead of bolts. They only drilled for rivet ladders across a few blank sections. Most of the route was natural, and they used their minds, and not bolts, to go up the "unclimbable" cracks. Later, bolts were added for some of the belays. And there was even one pro bolt placed high on P9, right next to the perfect (but wide) crack there.
The indiscriminate use of bolts is like using an aluminum bat in baseball, or having 34 specialized clubs in your golf bag, or using an electric motorbike in the Tour de France. Any amount of technology can be used to overcome the difficulty that many believe to be an inherent part of the sport.
"Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it was easy, everybody would do it." - Jimmy Dugan, A League of Their Own
|
|
|
|
|
danskiz
Mar 26, 2003, 8:37 AM
Post #35 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 62
|
Well said.
I have nothing against bolting a line with no natural pro, but bolts right next to perfectly protectable cracks is just rediculous.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 26, 2003, 7:09 PM
Post #36 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In the Olden Days, climbing was a means to an end: the Summit. But now, and especially for sport climbers, the climbing is an end unto itself.
You say that like it's a bad thing. What you have stated is the very essence of sport climbing. It's about the movement, not the summit.
In reply to: Bolting has long been considered bad form...
Wrong. Bolting was once considered bad form.
In reply to: Bolting next to cracks, just so sport climbers don't have to use gear, is the absolute worst, and borders on depraved laziness.
Where the heck are all these bolted cracks everybody's complaining about. The only places I know of where bolting cracks is tolerated are dedicated sport climbing crags, where there are only a few cracks and many, many face climbs. The few cracks are bolted so that one doesn't have to bring a trad rack to an area that is 99% face routes. Someone please explain to me why this is unethical.
In reply to: One of the most obvious (and mostly natural) lines up El Capitan was drooled over for years before an ingenious...
And this has what to do with sport climbing?
In reply to: The indiscriminate use of bolts is like using an aluminum bat in baseball, or having 34 specialized clubs in your golf bag, or using an electric motorbike in the Tour de France. Any amount of technology can be used to overcome the difficulty that many believe to be an inherent part of the sport.
You're straying from the topic, which is why trad leaders (supposedly) have a problem with sport climbing. Most sport climbs would be entirely unprotectable without bolts. They wouldn't be bold trad leads in the usual sense; they would be free solos.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 26, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #37 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Jay,
I guess I included you in my statement above based on this reply you made to a post of mine in the "Sport Climbing" forum, regarding stick-clipping.
In reply to: I don't know, Curt. "Style" and sport-climbing don't mix all that well.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Mar 26, 2003, 7:38 PM
Post #38 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
Let me add some insight to clarify my previous post to this thread.
Here in the southeast we have a, to remain unaimed, crag with excellent TR, Trad, and sport climbs. The place is perfect for a beginner to initially learn gear on TR set ups, try some easy trad leads, and enjoy challenging sport leads. In the past few years bolts have been popping up in both squeeze sport jobs and on the top of TR routes. I asked one of the parties responsible for setting TR bolts on an otherwise natural / pro set up TR route. The reasoning was many climbers today don't come prepared with webbing, anchor set up knowledge or gear. They can't set up the climbs, or attempt to in a very unsafe manner. The TR bolts on the "beginner block" were added for their safety.
Just recently I was watching some climbers on the above mentioned beginner block. I heard the climber on the ground ask the climber up top if there were bolts for a specific TR line. The climber up top said he didn't see any. I yelled over asking if he had some webbing and gear, I was going to give him beta on a bomber TR set up for the line. He said no, they didn't have any. I discretely shook my head and walked the other direction. Furthermore, I see many beginners TR'ing directly through anchors. When you mention to them the reasons for extending the anchor, many of them look surprised and had no clue.
I have been trying to understand why there are so many climbers unknowing in rope work / anchor knowledge out there. My only thoughts so far are that in todays era you have allot of strong climbers coming out of gyms that have no idea on how to do anchor / rope work. You also have allot of climbers who are only exposed to sport climbing, which doesn't force them to learn anchor / rope work.
So I ask again, "What minimum knowledge / skill is required to be considered a Rock Climber?" I'm not referring to climbing, but "rock" climbing.
Again, I personally enjoy boldering, sport, and trad. I enjoy all aspects of climbing, whether it be the purity of a move, unlocking the protection / mechanics of a trad route, or pushing ones physical / mental limits while clipping bolts (that is when I'm not whining).
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
rrrADAM
Mar 26, 2003, 7:59 PM
Post #39 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17553
|
I don't see this... I do both and respect both as different but equal styles of climbing.
I like Trad better, but I still like to clip bolts.
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Mar 26, 2003, 9:56 PM
Post #40 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
This subject almost does not deserve a reply; but I just had to throw my two-cents in. Having climbed for over 30 years and at a fairly respectable standard and having seen climbing evolved over this time, I got a great chuckle out some of the holy-than-thou responses of the trad-climbers. To Curt: (please don't take this personal) I don't think it was sport climbers who bashed out cracks with pitons in Yosemite or added the the hundreds if not thousands rivet holes on El Cap. I don't think it was sport climbers who left tons and tons of trash at base camps in the great mountains of the world. I don't think sport climbers are dry-tooling and chipping their way up mixed-ice-routes around the world. I don't think it was a sport climber who chipped holds on El Cap (Ray Jardine and Jim Bridwell) and what about those ever expanding and bashed out cracks on the Fisher Towers. And what about those chipped or improved holds (ie; the Zone in the Gunks) on various cliffs and boulders around the US that were done prior to the sport climbing movement. Bad style and bad ethics have been around and in climbing for as long as I can remember: It didn't start with sport climbing and it won't end with it. So for all you trad-climbers that think you are of some higher climbing-species (not you Curt) come down off you high-horse and realize that trad-climbing has many "demons in the closet). Thanks, Bob
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Mar 26, 2003, 10:47 PM
Post #41 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: In reply to: In the Olden Days, climbing was a means to an end: the Summit. But now, and especially for sport climbers, the climbing is an end unto itself. You say that like it's a bad thing. What you have stated is the very essence of sport climbing. It's about the movement, not the summit. In reply to: Bolting has long been considered bad form... Wrong. Bolting was once considered bad form.
So were pitons. So were ropes (British Alpine Club). So was falling. So was a lot of things. Time moves on. Old people die.
By the way, David Brower, of Sierra Club fame, didn't have much issue with bolts on Ship Rock. Ya know, like 60 years ago. Just so we're getting our revisionist history all lined up.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
mesomorf
Mar 27, 2003, 2:46 AM
Post #42 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2002
Posts: 397
|
Y'know, dingus, you're right. Even Jim Erickson tainted. (Wonder how many youngsters even know what that means?)
One thing I'll say for rappel bolting. It opened up a lot of climbable rock.
|
|
|
|
|
crux_clipper
Mar 27, 2003, 3:09 AM
Post #43 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 14, 2001
Posts: 531
|
pfft, i say go and climb some rock, cos in the end, all forms of the sport essentially has you climbing on, well, rock, no matter the word that prefixes 'climbing' its all the same folks!
|
|
|
|
|
bobd1953
Mar 27, 2003, 4:31 AM
Post #44 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 3941
|
Jim Erickson has also been seen climbing in the gym in Boulder and also enjoying himself on the many fine new sport routes in Boulder Canyon.
|
|
|
|
|
alpinerockfiend
Mar 27, 2003, 4:56 AM
Post #45 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 598
|
In reply to: Here's a question I don't know the answer to, but a different spin on the above question. "Can non trad climbers be considered real Rock Climbers, or just Climbers" 2. Pure "sport" climbers who don't do anything else don't have to learn rope work and proper anchors beyond clipping bolts or extending TR bolts. They don't have to learn equalization, natural rigging, pro placement, etc. True they are climbing real rock, but not utilizing what the rock has to offer; it's like gym climbing outdoors. True it requires good climbing skills, but it doesn't require any rope / climbing equipment skills. 3. "Trad" climbing brings in a whole new element of using the resources the rock / nature gives you to protect the climb. Protecting traverses, using equalized gear, evaluating rock quality, how to set up bomber clean anchors / belay stations, etc. are all important skills. L.J.
You know, equalizing anchors, clipping bolts, and rope management have nothing to do with the actual climb itself. Just thought I'd let you know.
|
|
|
|
|
pywiak
Mar 27, 2003, 5:02 AM
Post #46 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 105
|
I respect myself, and I lead trad and sport and just about anything I can get on. I'm even into downclimbing.
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Mar 27, 2003, 5:20 AM
Post #47 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
In reply to: You know, equalizing anchors, clipping bolts, and rope management have nothing to do with the actual climb itself.
You missed the point of my question. I'm not referring to "Rock" Climbing as the strict act of grabbing and pulling on holds to get to the top, but the whole process of properly using gear / equipment. Many climbers today who learn / are introduced in the gyms and not on the rock seam to lack some of the basic "rock craft" training.
Sort of like learning math with a calculator instead of first learning the basics by hand. Or like how one should learn to machine by hand before attempting to draft something to be built or use CNC equipment. Often we need to learn the fundamental basics to fully appreciate the process / big picture. Rock Craft, so to speak, is an important aspect in the "Rock" climbing sport. With out "Rock Craft", are we really "Rock" Climbers, or just simply climbers.
Finally often setting anchors has everything to do with the climb. Should I run it out, is this the last good placement I have, am I reaching a crux, or is it easy going the rest of the way. Protection on a climb can add a whole other element to the climb.
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
alpinerockfiend
Mar 27, 2003, 5:31 AM
Post #48 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 598
|
In reply to: In reply to: You know, equalizing anchors, clipping bolts, and rope management have nothing to do with the actual climb itself. Just thought I'd let you know. You missed the point of my question. I'm not referring to "Rock" Climbing as the strict act of grabbing and pulling on holds to get to the top, but the whole process of properly using gear / equipment. Many climbers today who learn / are introduced in the gyms and not on the rock seam to lack some of the basic "rock craft" training. Sort of like learning math with a calculator instead of learning the basics by hand first. Or like how one should learn how to machine by hand before attempting to draft something to be built or use CNC equipment. Often we need to learn the fundamental basics to fully appreciate the process / big picture. Rock Craft, so to speak, is an important aspect in the "Rock" climbing sport. With out "Rock Craft", are we really "Rock" Climbers, or just simple climbers. Finally often setting anchors has everything to do with the climb. Should I run it out, is this the last good placement I have, am I reaching a crux, or is it easy going. Protection on a climb can add a whole other element to the climb. L.J.
I most definitely agree with your analogy. It does bring up a unique emotion when I see pairs formed in the gym take their act outside without any knowledge of what they're doing. But I will still have to maintain my point that gear and its usage have no correlation to what climbing is all about for me. And as you say, "protection can add a whole other element to the climb". But what happens when you take away all protection besides your hands and feet? What happens there is rock climbing, I believe. Similar to the feeling one gets when moving between placements... Sorry, I'm not being very clear, it's late.
|
|
|
|
|
ljthawk
Mar 27, 2003, 5:34 AM
Post #49 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 245
|
I think I have a better understanding of what you meant. Thanks for clarifying.
L.J.
|
|
|
|
|
rokjunky
Mar 27, 2003, 6:47 AM
Post #50 of 101
(5160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 84
|
oh bullheet
|
|
|
|
|
|
