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beckerw
May 4, 2003, 2:01 AM
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ethics aside since this has degraded into a bunch of posers spewing.
you are f^%&ing weak if you STEAL project draws.
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roninthorne
May 4, 2003, 2:13 AM
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jt- you know, the only time you sound ignorant is when you talk out loud, or post where anyone else can read it. I actually have far too much to do with my life to spend it listing every single route I've ever developed or climbed on RC.com just to give trolling, poser wannabe biatches like yourself some ammo for another empty-headed. testosterone-fueled flame session.
Aren't there some flies for you to pull the wings off of around there somewhere... some puppies to kick or something else you normally occupy your vastly superior intellect with, when not washing the weasel as fast as you can for the tenth time today?
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jt512
May 4, 2003, 2:20 AM
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In reply to: I actually have far too much to do with my life to spend it listing every single route I've ever developed or climbed on RC.com
*Yawn* Who do you think you're fooling?
-Jay
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hooker
May 4, 2003, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: jt- Aren't there some flies for you to pull the wings off of around there somewhere... some puppies to kick or something else you normally occupy your vastly superior intellect with, when not washing the weasel as fast as you can for the tenth time today?
Jt--looks like he gotcha number, bro :lol:
whatcha tryin to compensate for, eh?
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jt512
May 4, 2003, 2:45 AM
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In reply to: [ Jt--looks like he gotcha number...
OK, Dude. An outright liar has my number. If you say so.
-Jay
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hooker
May 4, 2003, 2:47 AM
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why should I assume he be the liar?
As a ghost (nothing in my profile) you assume? about moi?
:lol:
denial
:cry:
hurt
:twisted:
anger
:wink:
psych....
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one900johnnyk
May 4, 2003, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: Here's a hint: If you're going to pose, pad your profile. A quick look at your ascents reveals that you've climbed nothing harder than 5.10b. Hell, you failed to onsight Mickey Goes to Vegas, a 5.9 at Jacks Canyon, the sport crag with the most padded rattings on Earth. You've never had a sport project, much less left draws up on one overnight or slept at the base of the route to keep them from being stolen. You're talking out of your ass. -Jay
jay.. if you knew how hard i was laughing when i read this you would realize this is absolutely ridiculous of you. some people do not feel the need to spend their lives on rc.com and update every climb they do, etc. etc.
mike is one of these people i'm sure and as far as his climbing abilities, experience, and accomplishments go .... ahhh let's just say you should stop being so abrasive, irrational, and self-righteous.
i'm not going to get into an argument with you over anything here so if you take issue to anything i've written, no need to post here (or anywhere) but if you must respond, please do not do it via this thread.
and you have to admit, mike has an exceptional sense of humor and way with words:
In reply to: Aren't there some flies for you to pull the wings off of around there somewhere... some puppies to kick or something else you normally occupy your vastly superior intellect with, when not washing the weasel as fast as you can for the tenth time today? |
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jt512
May 4, 2003, 3:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Here's a hint: If you're going to pose, pad your profile. A quick look at your ascents reveals that you've climbed nothing harder than 5.10b. Hell, you failed to onsight Mickey Goes to Vegas, a 5.9 at Jacks Canyon, the sport crag with the most padded rattings on Earth. You've never had a sport project, much less left draws up on one overnight or slept at the base of the route to keep them from being stolen. You're talking out of your ass. -Jay jay.. if you knew how hard i was laughing when i read this you would realize this is absolutely ridiculous of you. some people do not feel the need to spend their lives on rc.com and update every climb they do, etc. etc.
You guys are right. The dude's probably just in a slump. Happens all the time. One day you're one move away from that 5.12+ project you've had your draws up on for the season, the next day you've blown your on-sight on that Jack's Canyon testpiece Mickey Goes to Vegas.
-Jay
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mhr2000
May 4, 2003, 3:31 AM
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Ok... help me out here. Why does everyone keep repeating that a route full of draws means somebody is working a project and therefore the draws are not booty? What purpose is this serving to repeat this over and over? I think it's pretty clear that most climbers, even newbies, understand that taking any kind of equipment is not an ethical thing to do no matter what the situation.
Nothing anyone says will change the fact that aholes exist who don't give a rats behind why you left the draws and will take them. These same people will raid your tent, your car and anything else you leave unattended. Does anyone honestly think a thief will spot this thread and say "Oh... wow, I didn't realize taking draws was wrong, I better go to confession and then promise to never take draws again."
The only option to insure your equipment is safe would be to remove the draws. This is the only option that you can control. Leave your draws, you lose control over them. This goes for anything you leave unattended. A thief doesn't care if your car is parked in a dedicated area or if your tent is pitched in a proper site. I can see it now "No dude... don't take anything out of that car because it's in a dedicated parking area and not abandoned, but that one over there is on the side of the road, let's rock." :roll:
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one900johnnyk
May 4, 2003, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: Ok... help me out here. Why does everyone keep repeating that a route full of draws means somebody is working a project and therefore the draws are not booty? What purpose is this serving to repeat this over and over? I think it's pretty clear that most climbers, even newbies, understand that taking any kind of equipment is not an ethical thing to do no matter what the situation. Nothing anyone says will change the fact that aholes exist who don't give a rats behind why you left the draws and will take them. These same people will raid your tent, your car and anything else you leave unattended. Does anyone honestly think a thief will spot this thread and say "Oh... wow, I didn't realize taking draws was wrong, I better go to confession and then promise to never take draws again." The only option to insure your equipment is safe would be to remove the draws. This is the only option that you can control. Leave your draws, you lose control over them. This goes for anything you leave unattended. A thief doesn't care if your car is parked in a dedicated area or if your tent is pitched in a proper site. I can see it now "No dude... don't take anything out of that car because it's in a dedicated parking area and not abandoned, but that one over there is on the side of the road, let's rock." :roll:
you make too much sense for this argument. what say we get the hell out of here?
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roninthorne
May 4, 2003, 11:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Here's a hint: If you're going to pose, pad your profile. A quick look at your ascents reveals that you've climbed nothing harder than 5.10b. Hell, you failed to onsight Mickey Goes to Vegas, a 5.9 at Jacks Canyon, the sport crag with the most padded rattings on Earth. You've never had a sport project, much less left draws up on one overnight or slept at the base of the route to keep them from being stolen. You're talking out of your ass. -Jay jay.. if you knew how hard i was laughing when i read this you would realize this is absolutely ridiculous of you. some people do not feel the need to spend their lives on rc.com and update every climb they do, etc. etc. You guys are right. The dude's probably just in a slump. Happens all the time. One day you're one move away from that 5.12+ project you've had your draws up on for the season, the next day you've blown your on-sight on that Jack's Canyon testpiece Mickey Goes to Vegas. -Jay
Wow, JiveTalkin'512- you so wise and strong. Superior memory, too... since I don't remember ever saying I had my draws up on some 5.12+ for an entire season, or ever, for that matter.
Here's a hint- since the voices in your head only talk to you, try to limit your spew to the actual conversation, 'kay?
You know, we all make certain trade-offs in this life. I elected not to try climbing things I don't enjoy, and at 6'1" and about 215 pounds, that includes most of the climbing world above the grade of 5.11. I can live with that... and it has nothing to do with whether or not I am justified in my opinion on this topic (remember the topic? The one that you ignored in making personal attacks on me? The one where you and your poser posse claim that because you are the lords of creation, you can leave your bling hanging on a line and nobody better take it 'cuz YOU SAY SO!!!!!! Just checking...)
You apparently want us to believe that you climb harder grades, Jay, since you have padded your profile with plenty of listings claiming to have done so. Apparently, you accept this as a substitute for actually having a personality or acting anything like a human being.
As I said, we all make trade-offs... Apparently you can live with that, as well.
Don't get me wrong, you've made plenty of contributions to the climbing community.... I for one was fascinated with your articles on Swapping hands to Gain A Stroke, Taping Gerbils To Prevent Implosion During a JT512/Richard Gear FA, and HOw I Padded My Profile While Piling Up Over 2000 Posts During My Last 2 Years of Really Heinous Sending. I admit, to, that, despite my disgust, I was riveted by the action in your expose "JT512: Me, The Archbishop, and All The Boyz".
But enough on your glorious past.... that's too easy... let's examine your posts in this thread for more poser indications, shall we?
ONE of us thinks it's the end of the world that I did not onsight some sport route at Jack's Canyon. And one of us was having too much fun belaying friends and having a good time to worry about onsighting some 5.9 at Jacks'.... Which is the trait of a poser?
One of us KNOWS (from his Heavenly-ordained superior position as One Who Cranks Above 5.12 Just Look In My Padded Profile If You Don't Believe It) that I, roninthorne, have "never had a sport project". You call me an outright liar, even though you don't know me, and you don't know any of my friends or former climbing partners, and thus have no basis for that judgement. But, as so many of your previous posts have proven, time and again, Jay, ignorance doesn't in any way deter you from speaking out, now does it?
Again, anyone see any signs of a poser?
(Meanwhile, one of us is wondering what the hell I did with the 300+ bolts and hangers I bought wholesale at the PHX Bouldering Comp, if I've NEVER had a sport project...?)
Tell you what, my little spewbuddy... step up to the plate. Produce anyone who can say that they have climbed with or around me and that I DID NOT put up new lines, on bolts and/or gear, in Franklin, across West Virginia, in the Superstitions, and in Colorado, and I'll retract all this and issue a public apology. Try calling Marty Karabin (author of the Queen Creek Guidebook), or Jim Waugh (organizer of the PBC and some of the X Games). They've both climbed my lines... Marty and I have even bolted a few up, together. Or try John Burcham... you've seen his photos in many Black Diamond catalogs and in both major climbing rags.... he and I put up some new things in Sedona, and he used to climb my new routes in WVA when he lived on the east coast. See, I'm not afraid to back up what I say with witnesses, Jay.... how 'bout you?
Tell ya what, you sad little board whore- if you can perform the impossible and produce a person who does not, in fact, exist- namely, ANYONE who will tell you, from experience, that I have never had a sport project and am a poser, I'll kiss your narrow ass in Times Square at midnight on New Years Eve.
If, however, you respond to this post with anything save said proof, then you stand (or rather, sit, rabidly posting) exposed as a blowhard poser who talks smack about things and folks he should just keep his gaping piehole shut on.
Have a groundfall kind of day.
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mojorisin
May 4, 2003, 1:49 PM
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Did anyone mention he makes great burrito's too.
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benkiessel
May 5, 2003, 1:20 AM
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First of all i would never leave ANY of my gear at a crag on purpose, project or not. But, I would never in a million years take someone elses draws off of their project. But if someone does leave draws at a crag and they do get stolen, it was there own falt. i would think that 99% of the climbing community know not to take draws off of projects, but that other 1% makes me nervous enough that i would not want to bet my draws on them not being stolen.
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salami
May 5, 2003, 3:14 AM
Post #114 of 177
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Salami, maybe you are blinded by a poor vocabulary. Neither of those statements are hypothetical.
-Jay
jt512 this on is for you
oops i guess i was trying to say your views were pathetic not hypothetical.
Oh yeah try looking the word up in the dictionary before you spout numbnuts
The second definition of hypothesis which is the root word in HYPOTHETICAL states "an assumption used as a basis for investigation or argument.
I was merely pointing that you are assuming just like the rest of us. Wow where did you get your education Toys r Us????
Sorry I could not reply sooner, I was out busy climbing.
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salami
May 5, 2003, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: Most of you who are saying words to the effect that you'd never leave draws on a route overnight are, I suspect, not experienced sport climbers. Perhaps you don't think you'd ever leave your draws up overnight because you've never worked a route that is difficult to put the draws up on. I have. I've had projects where after putting up the draws I didn't have the strength to redpoint the route. The draws would go up on Saturday, I'd take a second work run on the route, and the serious work/redpoint attempts would be on Sunday with the draws already up. So I think your saying that you would "never" do this is coming from inexperience. -Jay
Jay, Jay, Jay once again you are ASSuming. I may only be red pointing my way up throughout the 12's but i remove my gear even when working on it the next day. Why you may ask, cause there were easier routes around to get to the top and lots of people climb 12's. Leaving the gear was not a risk i wanted to take. The facts of this case are 1) the draws were left 2) there was an easy next to said climb 3) someone climbed easy route and took draws. 4) draws are gone and hopefully a lesson was learned
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timstich
May 5, 2003, 3:31 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: It seems to me that a reasonable compromise between bootying the gear and leaving the draws in situ if you want them to be off the route while YOU climb it is to clean them and put them in a pile at the base of the routeNo, that is not a reasonable compromise. And this business about not wanting to climb on someone else's draws is totally hypothetical, and is just being spewed by ignorant teenage thieves as an excuse to steal a set of draws. If the route was hard enough that draws are being left on it overnight, then anyone who wants to do the route will be damn glad that someone else put draws on it and will be more than happy to climb on them. -Jay
Well that's your opinion Jay.
I think it is a possibly reasonable compromise if the route is not a new one and it's important for you to be able to make the clips using your own gear. But that's for people who still make distinctions between pinkpoints and redpoints. I don't care about that anymore, but I used to care.
But I agree, if someone else has draws on a route and they look good, hey, hell yeah I'll use them. I'll pick up used gear I find at the base of big walls, inspect it, and put it on the rack too. Sure I'm going to use someone else's draws on a hard route. If they are around, I would ask permission. If they aren't around, no permission needed.
-Tim S.
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timstich
May 5, 2003, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: Here's a hint: If you're going to pose, pad your profile. A quick look at your ascents reveals that you've climbed nothing harder than 5.10b...
Oh man that is classic! On RC.com you have to meticulously fill out your profile with your route sends to get any respect! I gotta say, just the mere thought of that has me smiling from ear to ear like a f-ing Cheshire cat! You are making an f-ing hillarious end to a great weekend.
Thanks Jay. You're beautiful man. I can't make up sh*t this funny!
-Tim Stich
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salami
May 5, 2003, 3:54 AM
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jt512
you are a very interesting person. Spouting slander and such. I remember back in high school when I would go to forums and pick arbitrary fights with online users.
Behind the safety of a computer everyone is 10ft tall and bullet proof.
The flexing of your cyber muscles is too great for me, your impotent will has put a strain far too great for the climbing community to bear. We all now bow to your greatness. You have shown that you are the master of debaters.
I just hope that in your heart, you can learn to tolerate those less than your superior stature.
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coldclimb
May 5, 2003, 4:03 AM
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This thread's been going too long for me not to add my two cents to the original topic.
Do construction workers leave their tools sitting around in an unfinished and wide open house at night while they go home to rest? It's definately wrong to take them, but everybody knows that there are thieving jerks out there, and that leaving your tools means there's a good chance that they will not be there in the morning.
Good luck getting your stuff back though.
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on_sight_man
May 5, 2003, 5:26 AM
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Hey, sorry about your draws. I saw your note in the porta-potty at Cactus cliff and it was a bummer. This thread has made me think though. The problem I think is that the climbing community is not unanimous about whether leaving draws on a route while working more than a day is OK in general.
I personally really don't like it when people leave draws. I think they are offensive looking. I don't like bolts or chalk either but have become used to the way they look. I'm not sure I WANT to become used to the way draws look. That being said, I wouldn't take a bunch of draws off a route even if I sent it cleanly, much less rap down to get them because it would feel like stealing. I WOULD take a leaver biner on the theory that I'd just "move it around" to a harder route somewhere.
What I would do with draws hanging from a route is a question of MY ethics. I wouldn't take them. What the THIEF did is a question of HIS ethics. He was WAY wrong in my opinion. Unfortunately, I also think what YOU did is a question of YOUR ethics, and yours are also faulty in my opinion, though not at all in the same way or to the same extent as the thiefs. Creating an eyesore is not as bad karmicly as stealing. And in short, two wrongs don't make a right.
I hope you get your draws back, but I hope you'll think twice about leaving them on a wall at Shelf in the future.
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rocmonkey
May 5, 2003, 8:37 AM
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mountainmonkey
Stop condoning theft! :x
It's guys like you that give other 'monkeys' a bad name.
He was working on a project and now you say it's his fault that some arsehole can't leave other people's gear alone!
I think you have a lame outlook on life! :?
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photon
May 5, 2003, 3:17 PM
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that's too bad man. Hope you find your draws.
I think maybe Dr. Dikdose stole them and put them on his/its armchair
next to all the books filled with climbs he/it dreams about!
this thread surely exposes the overwhelming amount of idiots
that "climb"
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murf
May 5, 2003, 3:53 PM
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I'm sure everyone can argue about these statements:
- It is common practice in many sport areas to leave draws on harder routes.
- In many ( not all ) areas in which this occurs, the main user groups are climbers or are moving so fast that the draws are not an eyesore.
- The people who leave the draws are accepting a certain amount of risk in doing so.
- It is common knowledge amoung climbers that these draws aren't "booty" ( i.e. left because its stuck, my girlfriend forgot it, or I'm lame ).
- If you take these draws, knowing they are from someone working the route, you've made a decision to take someone else's property. Property that, legal definitions aside, they did not abandon.
- jt512 made a big mistake crossing into ad Hominem attacks on ronithorne.
Any conclusions as to the ethics of taking the draws are up to the observer, the person who takes the draws, and the person who lost them. IMHO, if you take draws on a project, knowing its a project, you've just stolen someones draws.
Murf
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vertical_reality
May 5, 2003, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: [ Jt--looks like he gotcha number... OK, Dude. An outright liar has my number. If you say so. -Jay
What gives you the right to call him a liar? Have you ever met the guy? Just because he doesn't bother to lists everything he climbs on RC.com means he's a liar? Maybe he doesn't feel the need to show off for everyone what he has done... unlike you.
I've met the guy, great personality and funny as hell. I didn't actually climb with him but ask a few of the other peps who went to the NRP gathering in March, they'll tell you thats he's no joke.
Jay, you're an ass.
You're free to check what routes I have listed on my profile, I think there's only one (my first), I couldn't care less who knows what I've climbed.
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victorblanco
May 5, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Thank you to the people who support me. A big f you to all the people who support climbers stealing from one another and theft in general.
I'm willing to accept that there are others who don't share the idea of working routes. Gear (sport or trad) left overnight is widely(international) accepted as not free for the taking.
Did I learn a lesson? Yes. Part of me now distrusts all climbers because of one idiot. I know that is not fair though, so I'll plan strategically in the future when leaving draws on routes overnight.
The visual impact issue to me is just a little blown up. Shelf Road is a sport crag and the Access Fund and the BLM both work together to keep that crag open and accomodate the larger user group (climbers). The local landowners and the city residents are both cool with this as far as I know. As someone else mentioned earlier draws left overnight (not months on end) are probably less of a worry compared to erosion, parking problems, and or dogs.
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