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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Yeah. They are hanging there to make the climb easier. It's pinkpointing. Let's not forget, oh wise and burly sender of hard sport routes, that just because I'm only climbing 11's, doesn't mean that I have no idea what I'm talking about. You just called a redpoint, a pinkpoint, so apparently you don't know what you are talking about. No. Pre-hung draws = pinkpoint.
Nope. There is no such thing as "pinkpointing" in sport climbing.
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: There are plenty of overhanging .11's that would be made MUCH easier by pre-hanging draws, the point is that is a pathetic way to climb. I don't care if it ups my "redpoint level" two letter grades, it's poor form and produces a number of negatives. Same with "Friends." Poor style. Passive pro, or free solo. I'm sure you'll agree. What are the negatives of Friends again?
Do you honestly not get the point? If not, then just read your own post, above, substituting the word "Friends" for "pre-hanging draws."
-Jay
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2004, 6:05 PM
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In reply to: Nope. There is no such thing as "pinkpointing" in sport climbing.
Yes there is.
Changing the name, doesn't change reality. Most hard redpoints by the current definition, are pinkpoints, based on the definition of the word pinkpoint.
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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 6:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Nope. There is no such thing as "pinkpointing" in sport climbing. Yes there is. Changing the name, doesn't change reality. Most hard redpoints by the current definition, are pinkpoints, based on the definition of the word pinkpoint.
Definitions aren't static. 99% of sport climbers refer to successful leads with pre-hung draws as redpoints. This has become the accepted definition. The fact that a tiny minority cling to an archaic definition doesn't change that.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Nope. There is no such thing as "pinkpointing" in sport climbing. Yes there is. Changing the name, doesn't change reality. Most hard redpoints by the current definition, are pinkpoints, based on the definition of the word pinkpoint.
Definitions aren't static. 99% of sport climbers refer to successful leads with pre-hung draws as redpoints. This has become the accepted definition. The fact that a tiny minority cling to an archaic definition doesn't change that.
-Jay
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brianinslc
Aug 12, 2004, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: There is no such thing as "pinkpointing" in sport climbing.
Sure there is. From the Heinz Zak book, Rock Stars, last page:
"Pinkpoint = enlibre"
"A Redpoint ascent in which the quick-draws are left in place. This is a commonly used method, particularly for doing routes that are extremely overhanging. Today, the distinction between redpoint and pinkpoint has almost vanished".
Almost, but, not quite. Still in the vernacular, if nothing else, but for historical (and silly arguements) sake.
Published in 1997.
Brian in SLC
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stevep
Aug 12, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In current sportclimbing the word redpoint has come to mean both what it used to and what pinkpoint used to. I'm not aware of anyone that actually says "pinkpoint" in the sport climbing world, except in an attempt to prove feeble points in a discussion such as this. Thus, pinkpoint has effectively gone away.
As far as leaving draws goes, this is general practice on hard, overhanging routes, and on some very hard not so overhanging routes. The fact that some of you who aren't climbing on those routes may feel like if you ever got on one, you'd hang all the draws...well, go ahead. Until you do, the vast majority of people that are climbing the routes find this to be the normal practice.
As far as access goes, I'm aware of a couple of places where fixed draws were part of the issue (Cave Rock, Bend Lava Tubes). In both cases, there were a number of other issues as well. However, the majority of places where this occurs are places that are frequented mostly or exclusively by climbers, and despite a fair amount of access related experience on my part, I'm not aware of many issues with the Forest Service in these areas.
Even at Smith Rocks (where draws get left on some 13s and 14s with some regularity and where there is hiker traffic) I'm not aware of any issues.
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kalcario
Aug 12, 2004, 6:25 PM
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* There are plenty of overhanging .11's that would be made MUCH easier by pre-hanging draws, the point is that is a pathetic way to climb. I don't care if it ups my "redpoint level" two letter grades, it's poor form and produces a number of negatives.*
Depends what you call overhanging, not too many 5.11's fit my definition of overhanging...
*The number one reason why strong climbers get away with leaving draws is that most people don't climb those routes, therefore the gear does not see a lot of traffic, and is not at risk from being taken. As the climbing population gets stronger and more people start sending .13's, it's more likely this poor style of dressed-up routes will be eliminated, in the same way that you don't see draws hanging off of .11's and most .12's.*
But if they're focusing on the draws and not the climbing they won't get stronger. And 5.14's have been around for 20 years now, let alone 5.13, and prehung draws are still the rule not the exception. Sport climbing begins at 12c, kid...when (if) you get there you'll understand.
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jakedatc
Aug 12, 2004, 6:33 PM
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exactly Jay.. all 3 sends of Realization, all sends except jason kehls boulder of The Fly, etc all redpoints
hell sharma skipped like who knows how many draws due to the fact that just clipping was hard enough let along having to throw draws on it too
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2004, 6:45 PM
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http://www.wwwright.com/...s/2000/ShelfRoad.htm
In reply to: Pinkpointing is a very specific term which makes communication more accurate and succinct. Redpointing used to be the same way, but now redpointing means pinkpointing for almost all of the sport climbing community. If you want to describe a real redpoint you must say: "redpointing while placing all the gear/draws." This is such a big mouthful. Why did the sport climbing community do this? Clearly because it was already accepted that you are "done" with a route once you have redpointed it. So, instead of convincing the world that you are really "done" with a route after you pinkpoint it, they decided to redefine redpointing as pinkpointing. This is fine, except for the clumsy language necessary for describing a real redpoint. Maybe we could call a real redpoint a purplepoint or something? The magazines are probably as much to blame as anyone for this corruption of terms. In the latest issue Yuji Hirayama onsighted a 14a/b route (hardest route every onsighted) and the magazines went to great pains to explicitly say that he hung all the draws while leading this route, since they know saying Yuji "redpointed" the route would mislead the readers into thinking he really pinkpointed it. I must now state the obvious because frequently sport climbers retreat to the fallacy that there is no difference between pinkpointing and redpointing. Of course, Alli and Mark, being reasonable people, don't agree with this. It is utter nonsense of course. Redpointing is always harder and frequently MUCH harder. When Alli was trying Sparkle in the Rain (12c) later this weekend at Shelf Road, she would say to me, "Now, Bill, there is no way I would do this route placing the draws. It would be so much harder." I'll say it again. On an overhanging route, redpointing is always much harder than pinkpointing. If you don't believe this you are not rational and reading further is a waste of your time. Sport climbers seem to have a way of defining down success. Initially, you had to redpoint the route. Now you only have to pinkpoint the route. Now with the advent of stick-clips, it is standard practice to clip the first draw from the ground. And this counts also. But it has gotten even worse. When Boone Speed climbed Ice Cream in Hell (5.14c) he did a yo-yo ascent with the rope already clipped through the first three quickdraws. The magazine validated this ascent as being "done" even though Boone admitted that the crux of the route was clipping the third draw (let alone placing the third draw - no one would even consider climbing it like that!) So, now you not only don't need to place the draws, but you don't even have to clip them. Alli says this is because sport climbing is all about the movement and pushing the absolute limits of what you can climb. The obvious question then is why isn't a toprope ascent considered "doing" the route. I asked this of Alli and she said it has to do with conquering the fear of leading. Good point, but it is certainly becoming closer and closer to toproping and further and further away from a real redpoint. Enough of the Mr. Language Person Sport Climbing Ethics. On to the climbing. |
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stevep
Aug 12, 2004, 7:17 PM
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Alpncmbr,
I think your post almost makes the opposite point of what you seem to be intending. You reference a bunch of exceptions to prove something. Yuji's accomplishment was more specifically defined because it was more impressive. Boone's ascent and more recently the acsents of the Fly are exceptions. Most hard redpoints don't have multiple draws pre-clipped.
Maybe it is dumbing things down to pre-hang draws? But it is certainly standard practice, and has been so for quite sometime. It's also dumbing down to use chalk and sticky rubber slippers instead of hobnails, but I don't see any of these 5.10 climbers volunteering to send their 10s that way, much less a 13.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2004, 7:28 PM
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Steve
Saying that there is no pinkpointing is like saying that there is no true redpointing.
There is, and it is a distinction worthy of note.
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coylec
Aug 12, 2004, 7:30 PM
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Talk about a blown up topic.
I'm going to weigh in, but in reference to intellectual honestly, I'm not a "hard" sportclimber. In fact, I don't consider myself a "sport climber". But, since its an issue that affects climbers, I feel like I can weigh in on it.
A couple of misconceptions: quickdraws are NOT fixed. Unless of course, you are donating them to the community and wish for them to remain there forever. In which case, put them on with mallions instead of biners; that way everyone knows there are there to stay. I 100% disagree with this, but I'll accept it as fixed gear.
I think "pinkpointing" exists, as per its usage in the literature, but the distinction between pinkpointing and redpointing is irrelevant to most sportclimbers.
To the tomatoes and potatoes! :lol:
First, I don't agree with the practice hanging draws ad infinium. I think that as long as you're actively working a route, go for it; but when you're going to leave them up for more than a couple of days without working the route, that's a little excessive. This is an aesthetic based belief. They attract attention to the bolts that have been placed in the rock ... while tourons can't see usually see bolts, its pretty easy to see draws hanging around. In areas with potential access issues, this can create a starting point for restrictive regulations. If you don't think its true, check out the newest land management proposals ... some include bans on new bolts and anchors (such as for Suicide).
Second, some places have rules regarding leaving gear. Some national forests say that gear left unattended for more than a specified period (like 24 hours) is deemed "abandoned." I think that if the regulations in the area define the draws as "abandoned," they are fair game as booty. If the area's regulations permit leaving draws on projects, then its not booty. I think that this is a fair standard. I'd go so far as to say that if you leave your draws for more than a week without using them, they should be considered abandoned. Overnight or over a weekend, that's cool, but there must be a limit to how long you can leave your crap out there.
Third, I think that if you leave 'draws on a route, you have to be willing to let anyone use them. Some guy got huffy with me because I climbed a route that had had his draws on it for ( at least 2, probably more) days. Thought I was in the wrong for "using his equipment without his permission." STFU was my response. I still think I was right. If you leave your junk on a route, you have to accept that others will use it. It's not your territory ... you aren't "reserving" the route for yourself. If you're not working it, its open game.
Fourth, I think that if you're going to embrace and allow projecting, you have to allow it at all levels: the draws on a 5.14d should get the same respect and treatemnt as the draws on a 5.8. There shouldn't be rules that are only for "elite" climbers -- if you want to endorse allowing draws to be left for projecting, it should be for anyone's project. Just because you consider 5.13 "hard" doesn't mean that another climber doesn't consider 5.10 "hard" and 5.13 "damn near impossible". We all have equal worth as climbers and thus, are deserving of the same respect and privilege. If its "okay" for the 5.14 climber, it must also be "okay" for the 5.8 climber.
---------------------------
Here's a question ...
If the draws on a project aren't fair game for booty, what if some trado left gear on a hard trad route ... like they were projecting it. Does that gear get the same respect as your draws, or it is booty?
coylec
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rocdaug
Aug 12, 2004, 7:38 PM
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right on coylec. :righton:
couldn't agree more. :)
rd
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stevep
Aug 12, 2004, 8:02 PM
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Alpnclimbr,
I didn't say there is no such thing as pinkpointing. Yuji's accomplishment was obviously more impressive. Though if he'd on-sighted it with the draws pre-placed, that's still an on-sight, not a pinkpoint.
The point I've been trying to make is that for the majority of harder sport climbers, that term is now irrelevant. Very, very few of them think that way.
Coylec,
I agree with you in that there should be a limit on how long draws can hang if one is not actively working something. The exception to this is perhaps caves where community consensus is that they should be permanently fixed, in which case they should probably be replaced with chain.
Anyone who won't let you use their draws is a turd.
And finally, I don't see a difference between draws and gear. If somebody left their cams on Sphinx crack to work it, it doesn't make them booty. A single piece in the middle of a climb used to bail is different, but that's not what we're talking about here.
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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: Steve Saying that there is no pinkpointing is like saying that there is no true redpointing. There is, and it is a distinction worthy of note.
Honestly, you are the only accomplished sport climber I know who thinks so.
-Jay
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jakedatc
Aug 12, 2004, 8:19 PM
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coy ur right.. fixed is a bad use of the term.. mearly on there a tad longer than one "climb" of it...
the time limit is probably dictated by local norms.. and then changed slightly for the grade at which it's hung... only a handful of people are going to be projecting the same 14 at one time.. and they probably know each other.. the numbers increase as you go down so either they use ur draws or get them off sooner as the grade goes down
yes.. if ur draws are up there for more than 1 day or if you leave.. expect people to use them.. screw that if someone says you cant.. find the nearest 5.7 to the top and rap off swapping their draws out for yours in that case then nicely say "well you can use mine if you'd like b/c i'm not a jackass"
the point of leaving draws up has already been said.. the overhanging nature and bolt placements done specifically for pre placed draws.. on a 5.8 you are most likely going to think you're at the clipping stance too early if you have draws hung there.. be on a bad hold or have to high clip and blow the clip having a nice tumble down a slab..
the advantages of having preplaced is really only seen at higher levels where the margin for error is magnified .. even missing the clip once with the rope might be hanging there too long and you're done.. when the little things start to matter is when alot of stuff gets important.. air temp.. rock temp...etc ... if you're falling off 5.8's it's not due to your having to haul up and clip draws..
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2004, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Steve Saying that there is no pinkpointing is like saying that there is no true redpointing. There is, and it is a distinction worthy of note. Honestly, you are the only accomplished sport climber I know who thinks so. -Jay
I know lots of strong climbers that still recognize the tradish value of not taking the easy path.
Clipping routes up can be fun and it earns extra style points.
I am not disputing that sharma "sent" realization.
Most of my long term projects have perma draws on them so it is a moot point in that regard.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 12, 2004, 9:32 PM
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Projecting the 5.8 thing just dosen't wash. Draws left on easy climbs will be bootied and that is a fact. jay there are pleanty of situations were fixed gear has led to access issues. the more invisible the better and you know it.
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sarcat
Aug 12, 2004, 9:36 PM
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In reply to: Fourth, I think that if you're going to embrace and allow projecting, you have to allow it at all levels: the draws on a 5.14d should get the same respect and treatemnt as the draws on a 5.8. There shouldn't be rules that are only for "elite" climbers -- if you want to endorse allowing draws to be left for projecting, it should be for anyone's project. Just because you consider 5.13 "hard" doesn't mean that another climber doesn't consider 5.10 "hard" and 5.13 "damn near impossible". We all have equal worth as climbers and thus, are deserving of the same respect and privilege. If its "okay" for the 5.14 climber, it must also be "okay" for the 5.8 climber.
Exactly what I was saying on page 4 and got somewhat flamed. As usual you're right on coylec. Most 5.8 climbers can finish their climb and take their draws home to keep them safe from theives and protected from sunlight to use another day.
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paule
Aug 12, 2004, 9:50 PM
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What an amazing thread! I take with exception any climbing area with rules that explicitly allows leaving draws to what I am about to say, but feel that I need to speak up about this thorny problem that involves so many different issues. First off, I have never climbed in an area that had rules that explicitly allowed leaving draws for any amount of time, but that probably doesn't mean much.
Secondly, I would have to assume there are climbing areas that allow this since so many people are worked up about draws getting snatched. (This is my hopeful implication that there may still be a few good-natured climbers out there with common sense, good climbing experience, and still has a valid reason to defend leaving draws.) Even so, such climbing rules are of great exception.
Having said that, if you are not climbing in such an area, then clean up after yourself. It doesn't matter if you are Tommy Caldwell, Chris Sharma, etc. Route difficulty is of no relevance to knowingly and intentionally leaving draws on a sport route either. After all, it is not YOUR route, nor does leaving draws justify routesquatting. If that were the case, then I guess I should start peeing on the rock at the base of the route to mark it as "mine." If you and your partners are taking a break from climbing, but intend to continue using the same sport route, then it is okay to leave gear hanging as long as you are not just sitting on the route all day. If you are using the route, then use it. If not, then get your f'ing gear off and get out of the way so other people can enjoy a clean route just as the group before you allowed YOU to do. When you are through climbing, remove your gear. Your personal gear is not fixed pro, so remove it! Any climber that leaves draws or any other gear behind for that matter, on a sport route, especially overnight, needs their head examined and deserves to lose their gear. If you leave your gear like that, then it is by definition, abandoned gear. It is as simple as that.
Let me quickly add to that I am fiercely against anyone stealing someone else's gear. Furthermore, if I started climbing a route that had draws on it, not only would I not take them for myself, I would not even as much use them. Do you understand? I have my own gear which I trust, because I keep track of usage, wear and tear, etc. Just by the inherent nature of the type of person that would leave draws indefinitely, I would not trust one of their draws (or any other pieces of gear they intentionally left behind) for a far as you could throw it. They obviously don't think much of their own gear because they just leave it there and don't take care of it, so why should I trust it? If their gear was not good enough for them to take it with them when they left, then it isn't good enough for me to use. I am already putting enough trust in bolts that get used all the time (many receive continual, insane abuse by those who do not know how to properly build anchors, clip draws, etc.), and essential to anyone that wants to live long enough to have many years of great climbing must understand how to stack odds in their favor.
If you abandon draws on a route that you have clearly left, and they are in my way when I climb the route, then I will remove them. If you come back, you will find all your gear at the base of the route unless someone else picks them up for you. I don't care if it is a rack full of BD Camalots, I will make every reasonable effort the owner has allowed me, to get their gear back to them.
It isn't bad karma to use some unknown climber's gear they left behind.... it is simply stupidity to the same level as the person who intentionally left the gear behind. If the route is so hard or so much trouble for you to consider placing your own gear each time you climb it, to the extent that you would actually leave behind gear hanging, then it is clearly a sign that you are in over your head and doing the wrong routes.
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rocdaug
Aug 12, 2004, 9:58 PM
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abso-frickin-lootly! :D
well said paule!
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robmcc
Aug 12, 2004, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: Furthermore, if I started climbing a route that had draws on it, not only would I not take them for myself, I would not even as much use them. Do you understand?
Got it. You're a noob. ;)
Rob
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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: What an amazing thread! I take with exception any climbing area with rules that explicitly allows leaving draws...
Where are such climbing rules usually written? Maybe this is a Canadian thing.
In reply to: ...but feel that I need to speak up about this thorny problem...
Leaving draws on a route is only a problem on the Internet.
In reply to: First off, I have never climbed in an area that had rules that explicitly allowed leaving draws for any amount of time, but that probably doesn't mean much.
I've never climbed in an area with explicit climbing rules. Perhaps you're thinking of the gym.
In reply to: Secondly, I would have to assume there are climbing areas that allow this since so many people are worked up about draws getting snatched. Even so, such climbing rules are of great exception.
Has it ever occurred to you that you should actually know something about climbing before posting to rock a climbing forum?
In reply to: After all, it is not YOUR route, nor does leaving draws justify routesquatting.
How about at least reading the whole thread before posting. If you were to do that you would see that when we leave draws on a route, we do allow other climbers to climb on them.
In reply to: Any climber that leaves draws or any other gear behind for that matter, on a sport route, especially overnight, needs their head examined and deserves to lose their gear. If you leave your gear like that, then it is by definition, abandoned gear.
Perhaps you should actually look up the meaning of "abandon."
In reply to: Furthermore, if I started climbing a route that had draws on it, not only would I not take them for myself, I would not even as much use them. Do you understand? I have my own gear which I trust, because I keep track of usage, wear and tear, etc.
Yes, we understand. You are a paranoid gumby.
In reply to: Just by the inherent nature of the type of person that would leave draws indefinitely, I would not trust one of their draws...
We should compare draws. I'll bet mine are safer than yours.
In reply to: If you abandon draws on a route that you have clearly left, and they are in my way when I climb the route, then I will remove them.
No, dude. It's like this: You can't get up anything that any of us would ever leave draws on.
In reply to: It isn't bad karma to use some unknown climber's gear they left behind.... it is simply stupidity to the same level as the person who intentionally left the gear behind. If the route is so hard or so much trouble for you to consider placing your own gear each time you climb it, to the extent that you would actually leave behind gear hanging, then it is clearly a sign that you are in over your head and doing the wrong routes.
Thanks for posting. The Gumby of the Year Awards are in need of new blood.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 12, 2004, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: abso-frickin-lootly! :D well said paule!
How embarrassing for you.
-Jay
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rocdaug
Aug 12, 2004, 10:29 PM
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ahhhh... the unmistakable voice of the all-knowing all-seeing sourthern california climbing god. we all bow to your unmistakable authority. :boring:
I thought I had read here someplace that personal attacks and insults were against the rules. ...or are mods above the rules?
cheers.
rd
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