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lazyjammin
Apr 11, 2005, 9:25 PM
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Iam doing a semester sociology paper on sports and the biases of race class and gender as well as the ways in which participation in a sport will reduce the impact of those differences. The main focus of it will be on the way in which those differences will be discounted due to athletic prowess, or mere participation in the sport. At the same time I will be examining the economic bias of sports, such as climbing and skiing, and contrasting those sports to school sponsored sports such as football, basketball, and soccer. So far it seems that there is less racial and economic background diversity in the 'adrenaline sports' and this seems to be due to the amount of money necessary for them. However in these sports it is easier for women to enter into and become a part of, possibly due to the individual nature of them.
So now Iam basically looking for information, but if you have any suggestions as to the scope of my research or other sports/practices I should look at I would be thankful. I also have questions which I hoped other climbers would be willing to answer, either in the forum or a private message.
What is your race and gender?
What is your current income?
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time?
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant?
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class?
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is?
If there are any questions anyone feels I have missed or if there is any comments please feel free to post them. Thank you.
J.P.
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ter_bee
Apr 11, 2005, 11:28 PM
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:arrow: White female.
:arrow: Um. You tell US how much money you make. (I am not poor.)
:arrow: Race is totally irrelevant in one's physical capacity to climb; the financial aspects are discussed below. I think that gender differences in capacity are there, but they seem to only affect the beginners and the really rabid climbers. My theory is that women have less muscle when they start, but gain enough quickly if they climb regularly. Second theory: women aren't as insane as men about climbing. We know we need to eat, sleep, etcetera. (No offense guys, but I don't read about a lot of female climbers living in parking lots on here.)
In reply to: Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class?
:arrow: I do think this is an interesting theory. I don't see a lot of minority climbers. But climbing outdoors is generally free and there is bouldering everywhere, so I wonder if it's just a socio-economic thing. On the other hand, I would never have gotten bold enough to climb outside if I hadn't had a year to learn a bit of technique and gain a little strength in a gym. That's expensive.
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ter_bee
Apr 11, 2005, 11:56 PM
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One further comment: it seems to me that this paper you're writing will rely an awful lot on speculation if you focus on the race issue. If they are anything like I was as a female physics student, minority climbers will not feel responsible for the choices other minorities have made. Other minorities may just laugh at you. And people here, if they are racist (which I doubt), are probably not going to expose their prejudice to you.
My point: I suspect the gender issue would be a healthier, meatier focus. And dude: you could get an entire paper out of the 'climbing versus sex' posts, in which guys repeatedly confuse 'a girl' with 'sex,' and claim to be unwilling to make sacrifices for women that I suspect they would make for anyone they really loved who WASN'T a potential mate. :roll:
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philfell
Apr 12, 2005, 12:06 AM
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I think you should seperate sking into alpine and backcountry. In my general observatoins the people who go to resorts to ski have a higher income than those who go into the backcountry.
Also I wouldn't consider climbing an adrenaline sport. Most of the people I climb with are different characters than those I see in other "so-called adrenaline sports"
But to answer your question:
White male
About 25k
About 20k
It dosen't matter to me the race gender of who I'm climbing with
I have not been witness to biases in climbing (other than those 14 year old girls who crush it, then snicker at me when I can't even get off the ground on the problem their working on)
I don't really pay attention to the diversity in the climbing world. I live in a place that isn't diverse at the comunity level and it stays that way at the crags. But where I am is a really small part of the climbing world as a whole.
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scuclimber
Apr 12, 2005, 12:07 AM
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I don't really feel like filling out the survey right now. I do have some help for you on the skiing portion though... there's a book called Downward Slide about the corporate ski industry. I highly recommend it (it has an obvious liberal bias, you have to read between the lines a bit, this coming from a liberal :wink: ). There was also an NPR program on race and skiing a couple of weeks ago. It may have been on Talk of the Nation, I can't remember. Try NPR's website for a transcript. Good luck with the paper. I may get some time later to fill out your survey, but I have to leave for work soon and I want to do it justice, if I do fill it out.
Colin
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ginger_ninja
Apr 12, 2005, 12:22 AM
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In reply to: However in these sports it is easier for women to enter into and become a part of, possibly due to the individual nature of them.
*sigh*
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gunksgoer
Apr 12, 2005, 12:38 AM
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This is sort of a delicate issue, and i dont mean to offend anyone by anything i say.
:arrow: What is your race and gender? white male
:arrow: What is your current income? not enough
:arrow: What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? my parents have some dough
:arrow: Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant?
well, i dont personally mind it at all, im not racist. it just seems there arnt many african americans who climb at all. i dont think ive ever met someone from that background who climbed seriously. just an observation.
:arrow: Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? not really, but some people will say stuff like "oh, that climbers black, he'll have stopped by the end of the month" just because it seems african american climbers are definatly a minoroty in the climbing world.
:arrow: Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? ive seen american, english, french, german, eastern european, russian, chinese, japanese, indian, australian, canadian, venezuelan, and people from many other different backgrounds climbing, but it seems that white males are the most prominent group. many people would say that people of certain races wich dont have many climbers dont climb because they cant afford it. i think that cant be right because theyre are white dirtbag climbers who make just as little if not less $.
good luck on your paper thing.
-ws
edited once to put in little arrow things to make this easier to read.
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princely
Apr 12, 2005, 12:46 AM
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I too am a sociologist type, and let me say that I will enjoy watching how people react to your request.
Allow me to recommend that you check your University's research ethics guidelines. They most certainly will recommend that you do not do what you have done without University approval, and I'm gonna take a guess here and assume that if they had seen your research proposal, they would require that you tweak your methodology a bit.
Talk to your prof about the type of reaction you get here, and see what he/she says. If they don't give you much attention, find a research methods prof in the department and ask what they think.
I will throw this article out for good measure though, as I think there is a lot to discuss in it - http://www.open.ac.uk/socialsciences/necp/necpsubset/necpinfopops/pdfwp%205.pdf
Too many will dismiss this as academic babble, but the ideas presented are very much worthy of discussion.
Look forward to reading your thoughts on both issues.
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rrrADAM
Apr 12, 2005, 12:56 AM
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-White male
-Not going there on the net, but I'll say I'm well paid and my needs and wants are met
-Relative term depending on geographic location, as I live in Southern California... Middle Class I suppose
-Nope
-Yes, not much (racial) diversity... I would guess that climbing does not appeal to all, just as I see the same amount of diversity in all "extreme" sports
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josephgdawson
Apr 12, 2005, 12:59 AM
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Climbing is racist; too many honkeys do it. Money is racist cuz it is green. Chalk is white, see, climbing is racist. It is all the white male honkey cracker rich thief's fault cuz my socialist college professor taught me so. Celebrate stupidity - vote Democrat.
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climbsomething
Apr 12, 2005, 1:02 AM
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ter_bee just slayed you nicely. It's all speculation.
I remember when I was an earnest little soc major...
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mistertyler
Apr 12, 2005, 1:42 AM
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What is your race and gender?
White male.
What is your current income?
I quit my job last year to take some time off, so at the moment, $0.00.
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time?
I was the director of technology for a hedge fund and fairly compensated. (I'd rather not divulge income specifics online.)
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant?
Entirely unimportant.
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class?
I've never witnessed any real bias; in fact, I'd say that climbers in general are a very "tight" group.
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is?
From what I've seen there is a lot of diversity in the climbing world, although in this country I will say that I haven't seen many black climbers. I do see climbers from many other ethnicities, however (Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc.) Assuming that black climbers are under-represented statistically, I would guess that it just hasn't caught on within their culture yet.
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gothcopter
Apr 12, 2005, 1:58 AM
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I always thought it was strange how few black people I saw out climbing. I think I've seen maybe 3 or 4 black people in gyms, and none outdoors? All the black folks I have seen climbing seemed to enjoy it, so it always seemed strange I didn't see more. I mean, c'mon, black people love me! I was talking about this with a buddy, and he explained it thusly:
"Dude, we're in the South. Going out in the woods with a bunch of white guys and a rope just isn't that appealing to black people."
I never thought of it that way before, but I've felt sad about it ever since. I think we have a long way to go toward ending racism in this country, and it seems like we're headed in the wrong direction.
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hello_heino
Apr 12, 2005, 2:08 AM
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What is your race and gender? 100 Meters, Hermaphrodite
What is your current income? Nada
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? Zilch, zero, low class, hoping to move into a double-wide
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? yes
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? Of course
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? yes, it is mostly homogenous. Cultural differences.
And now my question to you.....
Why are you wasting time with this banality? This understanding will help us do what...further diversify climbing?
Bring it to the underpriviledged?
I hope you are wasting your own money on that education and not someone else's.
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harryhood
Apr 12, 2005, 2:31 AM
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In reply to: ter_bee just slayed you nicely. It's all speculation. I remember when I was an earnest little soc major...
I wouldn't call it a slaying necessarily, but rather a misunderstanding of what social science (and hard science for that matter) is about. The way it normally works is you have a question (maybe based on observation, maybe based on reading) and you want to answer that question. You speculate on the possible answers to that question. These answers are called hypotheses. Then what you do is you test your hypotheses. Sometimes, when you don't have enough data you do a survey to gather more data. Then you can see if your speculation turns out to be upheld by the data. That's not to say that you've proven anything, because no science ever really proves anything... you just have to keep testing different hypotheses and disproving them... the ones that last the longest without being disproven are more likely to be accurate.
As for the hypotheses about race/gender/money in sports, I would say that there are definitely way more white folks participating in these kinds of sports in North America, and it may have something to do with money (which often correlates with 'race' because of some structural tendencies in our society for visible minorities, and especially 'African Americans' as someone called them, to have less money). Ski hills are pretty white places, and it's not just the snow. Of course, in the last couple years of riding on the east coast I've seen a lot more 'African Americans' on the hils than I noticed out west. Chances are good that it's a matter of demographic differences and not a change in the past couple years in the overall numbers of visible minority skiers. This would make a good PhD topic, partly because it needs huge data to make any real claims.
Good on ya for going for the survey for a term paper (it's a term paper right?). Also, as far as research ethics goes, this would have no problem getting clearance. It's an internet forum and thus is part of the public domain. The only minor sticking point is that the kid lobbed out a survey (with an explanation which basically gives informed consent on the part of anyone who responds) without contact info and the statement that anyone who responds can get in touch and withdraw their comments if they'd like.
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dwc
Apr 12, 2005, 2:41 AM
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White male, upper middle class family.
I don't think race or gender has much of an impact on climbing at any level, beginner, intermediate or pro. There is a lot of diversity in climbing world on a global basis, in terms of gender and race.
In America, I have seen less diversity. Climbing in America is often percieved as a white middle/upper middle male endevour. Personally I have noted that the gender bias in the sport is slightly skewed male, but only slightly, completely independent of ability, meaning that their seem to be slightly more male beginners, slightly more male intermediates, and slightly more male pros.
I see a proportionate number of hispanic and asian climbers relative to the population in my area; however, I see disproportionately few persons of african descent within the local climbing community.
A quick note, I think that climbing is primarily a middle to upper middle class pursuit, most of the "dirtbags" I know went to boarding school. Slumming is a luxury afforded only to those who can afford it.
Oh, yeah, your methodology is weak. Please take that critically, not personally. This is not even close to a "random" sample group.
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chalkfree
Apr 12, 2005, 2:57 AM
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I don't know that I'd make a paper out of this, but that said, this exact conversation came up today between me and a climbing partner. One of my other climbing partners, my girlfriend in fact, is african american and we were speculating as to why she's the only black climber either of us has ever seen.
From my experience in the BWCA I can honestly say that for some reason, whatever it is african americans tend not to camp etiher, or kayak either. Again no idea why, in an attempt not to be racist, I'm going to make some general statements that are "stereotypical" but in my opinion describe the situation.
Firstly the girlfriend tells me that a dispropotionate amount of african americans lack the ability to swim. Also I have observed that in general african americans have more of an aversion to being cold than anglos. Lastly I have observed that african americans are somewhat less likely to be outdoorsy in general.
I'm not going to pretend that helped and I'm going to show this to "the girlfriend" and see if she's got any insight on it. Go ahead and accuse me of being a KKK member if you like.
Hope this helped with your paper....
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boardline22
Apr 12, 2005, 3:24 AM
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What is your race and gender? Caucasin, Male
What is your current income? $20 a month
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? I'm still young and my parents bought me nothin, stil $20 a month
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? Yeah
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? no not on bit
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? no I mainly onyl see white dudes and dudets
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ter_bee
Apr 12, 2005, 3:45 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ter_bee just slayed you nicely. It's all speculation. I remember when I was an earnest little soc major... I wouldn't call it a slaying necessarily, but rather a misunderstanding of what social science (and hard science for that matter) is about. The way it normally works is you have a question (maybe based on observation, maybe based on reading) and you want to answer that question. You speculate on the possible answers to that question. These answers are called hypotheses. Then what you do is you test your hypotheses. Sometimes, when you don't have enough data you do a survey to gather more data. Then you can see if your speculation turns out to be upheld by the data.
Well, slaying wasn't really my intention, but I do think that I understand hypothesis testing a bit better than you think, harryhood. The bit I am suspicious of: that responses to this type of survey will allow him to contradict anything.
I think the statement "There are disproportionately few African American skiers and climbers" lives in the realm of fact. (It can at least be tested and contradicted or affirmed.) What is left to determine is the reason.
Possible null hypothesis: Because of the cost of the sports.
Another: because the typical participant is racist and unwelcoming.
A third: because African Americans aren't interested in this type of sport.
Do you really think he'll be able to contradict any of these statement with the responses from this survey?
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j_ung
Apr 12, 2005, 4:21 PM
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In reply to: And now my question to you..... Why are you wasting time with this banality? This understanding will help us do what...further diversify climbing? Bring it to the underpriviledged? I hope you are wasting your own money on that education and not someone else's.
There's such a thing as education for education's sake. This is a school project, not government-funded cancer research. When I was five years old in kindergarten, I learned how to color in the lines. It wasn't my goal to bring about another Renaissance.
White male; current income is private (sorry). I was middle-middle class when I started and consider myself the same now. I think race is unimportant in terms of ability, if that's what you're getting at, but obviously, race does affect whether or not you will become a climber in America. I have not witnessed biases, unless you count the obvious lack of relative diversity in our sport. Perhaps I have witnessed so few cases of racial bias because of the lack of diversity...
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iknowfear
Apr 12, 2005, 4:58 PM
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Ok, im a white european middle/upperclass male. & I could not care less about race, creed or color at the crag.
But, I do care about research. (thats part of my job.) so here are a few suggestions for a slightly more systematical approach:
Do a Research plan. WHAT do you want to answer? ter_bee has some nice hints about hypothesis testing...
Think about your questions. Have them proofread by at least 2 scholars to guarantee that the questions are not suggestive.
Hint: People generally lie about their income. They generally do not lie about their expenses or taxes (from which you could deduce the income)
Create a WebForm (ex. in PHP) there are good tools for that (no coding skills required), and your university will probably have one at your disposal.
Then come here and post a link to your survey, and I will gladly answer it.
Oh, and doing surveys on the Internet creates a bias (mostly middle/upperclass population)
Best of luck for your paper!
Cheers,
Sim
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drector
Apr 12, 2005, 5:31 PM
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I'm not sure why everyone excludes their income unless they somehow are embarassed or feel it will attract kidnappers. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
White. Male.
At or above $100K. Before and now.
I have no idea why minorities, women, or any other group climbs or does not climb. I have climbed with a black man and a hispanic man on numerous occasions. Beyond those two, I have seen no other non-whites at the crags.
Reserch your heart out. You might not explain this but no one could explain anything if they hadn't tried. If you do stmble upon climbing and race/gender answers then be sure to let us know.
Dave
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puffypika
Apr 12, 2005, 5:56 PM
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What is your race and gender? white male
What is your current income? around $12,000.00-cannot make to much money while going to grad school
What was your household income when you started climbing, essentially what class were you in, and if you started young what class were your parents at the time? i started climbing at age 15, but i actually started working at age 14 so i payed for my own gear, my family was middle class
Do you feel that the race/class/gender of a climber is unimportant? it is very unimportant what race/class/gender as long as you enjoy it
Have you ever been involved in or witnessed biases in the sport due to gender/race/class? i have only seen biases in regards to gender but no race or class...every sport has the bigots, the cocky, the fad attempts, the unethical...but then there are the ones who love it from head to toe-the promoters-the ones who live and breath the sport...hopefully society doesnt see some moranic climber and just assume the rest are like that
Do you feel like there is not much diversity in the climbing world? And if so, why do you thing that is? i see a diversity as in gender but not in race or class...when i started climbing the males were the majority but it has worked its way closer to even, which is great...as for race and class-i have no clue why that would be...maybe it is in joint relation to where you grew up, as in suburbs, inner city, country...who knows...i just wish everyone could just experience the sport just once.
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dingus
Apr 12, 2005, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: I'm not sure why everyone excludes their income unless they somehow are embarassed or feel it will attract kidnappers. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Well, I wouldn't make light of kidnappers personally. You don't walk down a dark alley with $20's hanging out your pockets, whistling doo dah doo dah, now doo yah?
And too, this reluctance to discuss pay is a pretty funny joke perpetrated upon us by those who employ us.
In a union shop everyone pretty much knows or can guess what everyone else makes. They have learned that while it may be uncomfortable on an individual comparison basis to discuss compensation, it is to their great advantage to know this collectively.
And yet, in many non-union professions or shops or places of employment, discussing compensation amoung co-workers is nearly a taboo.
Why?
Because these people have had an awful joke played on them. They have been conditioned to negotiate in the dark (fools!). KNOWING what your coworkers make is a crucial component of any salary negotation and maintaining some whimsical notion that 'proper people don't ask' hurts you where it counts... in the pocket book.
DMT
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