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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 8:13 PM
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*When she didn't get it, I skipped a couple bolts on a climb at Owen's and jumped which launched her in the air and I got the soft fall. Unfortunatelyshe interpreted this as meaning to "let go" with her brake hand as well as slightly jumping up when I weight the rope.*
So, obviously, the grigri locked up even when she let go or you would'nt be here, right?
*At Malibu a week later I went to the fourth bolt, came off at the crux and slightly sat down on the rope (two feet away from the bolt). My wife leaned up to soften what she thought might be a fall and let go of the brake hand. Several things happened:
1. Rope was only 9.7 which is smaller than the recommended 10mm;
2. Slight drag on the rope against the rock and wife standing up to soften the fall gave a slow pull on the grigri;
3. Not holding onto the brake hand;
4. Conclusion - I bounced on my back on the rocks below from 30-40 feet up. Luckily I walked away from the fall.*
30 to 40 feet of rope just ran through the grigri. No.
*In the end it was my fault that she interpreted wrongly about letting go. You should never let go of the brake hand. Now I know you think you can let go of the brake hand with a 10mm or higher rope, but we saw this same slippage occur with two different 10.2mm new ropes when testing them and if the brake hand was not there, decking was going to happen.*
Remember when you were filming Jason on Necessary Evil? That was a BD 9.4mm, that same rope is sitting in my closet, I've gone through 3 or 4 of them myself (they don't last very long). Anybody deck? No. J and Tif climb with 9.4's and grigris all the time and let go of the brake end when dogging. Boone and Wagner-same deal. Seen it.
*In order for the grigri to lock up, it has to have a shock to pull the lever all the way up. If it only slightly goes up, it doesn't lock. Period. Anyone that doesn't hold on with the brake hand even when someone is just hanging there depumping is an idiot and an accident waiting to happen. Don't believe me, have someone hanging, then when they are ready to go, you stand up and have them sit down again. If there isn't enough shock to the system to lift the lever into full locking position, the rope will gently slide out until something stops it - like the brake hand!*
What you are saying is, if you try really hard, you can make it malfunction. Agreed.
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brad
Apr 14, 2003, 8:40 PM
Post #27 of 198
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I was dropped about 25-30' in a gym with a grigri. The gym had fixed grigris on each rope, and both the rope and the grigri were pretty old. I had been downclimbing a lot that day, and my belayer thought I was going to downclimb this route. I dynod to the pipe at the top of the climb, swung there for a second or two, and dropped off on the rope. My belayer had unlocked the grigri so I would have slack when I downclimbed, and, well, I got slack in a hurry :D She paniced and just dropped the grigri (hands off with both hands, I watched her most of the way down), the grigri finally locked up, and with rope stretch my butt was about 4-5' off the deck. She was a lot more shook up by it than I was, so after she calmed down, we kept on climbing.
I learned a couple of lessons from that: I *always* tell my belayer when I am going to downclimb, and if I have been downclimbing, I always tell them I'm not downclimbing; I look at my belayer at the top of the climb before I drop on the rope; and if it's someone I haven't climbed with much, I verbally communicate with them. I also don't trust grigris without a brake hand on the rope.
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corey
Apr 14, 2003, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: *You jumped off a 3 story building and you're blaming your broken foot on not seeing the roots and rocks at the base? Must've been a slab fall, or not really 30', or you'd have been much worse off...* No slab, no sliding, just fall with a brush with a small branch, and from the stories I'm reading here, though I COULD have been worse off, it's not uncommon that I WASN'T. *Sounds like you're still making 'em.
I'm not exactly sure where you're drawing that conclusion from, based on what I wrote above. Perhaps you just like trying to belittle people, I don't know, I haven't been around here long enough to see. What I don't get is why you bothered to comment on what I wrote w/o adding to, or answering any of my questions pertaining to the grigri? You seem to be supporting the grigri, as was I, but for lack of prolonged exposure and experience with it, I was asking for more information. All you provided was a half-a$$ed insult. Why?
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drkodos
Apr 14, 2003, 10:26 PM
Post #29 of 198
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Re: Glazed ropes.
I want to stress that I'm not saying I think this is causal in this situation, only that it is a possibilty.
This IS a possibility with a rope that has seen MUCH heavy use, not a brand spanking new rope.....
Guiding haas taught me things about gear that normal use would not. Heavy professional use causes ropes to see tremendous wear. A combination of dirt, heat, and heavy use of the same device absolutely causes a glazing on the ropes as well as ERODES some of the metal on the cam in the Gri-Gri or even the aluminum of an ATC.
Overused Gri-Gri's lose some "bite" over periods of LONG use. But I mean LONG...not 20 routes a week use, more like 200 routes a week that a device may see in Gym.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 10:37 PM
Post #30 of 198
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*All you provided was a half-a$$ed insult. Why?*
Because it sounds like you're in denial about the cause of your injury. You broke your foot because you pulled the Jackass: The Movie stunt of jumping off a 30' high boulder, apparently without a crash pad because you are blaming the roots and rocks at the base that the pad would have covered.
Also, a clean 30' groundfall? I don't buy it. Go stand next to a 3 story building, or on a 4th floor balcony, and tell me you could jump from that high, no pads, and not at least shatter an ankle or 2. Post a picture of the boulder with you standing at the base. Till then I call BS.
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kalcario
Apr 14, 2003, 10:44 PM
Post #31 of 198
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* Overused Gri-Gri's lose some "bite" over periods of LONG use. But I mean LONG...not 20 routes a week use, more like 200 routes a week that a device may see in Gym.*
I know professional tree-trimmer guys who use thicker than 11mm static lines who actually wear out grigris, yet they say that grigris work better than anything else for the work they do, of course they're climbers also so they may be biased...
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 14, 2003, 11:59 PM
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hippie_dreams
she wasn’t holding on hard enough with her brake hand, plain and simple. (opinion)
Corey
The limitation of a gri gri only comes into play when your not holding on to the rope with your brake hand. When your lowering you should apply a little braking force with your brake hand. This will ensure activation of the came when you release the lever to stop lowering.
Some people are not that nice, that is a sad fact of the world.
Robbovius
People do like to do that.
Renobarb
A gri gri is an inanimate object that does not do anything by itself.
Kalcario
I agree with you about the gri gri
Castigating corey for his estimation of how far he fell when he got injured, come on. When you fall and get hurt it seems like you fell a long way. It is not like he was spraying about how far he fell.
Worn out gri gri’s
My ex-girlfriend had one that was so worn that I could not get it to activate by tugging on the rope as hard as I could (10.2). She had no problem belaying with it, I threw it in the trash.
Gri gri vs. ATC
If you cannot use an atc you can’t use a gri gri
If you can’t use a gri gri you can’t use an atc (besides the feeding issue)
If someone is an inexperienced belayer I prefer they use a gri gri to belay me if I might fall.
If someone is an inexperienced belayer and I know I am not going to fall I prefer they use an atc for practice.
d.
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orangekyak
Apr 15, 2003, 1:59 AM
Post #33 of 198
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well said, alpnclmbr.
the following quote highlights an important misconception.
In reply to: the GriGri auto-locks w/o belayer input
any time you leave the ground you make choices - mostly about trust. what gear do you trust, what people do you trust, what systems of gear usage do you trust?
If you honestly think that any device does any job "without input" you need to re-evaluate your systems. Petzl clearly says it's not intended for lead belay. Make your own choices. Challenge the systems you are taught. And if anyone questions your system (like many of us are questioning grigri lead belay), consider their arguement - being defensive will not keep your arse off the deck.
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hippie_dreams
Apr 15, 2003, 2:13 AM
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orangekyak, alpnclmbr
You both had excellent comments.
I'm definately in agreement with you alpnclmbr in that she didn't have a very good hand on the brake side of the rope, but to add to that, she didn't even have the rope in brake position where it should have been - I wasn't in a dynamic move, I was stationary on two crimps.
Thanks guys, you seem to understand. Any good stories?
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renobdarb
Apr 15, 2003, 2:26 AM
Post #35 of 198
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In reply to: Renobarb A gri gri is an inanimate object that does not do anything by itself.
That's my point...
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 15, 2003, 2:49 AM
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sadly to many,
the most recent was at maple canyon on a warm up climb.
A party of french climbers were on a route, a guy belayed by his girlfriend/wife. He sat back on the rope after reaching the anchors and his girlfriend grabbed the rope and held on, on the climber side of the device.
the gri gri did not lock up and she did not let go. He decked and was fine, she went to the hospital with tendons exposed in her hand, I saw her hand shortly after is happened and it still makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.
the other recent two times were at the mota wall at potrero chico. the guidebooks specifically warn that a sixty meter rope will not get you back to the ground. the climber was being lowered and the belayer (w gri gri) wasn't watching the end of the rope, he dropped close 20 feet and landed on his side and bounced, literally.. Still remember the thud when he hit, happily he was not hurt as far as we could tell at the moment. The belayer said "But I just saw someone lower off the same way!
Ropes vary in how long they are,(both 60m) plus he was standing in a different place.
Be cool and casual on the surface, and be deadly serious on the inside. Climbing can be perfectly safe if you let it.
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 3:19 AM
Post #37 of 198
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* Petzl clearly says it's not intended for lead belay.*
WHAT?!?! There's a drawing of someone leading etched into the thing! Where do they say this?
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 3:23 AM
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*the most recent was at maple canyon on a warm up climb.
the other recent two times were at the mota wall at potrero chico.*
Neither of these examples have anything to do with the device, what's your point?
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jhwnewengland
Apr 15, 2003, 3:36 AM
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From the instruction manual:
"Light falls or lightweight climbers: mulitple friction points on a long run-out will limit the shock force transmitted to the device. In addition, the weight of a light climber or the load of a sliding fall may not exert sufficient tension on the rope and the locking action of the device may therefore be compromised or delayed. For this reason, always maintain a tight grip on the free end of the rope."
kalcario, do not, EVER, post telling people that it is OK to let go of the brake hand with a gri-gri. And don't give me any BS about the instruction manual being overly cautious.
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jhwnewengland
Apr 15, 2003, 3:41 AM
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Also, Jeremy, the gri-gri is designed for lead-belaying. It's not desined for solo climbing - maybe that's what you were thinking of?
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 3:45 AM
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*Be cool and casual on the surface, and be deadly serious on the inside. Climbing can be perfectly safe if you let it.*
Someone, I guess me, needs to tell you how silly and strange you sound spouting these greeting-card homilies like you're some kind of Shaolin Monk or something and we're all supposed to bow our heads in reverence to this wisdom. Driving a 2 lane road with oncoming traffic, or walking down a wet flight of stairs is more dangerous than sport climbing, fer chrissakes. You know that if you spewed the above line out loud at the crags people would laugh in your face...lighten up a little there, grasshopper...
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 3:55 AM
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*kalcario, do not, EVER, post telling people that it is OK to let go of the brake hand with a gri-gri.*
Blow me. I do it all the time and so do the people I climb with, all of whom, including me, have been climbing 10-20 years longer than you've been alive according to your profile. And my safety record is SPOTLESS. It works if you let go of it. You can be paranoid and live in fear if you want, not me kid.
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jhwnewengland
Apr 15, 2003, 4:02 AM
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Hippie would not have decked if his girlfriend had been holding the rope with her brake hand the same way she would with an ATC. That's all there is to it. Anyone who could see this and other similar situations, and still claim that the brake hand has no purpose with a gri-gri, is immune to logic.
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renobdarb
Apr 15, 2003, 4:38 AM
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Man, by reading these posts one might assume kalcario makes a living out of selling Grigri's...
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 15, 2003, 4:42 AM
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the original post didn't have anything to do with a gri gri either.
or are you now saying that the gri gri dropped him, make up your mind.
I have a feeling that when they re-establish a killfile your going to hold the title since all you post is meanspirited bull
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 4:49 AM
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And I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the grigri failed when:
*She had her hand on the break end of the rope, but not in break position; it ripped it out of her hand when I fell and she couldn't grab hold fast enough*
Even if you just pinch the brake end with your thumb and index finger, it will lock up regardless of whether your hand is "in break position". And if you're only 30' up and come flinging off, the advice in the manual,
*Light falls or lightweight climbers: mulitple friction points on a long run-out will limit the shock force transmitted to the device.*
does'nt apply, also he said he outweighed the belayer by 50 pounds. The only way I can see the grigri failing given the scenario he described is if it's loaded backwards. And I REALLY wanna hear from the guy who said:
*Petzl clearly says it's not intended for lead belay.*
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 5:02 AM
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Original post:
* Just this weekend I was climbing at the Red River Gorge in KY and I took a lead fall at the last bolt of a 40ft climb. My partner was using a Gri-Gri to belay me with*
From this, you somehow gather:
*the original post didn't have anything to do with a gri gri either.*
Is it possible that you are really this dumb? You're kidding right?
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 15, 2003, 5:11 AM
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In reply to: *Be cool and casual on the surface, and be deadly serious on the inside. Climbing can be perfectly safe if you let it.* Someone, I guess me, needs to tell you how silly and strange you sound spouting these greeting-card homilies like you're some kind of Shaolin Monk or something and we're all supposed to bow our heads in reverence to this wisdom. Driving a 2 lane road with oncoming traffic, or walking down a wet flight of stairs is more dangerous than sport climbing, fer chrissakes. You know that if you spewed the above line out loud at the crags people would laugh in your face...lighten up a little there, grasshopper...
Me and my friends came up with that reminder, they practice Zen meditation and yoga and at night we play chess. Also the post was in response to a request from someone with a screenname of hippie_dream.
I understand that this is an alien concept to you.
this thread is really about people not knowing how to belay
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kalcario
Apr 15, 2003, 5:23 AM
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I'm assuming the screen name is from the Neil Young song "Hippie Dream" which with lyrics like "...and the Wooden Ships...were just a hippie dream..." is mocking of the '60's hippie ethos. Remember the CSNY song?
"...Wooden ships, on the wa-ter, very free (and easy)...ea-sy, you know the the way it's suppossed - to - be ..."
Sorry for the gratuitous rock trivia.
Of course, maybe the guy's never heard the song, I don't know...
I do understand how calm and casual, yet inwardly deadly serious, you need to be for yoga and chess, though...jesus what bs
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niftydog
Apr 15, 2003, 5:59 AM
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While the original post isn't about the Grigri, it's important that some of the people here should be given a heads up about the device. It's not my intention to pass judgement on any of the posters I've quoted, it's just that you provide good fodder for highlighting the dangers of belaying.
Read the bloody manual before you use any RC device, don't rely on your mates five minute training session no matter how much you trust them, you don't want to pick up their bad habits.
>I don’t believe in a break hand on the gri gri, its not necessary.
>...my safety record is SPOTLESS
Experienced people get into trouble all the time, it's called complacency.
Take a slow, sliding fall down a slope and see how "automatic" the Grigri really is!
Holding the free end is a fundamental rule of belaying and one of the first things you learn about climbing. Not belaying properly is IMO a huge blemish on your safety record. Just because you haven't dropped anyone doesn't mean you are 100% safe. Something that may seem “not necessary” one day might save your life the next. Always expect the worst case scenario.
PETZL;
"The Grigri is NOT a substitute for skilled, vigilant belaying"
"Always maintain a tight grip on the free end of the rope"
>the GriGri auto-locks w/o belayer input
PETZL;
"To effectively arrest a fall, pull the free end of the rope firmly downwards."
>My big beef with the Grigri is it takes primary safety responsibility from the belayer and puts it into the equipment
This is exactly the attitude that is giving this device it's bad name. The Grigri should be used as if you are belaying with a munter hitch. A life should not be entrusted to the locking feature. Primary safety is ALWAYS the responsibility of the belayer.
PETZL;
"This device can help eliminate some potential belaying errors, but not all of them."
>still waiting for someone to explain how the grigri failed
I can explain that one...
ANON;
"A poor workman always blames his tools"
>lowering with the GriGri my "brake" hand isn't really doing any braking
The handle should be fully released when rappelling or lowering, the brake hand does ALL the braking.
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