So that I don't have to read through 7 pages of crap to see, I will assume that no one has yet said the following:

WHY THE FVCK WEREN'T YOU WEARING YOUR HELMET?!?!?

Dude, you were climbing rocks. Okay, an ex-friend said he only wears it when aid climbing or where rocks can fall and hit him in the head. He can fall without hitting his head on the rocks he says.

Okay people, try this. Go up to some bricks, or a smooth tree trunk and just kind of bump your head into it quickly. It fvcking hurts huh? Now imagine only hitting it from 3 feet above the ground. Can you imagine the sheer pain that would cause. You could easily crack your <1cm thick skull from only 3 FEET! Imagine a 30 footer (not that rare of a fall when climbing if your last piece is only 10 feet below your feet) and hitting your head on the rocks.

Dude, you would fvcking die or be a vegetable.

Screw the gri-gri. They are great pieces of equipment that can make some types of climbing (aid) way faster and safer (cleaner hauls and belays hands free). Sure it sucks that you got dropped, but as said before, it works just like an ATC when turned the wrong way. The problem was your belayer's inattention too.

So before you go blaming your belay device, take a look at your own self. You see no helmet on your head. Well then dammit, put one on and go try not to die from a head wound please.

I'm glad to hear you are alright, just think before you climb.

TRADitionally yours,

Cali Dirtbag

I too have a grigri horror story. I will place this disclaimer first - It was not the fault of the grigri, but human error.

...

Going up was fine, I climbed 1/2 way up the wall and took a test fall to see how the device worked. It caught exactly as it should have, and I proceeded to the top. Once at the top, I gave my normal "thumbs up" and he gave me his "thumbs up" in return, and I leaned over the edge and placed my body weight on the rope. The next thing that I know, I am 3/4ths of the way down the wall, and I only got F!@# out of my mouth.

Once I was down at the bottom I asked him what the hell happened, and he said that he just released the lever and kept the other hand on the rope to "guide it". ... And from now one, no one is allowed to belay me on a grigri, for that very reason. People assume it is bomber, and that it will do all the work - which is very much not the case. :evil: :roll: :x :evil:

I'm in the Gri-Gri camp after an accident in Atlantis. My lead climber was clipping on the fifth bolt of giggling marlin 5.9 when he told me he was peeling off. He was 10' above the last bolt and when he hit the protection and my anchor jerked my hand came off the brake. I instinctively grabbed with my left hand which had no chance in hell of stopping the fall. My right hand went to the ATC I grabbed the entire device and was able to force the rope moving and great speed to an angle that provides the friction I needed to stop the fall. My partner never knew how close he came to decking until he saw my hands which were rope burned.

Seasoned climbers learn that pulling huge amounts of rope to clip at panic speed is a gumby move.

It will get you short roped on anything from a munter to a grigri and and all points in between.

Nothing like watching a paniced leader reach to his ankles and try to speed-yard the cord to a tip-toe height clip and getting that oh-so-popular jerk-jerkity-jerk-oh-god-why-can't-i-get-some-slack expression.

Let your belayer know its coming...

...then clip deliberately.

If you're clipping way above your head, theres a good chance that you're not in the right spot.

.
It sure must be hard to feed that gri gri out when you have a break hand on the rope and trying to pull and push it through, did you get a jerky belay where she had to hold the cam open and fuss with the rope?

I completely disagree. Pulling up rope fast saves energy. The faster you can clip, the less time and energy you spend hanging onto the clipping hold. Also, faster is safer, especially on the first or second clip, where you are in danger of grounding if you fall.

Not if your belayer knows what he/she is doing.

You're making excuses for poor belaying. It's the leader's butt on the line, so he gets to clip any way he wants to. The belayer's job is to facilitate the leader, not the other way around.

If you are placing gear (or draws) and your belayer can see you, you should not have to warn your belayer that you are about to clip. If the draws are preplaced, then it is often useful to alert your belayer before you clip, as he/she may have no other way of knowing that you are about to clip.

I have no idea what you mean by clipping "deliberately." If you mean slowing down your clip to accommodate your belayer, then you are wrong. Clipping any more slowly than necessary just wastes energy.

And there is a good chance you are in the "right" spot. It depends.

-Jay

-No, its a gumby move. The difference between a sport loop and getting short roped can be just a matter of a couple feet, most especially on the second clip. That second bolt can quite frequently be one of the most hazardous places on a climb. Don't panic grab for gobs of rope..slow down, get it right. The difference between a "fast clip" and a "deliberate one is a matter of a couple seconds. If you pull faster than your belayer can feed or bobble the clip, you've just screwed yourself.

I don't know how many times I've watched a clumsy leader try to panic clip...

-No, the leader doesn't get to clip anyway he wants.

Poor clipping technique is bad teamwork and bad teamwork is poor technique..on a big wall or a sport climb.-

-Theres no reason not to let them know. Especially on long routes even when still in sight of the belayer. On longer routes, the belayers view gets forshortened, they may not know if your on the clipping hold and in position for the clip.

-Slow down the clip to accomodate the team...

Frantic clipping forces your belayer to speed feed rope and increases your own chances of bobbling.

Both of those can get you in more trouble than taking the extra couple seconds to move with control. Practice it and it becomes obvious.-

-True, it depends on whether the route was properly bolted up or not.

Remember, pulling out tons of slack for a tippytoes clip above the head gets you a longer fall than moving up and clipping at your waist.

Well, we are in disagreement as to which is the gumby move. The faster you clip the less time you are in danger, especially at the 2nd bolt, where you can ground. If your belayer can't keep up with your fastest clip, then your belayer is literally not up to speed. There are routes where the best hold from which to clip is so bad that you must clip as fast as possible to avoid falling. And "a couple of seconds" difference between a fast and a deliberate clip? What are you talking about? You must climb trad! If you're not clipping overhead, you should be able to clip in way less than 2 seconds total. And, I can pull up rope really, really fast and not "bobble" a clip. Sounds like you need practice clipping.


I don't doubt that. I just wonder how many times you've watched a skilled sport climber clip at lightning speed.


Yes he does, and I've already explained why: it's his ass on the line. You can repeat that he doesn't all you want, but you still won't be right.


Poor clipping technique includes back clipping and fumbling with the rope. It does not include clipping quickly.


What do they think you're going to do when they see you grab the draw off your harness, use it to pick your nose?


That is just so wrong, and it doesn't really do the belayer any good in the longrun either. They'll never learn to keep up with a fast partner.


You keep using terms like "frantic" clipping and "panic" clipping. If you are competent, then you can clip fast without being frantic or panicky. And a skilled sport climber doesn't "bobble" a clip very often no matter how fast he clips.


I'm sorry, but when you are clipping from a marginal clipping hold, or when you're so pumped that you can barely maintain the hold, your risk of falling increases with every millisecond you spend clipping. The answer is not to slow down your clip in these situations; it's to speed it up. To succeed on routes like this you need to be able to clip fast and not "bobble" your clip, and you need a belayer who can keep up with you.


Wrong. It is not necessarily (or even usually) wrong to place the bolt with the intention that it be clipped overhead (see explanation below).


No it doesn't. The distance fallen is the same whether the clip is made at the waist or overhead. What is different is the starting point and ending point of the fall. If you clip overhead and fall you start falling from a lower position on the route and hence end up lower at the end of the fall; however, the total distance fallen is the same as if you clipped at your waist. Therefore, if there is nothing to hit on the way down, it is just as safe to clip overhead as it is at your waist (all else equal). The best place to clip from, therefore, is not the higher hold necessarily, but the one that requires the least energy to use.

-Jay

As to picking my nose with my draws, I find that they tend to painfully snag my nose hairs.

On the other hand, I project exactly zero routes without already having the draws in place...

As to where to clip from, efficiency certainly is the key. My thought wasn't what would happen if you fell after getting the clip. Who cares? It was what happens if you blow the clip reaching high..something far more likely to get you in the injuries and accidents section than just sagging on the rope. Pulling up lots of slack can be really dangerous low on the route. It can equal a ground fall, something that I've seen happen for just that very reason.

Seasoned climbers learn that pulling huge amounts of rope to clip at panic speed is a gumby move.

A rope in an ATC device goes from static to 100feet/sec in a fraction of a second.

Request for clarification from the more experienced of you out there. My first impulse is to say "Only if you're doing something badly wrong!", but the truth is, I've never caught a lead fall. Taken 'em, yes. Caught 'em, no. My then partner told me it was a much stronger pull than a TR fall, but there was certainly no rope zipping through the ATC, much less at 70mph.

Am I right in thinking that some slippage will occur, and that's fine, but rope running at any speed means you're doing something wrong?

It is widely erroneously believed that clipping high results in a longer fall than clipping at the waist. It doesn't. You fall the same distance, but since you started falling from a lower stance, you end up lower on the route. This is only important on low-angle routes, or near the ground or above an obstacle. Other than in these situations, you should feel equally "safe" clipping anywhere between the waist and arms length overhead. So, if the lower hold is good, go ahead an clip from it.

-Jay

Hmmmm... Always figured the fact that the rope goes up to the high clip, then back down to the tie in was the reason the fall was longer. Examples below, lets say 10' between bolts and the distance from my waist to head is 2' and distance from waist to hand is 4'. I'm ignoring rope strech on the fall length.

Clip at waist:

negligible extra rope to pull, fall 20 feet.

Clip at head ( waist to head 2' ):

pull rope, botch clip, fall 10' from bolt to bolt, plus 2' back down to harness, 12' rope out, fall

10' back to bolt + 12' for the rope that's out = 22'

...where did I go wrong?

Clip at head ( waist to head 2' ):

pull rope, botch clip, fall 10' from bolt to bolt, plus 2' back down to harness, 12' rope out, fall

10' back to bolt + 12' for the rope that's out = 22'

Clip at arms full extension ( 4' from waist to arm extension ):

pull rope botch clip, fall... 10' from bolt to bolt, plus 4' back down to harness, 14' of rope out,

10' back to bolt + 14' for the rope that's out = 24'