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jt512
Aug 4, 2006, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I agree. The argument is valid. However, being based on an incorrect assumption, it is unsound. Sport climbing inherently violates the "Leave No Trace" principle. But that's really beside the point. The fact is that the incremental impact of adding a few more bolts to an area covered with 1600 of them is negligible. I would agree, after you add that many bolts to an area, adding eight more doesn't really effect things that much more. The problem comes in applying that logic to other areas and other situations.
Careful, there; you are beginning to sound sensible. Local ethics, situational ethics, judgment. All of us (except Healy) are starting to sound like we're approaching -- gasp! -- consensus.
In reply to: If we just keep trashing things, they just keep getting trashed. That seems ok to you. whatever. At some point you draw the line. You have yours and I have mine. We both seem to think ours is best. I don't think either of us will convince the other they are wrong. You say my logical flaw lies in the fact that I think sport climbing is ok, but I practice a LNT doctrine. NEWS FLASH: I don't sport climb.
No, I said that your "ethics" are hypocritical because you would allow a single bolt to be placed on any route. Bolts are anathma to "Leave No Trace." They are a permanent alteration of the rock. You need to change your acronym to LNTEWIIWMOSRP -- Leave No Trace, Except When It Interferes With My Own Selfish Recreational Persuits. Not so catchy, is it? But at least it would be honest.
In reply to: In reply to: Try reading the whole thread then. The reason for bolting the flake has been explained. And I agree with your reasons. I put that statement in *'s to differentiate it as a side note. If it helps, copy and paste that paragraph somewhere and delete the part with *'s around it. I wasn't attacking you.
That's not what asterisks designate. There is no way for anyone to have guessed that's what you intended.
In reply to: In reply to: You can apply your reasoning until your fingers a crippled with arthritis. You'll continue to come to the same flawed conclusions, because of the underlying hypocrisy of your pseudo-LNT philosophy: You can bolt a rock if it lets you climb an essentially unprotectable route. It places climbing above the environment. You can leave a "trace" when it suits your selfish purposes. In reply to: Pretty in line with the practical application of the LNT doctrine as it applies to climbing, I think. Emphasis added to prove my point. See above points for further erudition on the subject. Both extremes are wrong (no bolts/everything bolted). The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
And that "truth" just happens to coincide with the type of climbing you like to do. What a coincidence!
Jay
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hammerless_7
Aug 4, 2006, 7:56 PM
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:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
I,am very sad that this is the future of climbing.
W.T.F. would guys like Lionel Terray, John Long, Hermann Buhl and John Harlin think of your rap bolted crack climbs, your stick clips and your ethics?
Rise to the difficulty, challange yourself and read some climbing history.
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the_iceman
Aug 4, 2006, 8:04 PM
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In reply to: I know, I know, I said I was done. In reply to: I actually laughed out loud at that. The reason slavery was abolished was that there was this little war, see, between The North and The South... Crazy thing, it was white people who freed the slaves, cause there were more white people who were against slavery than there were for it. Your logic is so completely flawed and off base it's almost sad. I was trying to point out that popular opinion is not always right and subject to change. When it changes, hopefully it is because people decide through some sort of logical argument that the other way of thinking is right. Maybe it wasn't the best example. BTW, the civil war was fought over other reasons, the abolishment of slavery was a more minor one and more or less a side effect, at least that's what some history major freinds told me. Anyway, as I said, I'm done. Declare victory if you wish. I haven't surrendered my points, I'm just sick of arguing. I'm obviously not going to convince you guys of anything, and vice versa. Bye.
While the reasons behind the Civil War are more complex than a simple slavery debate, it was a large part of it. And the abolishment of slavery in America can hardly be attributed to all of the hateful "white people" opening their minds, and becoming enlightened.
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bobd1953
Aug 4, 2006, 8:07 PM
Post #179 of 252
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In reply to: W.T.F. would guys like Lionel Terray, John Long, Hermann Buhl and John Harlin think of your rap bolted crack climbs, your stick clips and your ethics?
Well...all but one are dead and think that Largo has done some sport climbing.
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the_iceman
Aug 4, 2006, 8:08 PM
Post #180 of 252
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In reply to: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: I,am very sad that this is the future of climbing. W.T.F. would guys like Lionel Terray, John Long, Hermann Buhl and John Harlin think of your rap bolted crack climbs, your stick clips and your ethics? Rise to the difficulty, challange yourself and read some climbing history.
Yes, and what would Henry Ford think of Fuel Injection, Radial Tires, and ABS? Come on guys!
BTW haven't you heard that those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it? You should be telling everybody to ignore the history of climbing, then we'll just do it all over again!
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j_ung
Aug 4, 2006, 8:19 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Respecting local styles and ethics, to my way of thinking, is far more important for our climbing tribe than the false god LNT. LNT is the god that enbles folks 3000 miles away to threaten to chop a bolt they will most likely never see in their lifetimes. They are sadly misguided by macho s---, LNT blinders and the Slippery Slope Prophets of Doom. Respect local styles, or stay the hell out. DMT Interesting, and thanks for sharing. What you say here is that we as humans just aren't going to get along, so we shouldn't really try. We should all stay in our own isolated little groups of like thinkers and never push ourselves beyond our comfort zone in regards to how we view the world.
With respect, I read Dinus' post the exact opposite. IMO, he's saying open your mind, respect local customs, come on out and visit, if you like. But if you can't stomach the ethics, do the locals and yourself a favor -- rather than imposing your own, just stay away.
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dingus
Aug 4, 2006, 8:32 PM
Post #182 of 252
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In reply to: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: I,am very sad that this is the future of climbing. W.T.F. would guys like Lionel Terray, John Long, Hermann Buhl and John Harlin think of your rap bolted crack climbs, your stick clips and your ethics?
They would think, 'hey, maybe I'll sell those folks some books!'
And make some dough.
DMT
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edl
Aug 4, 2006, 8:43 PM
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If we can actually come to some kind of consensus, this may be worth continuing. Cool.
In reply to: No, I said that your "ethics" are hypocritical because you would allow a single bolt to be placed on any route. Bolts are anathma to "Leave No Trace." They are a permanent alteration of the rock. You need to change your acronym to LNTEWIIWMOSRP -- Leave No Trace, Except When It Interferes With My Own Selfish Recreational Persuits. Not so catchy, is it? But at least it would be honest.
Not so catchy, but definitely honest, and certainly practical. As discussed earlier, LNT is asymptotic. If you draw the line anywhere, it is more or less an arbitrary line, so some other justification is necessary. My justification is practicality. Sure, we can never leave no trace, and since sport climbing is here, it's not going anywhere so we need to learn to accept it. Thus I draw the line here:
In reply to: IMO sport climbs should be bolted, cracks should be led on gear, and as a comprimise, incipient cracks should be bolted where otherwise unprotectable if they are at a predominantly sport crag, and left as g, pg, r, or x if they are at a predominantly trad area. A line should be defined by it's actual character, not the nature of the routes around it, except in the case of incipient lines which I discussed above.
Seems sensible to me.
In reply to: That's not what asterisks designate. There is no way for anyone to have guessed that's what you intended.
Well then I'm glad I cleared that up, and it is cleared up, right?
In reply to: And that "truth" just happens to coincide with the type of climbing you like to do. What a coincidence!
And that type of climbing is crack climbing. I however recognize that sport climbing is not this evil villan and deserves it's place as well. I also happen to recognize that you can't sport climb without bolts, and thus I am willing to say that pure sport climbs can be allowed in a practically applicable LNT doctrine. Furthermore, I think such lines are ok to exist at any area, trad areas included. Conversely, we should not bolt cracks at sport areas. I do think however that said sport lines should follow some natural line up the rock, and be tastefully bolted. For an example of one of these see "Silver Salute" at Vedauwoo, WY. Call this hypocritical if you want, but I already discussed that above, toward the biginning of this particular post. BTW, this is what I have been arguing the whole time. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough about it. Damn, your almost sounding sensible yourself, lets keep that trend going. :wink:
Oh yes, I am a hypocrite. I did say I was done didn't I?
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kalcario
Aug 4, 2006, 9:05 PM
Post #184 of 252
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In reply to: No, I said that your "ethics" are hypocritical because you would allow a single bolt to be placed on any route. Bolts are anathma to "Leave No Trace." They are a permanent alteration of the rock.
Yes but you can also alter it back by removing the bolt and filling in the hole with epoxy and dirt. Done right, you can't tell there was ever a bolt there, which pretty much shoots down the whole "trashing the rock" line of thought. Bolts are in reality just another form of removable pro that leave no trace of ever having been there - if you do it right. It's pitons, not bolts, that do permanent and irrepairable damage - you can't fix pin scars.
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bones
Aug 4, 2006, 9:30 PM
Post #185 of 252
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Wow. Some people here are being reasonable and practical, others are not.
JT512: Anyone can focus in on particular words in a post and find some inconsistency in their argument. As someone whom I presume believes in reason and logic, I ask, do you think that all the "pro-bolter" arguments are valid/sound or strong/cogent? Please, be an equal opportunity logician.
Also, I would like to actually hear YOUR OWN thoughts on this issue, beyond just pointing out weaknesses in other arguments.
Iceman: Wow, I think you're going off the deep end. Do you honestly think that anyone who is interested in LNT, or something like it, is a left-wing, hippie Communist? Are you just all fired up after watching The O'Reily Factor?
I always figured that bolts were for safety, thus they are not necessary when a crack can be safely led with removable pro. I'm open to some interpretation on what "safe" is, but I think we're talking about a perfect splitter in good rock right? To me, something left outside on public land that is unnecessary is nothing more than trash (again, within reason).
I also come from the mindset that it's up to the individual to "improvise, adapt, and overcome" any obstacles in regard to something as trivial as a recreational activity that one CHOOSES to do. Thus I have little sympathy for someone who wants to climb a route, but refuses to learn the necessary technique to do so. About as much sympathy as I have for someone who wants to play football, but can't be bothered to run, throw, or catch.
I don't know, am I being unreasonable here?
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jt512
Aug 4, 2006, 10:10 PM
Post #186 of 252
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In reply to: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: I,am very sad that this is the future of climbing. W.T.F. would guys like Lionel Terray, John Long, Hermann Buhl and John Harlin think of your rap bolted crack climbs, your stick clips and your ethics? Rise to the difficulty, challange yourself and read some climbing history.
HAHAHAHA! Largo? He has rap bolted half the Santa Monica Mountains. Try learning a little bit about modern climbing.
Jay
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clayman
Aug 4, 2006, 10:49 PM
Post #187 of 252
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In reply to: Respect local styles, or stay the hell out. DMT
From one extremist to the next. You seem to be more irreproachable about your "local styles" than the point of view you declare to be outright zealotry.
Local styles aren't any more the end all be all of climbing styles than the LNT doctrine. What, if a group of climbers want to develop a crag that's home to an endangered species? Are we to say, o'well local ethics rule. It's always a compromise, IMO. Or what if they want to chip-n-glue a pristine wilderness cliff, because they're not capable of doing it as is?
Personally I don't support bolting otherwise protectable cracks, whether it's a lone crack in a see of sport climbs or whatever. However, a few bolted cracks don't mean diddly, I think enough people are of the opinion that obviously protectable routes shouldn't be bolted that it'll never amount to anything.
chris
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builttospill
Aug 4, 2006, 10:56 PM
Post #188 of 252
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In reply to: Of course not. But that added measure of safety? Hmmm... I guess you're not that hard-core bad ass you thought. Guess what, bolts are even safer! If you're so into putting it all out there, and doing it the "traditional" way, maybe you should go back to the machine nuts... Just a thought.
iceman: No offense, but this is just ridiculous. You consistently characterize trad climbers as those who are "elitist" or make themselves out to be "hard-core badasses" but the people in this thread aren't really the ones making that assertion. I certainly don't think I'm a badass because I climb above gear instead of bolts. I'm scared either way. You've put words in other people's mouths, and then taken a ridiculous stance based on those words.
The difference between bolts and trad pro versus the difference between cams and nuts is large, and if you can't see that, I'm just not sure how to explain it. I wont' delve into the "damage to the rock" argument, but one is drilling a hole into rock. The other two are both removable and leave no evidence of passage (for the most part). I'm sorry, but if this is lost on you, then it's truly hopeless.
And do you really want to debate the underlying reasons for the Civil War on a climbing message board?
JT: I realize that anyone who preaches an LNT doctrine is a hypocrite, because we all leave some trace on the world, but I think edl's recognition that it is an inherently hypocritical doctrine and his assertion that there should be practical applications of it is pretty damn reasonable. By extension, anyone that preaches the merits of recycling could be called a hypocrite, because they dno't recycle everything they use (some things can't be recycled). They also probably don't recycle everything that COULD be recycled, since they probably don't throw their bath water on their lawn, or recycle every scrap of paper that they have in their car, or what have you. These people should all give up their efforts because they're just damn hypocrites, right?
For such an obviously skilled logical thinker and debater, I think you're intentionally overlooking this point. LNT is impossible to make work to it's hoped-for end, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. as for 8 more bolts at a sport area....well who knows.....probably doesn't matter at all, I admit.
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dingus
Aug 4, 2006, 11:08 PM
Post #189 of 252
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In reply to: What, if a group of climbers want to develop a crag that's home to an endangered species?
If you can explain what an endangered species has to do with a bolt next to the crack I will be impressed. Such leaps of logic are what the internet is all about!
Local ethics RULE!
DMT
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bones
Aug 4, 2006, 11:45 PM
Post #190 of 252
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In reply to: Local ethics RULE!
Preach that religion brother!! Amen!!
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jt512
Aug 5, 2006, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: What, if a group of climbers want to develop a crag that's home to an endangered species?
I can explain! I can explain! An endangered species, the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog, caused Williamson Rock to be closed. Since we couldn't climb at Williamson anymore, we began to develop a new wall. The new wall has a crack line on it. The crack was formed by a flake. The flake is too loose to be protected by cams. So we bolted the crack.
How's that?!
Jay
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the_iceman
Aug 5, 2006, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: iceman: No offense, but this is just ridiculous. You consistently characterize trad climbers as those who are "elitist" or make themselves out to be "hard-core badasses" but the people in this thread aren't really the ones making that assertion. I certainly don't think I'm a badass because I climb above gear instead of bolts. I'm scared either way. You've put words in other people's mouths, and then taken a ridiculous stance based on those words.
Bolt hater's tend to characterize themselves that way with "if you're too much of a pussy then don't climb" I just turned the logic on them. It's not my actual belief that you should use machine nuts. I think you should use the safest gear you can. In some cases, that's a bolt.
In reply to: The difference between bolts and trad pro versus the difference between cams and nuts is large, and if you can't see that, I'm just not sure how to explain it. I wont' delve into the "damage to the rock" argument, but one is drilling a hole into rock. The other two are both removable and leave no evidence of passage (for the most part). I'm sorry, but if this is lost on you, then it's truly hopeless.
I've hashed this out again and again. Bolts are a semi permanent fixture. When they are removed, any damage that their presence may have caused is repaired.
In reply to: And do you really want to debate the underlying reasons for the Civil War on a climbing message board?
In reply to: JT: I realize that anyone who preaches an LNT doctrine is a hypocrite, because we all leave some trace on the world, but I think edl's recognition that it is an inherently hypocritical doctrine and his assertion that there should be practical applications of it is pretty damn reasonable. By extension, anyone that preaches the merits of recycling could be called a hypocrite, because they don't recycle everything they use (some things can't be recycled). They also probably don't recycle everything that COULD be recycled, since they probably don't throw their bath water on their lawn, or recycle every scrap of paper that they have in their car, or what have you. These people should all give up their efforts because they're just damn hypocrites, right?
Not to speak for Jay, but I think he's saying it's hypocritical to take the position of "We should only do enough damage to be able to do what I want to do" which is the epitome of hypocrisy.
In reply to: For such an obviously skilled logical thinker and debater, I think you're intentionally overlooking this point. LNT is impossible to make work to it's hoped-for end, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying. as for 8 more bolts at a sport area....well who knows.....probably doesn't matter at all, I admit.
Wrong, there are plenty of people who honestly live by the LNT line of thought. None of them that I know of, however, are climbers. If someone was advocating the banning of bolts, pitons, etc entirely. I'd have a little more respect for their cause. Although it wouldn't sway my opinion on the matter on bit.
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the_iceman
Aug 5, 2006, 1:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: What, if a group of climbers want to develop a crag that's home to an endangered species? I can explain! I can explain! An endangered species, the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog, caused Williamson Rock to be closed. Since we couldn't climb at Williamson anymore, we began to develop a new wall. The new wall has a crack line on it. The crack was formed by a flake. The flake is too loose to be protected by cams. So we bolted the crack. How's that?! Jay |
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bones
Aug 5, 2006, 1:37 AM
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In reply to: Although it wouldn't sway my opinion on the matter on bit.
Apparently, nothing will. You're as hard headed as they come.
In reply to: Bolt hater's tend to characterize themselves that way with "if you're too much of a sissy then don't climb" I just turned the logic on them.
Who's a bolt hater here? I'm more of a "if you're too much of a sissy that you can't climb perfectly protectable cracks in good rock by using trad pro, a top rope, or following someone else, then don't climb them" person.
Oh, and jt512, I'm still waiting for your opinion.
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the_iceman
Aug 5, 2006, 1:41 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Although it wouldn't sway my opinion on the matter on bit. Apparently, nothing will. You're as hard headed as they come. In reply to: Bolt hater's tend to characterize themselves that way with "if you're too much of a sissy then don't climb" I just turned the logic on them. Who's a bolt hater here? I'm more of a "if you're too much of a sissy that you can't climb perfectly protectable cracks in good rock by using trad pro, a top rope, or following someone else, then don't climb them" person. Oh, and jt512, I'm still waiting for your opinion.
Read through the first 10 pages of the thread, you'll spot them.
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the_iceman
Aug 5, 2006, 1:42 AM
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***UPDATE***
Donation sent to Angry for the Cock Punch Fund.
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bones
Aug 5, 2006, 1:54 AM
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In reply to: Read through the first 10 pages of the thread, you'll spot them.
Perhaps you can direct me to the post on this thread that contains such bolt hating propaganda.
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angry
Aug 5, 2006, 1:54 AM
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In reply to: ***UPDATE*** Donation sent to Angry for the c--- Punch Fund.
Whatever the fuck you sent me, it didn't pass the antiviral checks in my computer.
Mods take note, the_iceman did email me (I wanted to see if he'd really paypal me). I never opened that email. Whatever he sent did not pass the virus check my computer runs. So yes, he's one of "those guys".
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climbsomething
Aug 5, 2006, 4:13 AM
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In reply to: JT512: Anyone can focus in on particular words in a post and find some inconsistency in their argument.
In reply to: Also, I would like to actually hear YOUR OWN thoughts on this issue, beyond just pointing out weaknesses in other arguments.
In reply to: but I think we're talking about a perfect splitter in good rock right? |
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