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dirtineye
Jan 11, 2004, 5:25 PM
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What has happened in the Needles, SD with regards to bolting and retro bolting? From a friend who used to climb there I heard that once upon a time the sound of a power drill would bring a posse after the driller.
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okinawatricam
Jan 11, 2004, 11:56 PM
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Climbing ethics are not set in stone, actually that is why we call them ethics. Ethics are a general, unwritten set of rules that a group decides to follow. This mean that they will change with every sub generation.
About Eldo: the locals there have, on several occassions help meeting to discuss adding a bolt to a route they felt was dangerous. In some cases the consensus was yes, in others it was no.
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sharpender
Jan 12, 2004, 2:06 AM
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kalcario wrote: In reply to: in reality the retro bolter isn't imposing ANYTHING on anybody else, you can retro bolt the X rated route, and if you do it without a rope, it's just as much of an X as it was before, just the security of the rope (security was never there in the first place, because it was rated X) is gone. The only way to not free solo an X rated route is to top rope it. |
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rockync
Jan 12, 2004, 2:45 AM
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Jees Louise and Man 0 Man,,,, rock climbing Ain't Mountaineering and this ain't about no weenie roast.... it is Recreational Climbing.
This thread is about shorter climbs.
Hells Bells, as I have kindly written, we are talking... not about ethics but about common sense.
Peeps and some friends...calm blue ocean, or what ever your personal mantra is... breathe deep.
Soft pitons removed, Robbins preached the leader never falls, and you bark like chickens about ethics?
Honest rock climbers will everywhere say that death routes in our recreation are HISTORY.
Mountaineers, with hemp ropes, no oxygen, axle iron will also say the same about shorter technical rock climbs. Or they are also gone with that mode of recreation.
Listen.
This is not about ethics it is about sanity.
If you put up a route that you survived, good. Please go back and make it at least sporty if not safe. NOT talking about the 3 foot bolts or anything like that. It is about ground fall or ledge cratering.
Talking about Ground Fall deals my fellow climbers. Can you be so self absorbed with that wonderful FA or (FFA like you have not previewed) that you want to make certain that your Moment in Time is preserved and ask another climber or Family member to say...
To say why, Why, why could you have not gone back and protected that section as an after thought from the top down?
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kalcario
Jan 12, 2004, 2:48 AM
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*Wrong. Your conclusion is based on faulty logic.*
Exactly my point. X rated routes are illogical therefore no logic is gonna come out of it. It makes about as much sense to free solo as it does to have death routes.
*Let me reiterate the point. Traditional leaders take the risk of falling (with death or injury) every time they put up a route. On face and slab climbs this risk is heightened for first ascent parties by the difficulty of drilling bolts. There is no protection until the climber hammers the hole and installs the bolt.*
I know what slab climbing is, it's that stuff we used to do 20 years ago...do people still do it?
*Perhaps if you go to your sport climb and remove the hangers and then replace them as you lead the sport route you will begin to appreciate the skill and courage in this type of climbing.*
Don't they do that in Australia? Carry the hangers? Carrots, I think they call 'em
*Perhaps if you go to your sport climb and remove the hangers and then replace them as you lead the sport route you will begin to appreciate the skill and courage in this type of climbing.*
Can't-it's too steep,
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rockync
Jan 12, 2004, 3:02 AM
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Trad climber?
Have you ever run it it out? What a Silly question, every rock climber has run it out, it is what we do, what we remember and what makes campfire, boldertoad and gym mat stories. This is a risk sport.
Perhaps not as much as when I solo whitewater or even solo road ride. Much risk there too.
This is the thread. EGO.
Stop making a couple of pitches into Matterhorns.
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curt
Jan 12, 2004, 3:13 AM
Post #157 of 246
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rockync,
It is a shame, but not that surprising--considering your first post, that after eleven pages of debate on this topic, you have still learned nothing.
Curt
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sharpender
Jan 12, 2004, 3:26 AM
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In reply to: If you put up a route in an area that has nothing but well protected route, follow suit and do the same.
Ah, bu tif the sport bolters and retrobolters had followed this we wouldn't have this problem. We would only have the question of; Does this X route need a bolt added to protect a death fall over crux moves. I suspect the first ascent party would reasonably respond to the request. What I've heard described here in some X routes as warm ups is that gymnastic sport climbers put up x routes to warm up on and get their "juice" before thrashing on their well protected harder moves. Sad,
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roughster
Jan 12, 2004, 5:08 AM
Post #159 of 246
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CORRECTION After discussion with the bewildered at my post Bhilden I did some researching and found out that I did indeed butcher than name of the FAist. A different person did the FA.
Sorry about the confusion it caused! However, for your viewing pleasure I have drug up the FAists comments on the route in question:
In reply to: Only established one route myself using hooks for lead pro, in New Jack City, a 5.8 that has since been retrobolted and rated 5.11. One duct-taped skyhook with screamer protected the exit. Very akin to soloing... the second ascent was made sans rope. |
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skiclimb
Jan 12, 2004, 5:14 AM
Post #160 of 246
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Here is the deal A climb is not worth my life...if a bit of rock dust and a permanent bolt can make an otherwise wonderful but deadly climb reasonably safe and enjoyable...and esp if I think it likely that many people will follow not intending to stare death in the face then I will place a bolt on an established climb...you may argue with me later or even deck me (god help you 8) )...but I ain't apologizing...there are of course certain accepted and admired testpeices this would not apply too as evryone is familiar with thier reputation and desirous of the test if they climb it...such as the hollow flake on the Salathe or the Bachar-Yerian in tuolomne. I would just as gladly chop any retrobolts and patch the rock lovingly if i found them there. Otherwise a stupidly and dangerously bolted route deserves to be retrobolted.
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kalcario
Jan 12, 2004, 2:35 PM
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* It is a shame, but not that surprising--considering your first post, that after eleven pages of debate on this topic, you have still learned nothing.*
Which is worse-11 pages or 30 years?
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dingus
Jan 12, 2004, 2:58 PM
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I am more ambivilant than ever on this topic.
Would that the defenders of the Hallowed X-Routes actually climb them.
Would that retrobolters have to climb an X routeon the old pro before rendering it tame.
But no. We have a grand debate about routes no one climbs. And I can think of not one constructive thing to say.
I won't blindly defend X routes, having never climbed one on purpose. And I won't defend the paving over of history either, even though I like clipping bolts as much as the next man. I see a profound difference between the exploration of yesteryear and the preservation of tomorrow.
Somewhere in between there lies a common ground. Though, this thread does not suggest any evidence of that commonality.
Respect your peers. And your peers include the others in this thread. If you don't do that, this is a nothing more than a great sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Cheers
DMT
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murf
Jan 12, 2004, 3:39 PM
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In reply to: CORRECTION After discussion with the bewildered at my post Bhilden I did some researching and found out that I did indeed butcher than name of the FAist. A different person did the FA. Sorry about the confusion it caused! However, for your viewing pleasure I have drug up the FAists comments on the route in question: In reply to: Only established one route myself using hooks for lead pro, in New Jack City, a 5.8 that has since been retrobolted and rated 5.11. One duct-taped skyhook with screamer protected the exit. Very akin to soloing... the second ascent was made sans rope.
You are such a freaking trip! First you fail to stir the pot because you messed up he-said she-said. Then you post part of a private email.
It doesn't matter if you are talking about X rated routes or whether or not a guidebook should be published, I've come to mentally read your posts in a whining little kid voice.
"I don't wanna ask about the secret area."
"I don't wanna run it out, I wanna bolt."
Blah, freaking blah.
I don't mind you bolting up your gutless sport routes, why do you have to attack my fear engaging dangerous routes? Especially in that whiny tone of yours.
Someone needs to show me the area that has so many unclimbable X routes that it impacts the climbing experience. That is, someone cannot go there an enjoy many days climbing without getting on an X route. Why do these routes need to be sanatized?
Murf
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skiclimb
Jan 12, 2004, 4:00 PM
Post #164 of 246
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To me it comes down to insignificant climbs that tend to suck in the unaware...they go a few moves up don't find anything continue a bit more and now find themselves in severe jeapordy of serious injury or worse because some moron FAer didn't have the skill neccesary or $$$s to place another bolt. I've run into a few of thes and have added a reasonable bolt or moved a bolt on a few of them and feel I did a service to everyone for it.
When you do a route and find yourself syaing WTF why did he put that there??? and not here???? Damn I could have decked hard...IDIOT and a few other well chosen words for the FAer than you may have a candidate for retrofitting.
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hugepedro
Jan 12, 2004, 11:27 PM
Post #165 of 246
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In reply to: Would that the defenders of the Hallowed X-Routes actually climb them.
I climbed some X-death this weekend. Here's a description of one.
4th class up 60 feet to a narrow ledge. Then the climb starts with 40 unprotectable feet before a 2-bolt anchor. From there it's 80 feet to the first bolt, then the pitch is well protected to the belay. 30 feet off the belay is your first and only opportunity for pro, a pink tricam or a #3 TCU, then it's 60 feet to the top.
Moderate climbing? Yes. Mostly 5.8 slab.
Scary nonetheless? Oh hell yes.
A mental challenge? Absolutely.
A worthwhile route? No question. I've climbed it a half dozen times and it's still as fun and challenging as the first time. But if it were retro-bolted I would never climb it again because the challenging aspect of the climb, the head game, would be destroyed.
There are many X routes I've yet to climb. Please don't ruin them for me.
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hugepedro
Jan 12, 2004, 11:34 PM
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In reply to: When you do a route and find yourself syaing WTF why did he put that there??? and not here???? Damn I could have decked hard...IDIOT and a few other well chosen words for the FAer than you may have a candidate for retrofitting.
No. I would be the idiot if I started a climb not knowing what I was getting myself into, then I would be a poossy if I didn't sack up and finish it after I got scared.
In reply to: I've run into a few of thes and have added a reasonable bolt or moved a bolt on a few of them and feel I did a service to everyone for it.
I'd say you've destroyed a little slice of climbing history, no matter how insignificant, and done a diservice to both climbing and climbers.
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crushingfinger
Jan 12, 2004, 11:45 PM
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Wow 12 pages of this crap! T12 at least.
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rockync
Jan 13, 2004, 12:24 AM
Post #168 of 246
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Actually not been crap.
Through this exercise those interested enough to post have weighed in with salient thoughts.
Truth is we could just say that all routes are R-X and perhaps remove liability issues.
But I fear that is not the end.
I think that FA peeps that have ground up routes below their skill levels owe the future of the recreation a revisit to those routes and the service to their fellow climbers. Just think, as I have said to those FA peeps if they survied the Darwin Test, have they themselves gone back to repeat it?
I wonder how many FA teams that have done the death routes have repeated the effort?
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okinawatricam
Jan 13, 2004, 12:41 AM
Post #169 of 246
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I once told a friend I would never willingly put up am X rated route, although I have climb a few in my time. I have also climb a few routes that should have been been given an X and were not. "Stoner's Highway comes to mind in Yosemite. I don't avoid Xrated routes if they are good.
On two occassions, I put up routes, that by the time I finished the accent, the route deserved an X-rating. I would have placed a bolt, had I had the opportunity. To make sure the route would repeated, I went back, on both occassions and added a bolt where no gear was available, once on rappel, the other while hanging on a hook. Both routes now see regular accent.
While bolting a route in Western Ky, I put up a route as Mixed, a combination of bolts and gear. Since the route only had piece of natural gear, and the area favored sport climbing I added a bolt. (after a month of self torture and sould searching) That is one of the most popular routes there now.
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skiclimb
Jan 13, 2004, 12:51 AM
Post #170 of 246
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I highly applaud the sentiments of the above poster and his careful attention to creating good routes.
Reply to...now you have destroyed a bit of climbing history...
Yep and now in each case where I have done so the climbs have seen much more use and in two cases there have been no more injuries on them where there had been multiple injuries beforehand...
That's an improvement on history and now they develope their own new history in the minds of those who will remember climbing them and having a great time :D
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curt
Jan 13, 2004, 1:42 AM
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In reply to: Here is the deal A climb is not worth my life...
If that is the case, you really needn't say more. Clearly shuffle board, checkers or knitting are more up your alley. No one has ever suggested that you MUST climb a poorly protected route.
And, I'm not saying this because I have the biggest set of nuts on the planet either. I have succeeded on thousands of routes, but I have also backed off hundreds of them during my climbing career--because I felt I was in over my head. In spite of that, I NEVER thought to add protection to the routes I backed off--merely to drag the climb down to my level.
And that, is really what this entire discussion is about.
Curt
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skiclimb
Jan 13, 2004, 2:47 AM
Post #172 of 246
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Yes and I like freesoloing at times also.....but a sport route with bolts is not a matter of great importance to me...If a FAer can't do it properly or safely...(see the sport climbing comment) then I'll fix it for him...I've seen people I brought into rockclimbing and instructed carefully on safe climbing practices and judgement hurt on crappy routes So I fix them when I feel necessary...
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okinawatricam
Jan 13, 2004, 2:53 AM
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Alright, maybe it time to get rid of the bringing down the climb to you level. With that argument, not bolts should ever be placed. after all, even R/X rated routes have bolts.
destroying history: a way to keep history alive would be to annotate the guide book with the new bolt that was added.
To clarify something. Some routes get an X rating even if the bolts are close together. A bolt five feet above a ledge, the next one ten feet above it. In some of those cases, the bolt was clearly misplaced, do we need to risk the life/limbs of climbers because of someone inept bolting skills.
Each route needs to be bolted in accordence to the local ethics. I have found that more people appreciate a correction to an existing route, than oppose it.
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curt
Jan 13, 2004, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: ...I've seen people I brought into rockclimbing and instructed carefully on safe climbing practices and judgement hurt on crappy routes So I fix them when I feel necessary...
If it was true that you taught these people the concept of good judgement, they would not have been injured. Nice try though.
Curt
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okinawatricam
Jan 13, 2004, 3:25 AM
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Are you saying that people with good judgement don't climb R and X routes?
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