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fracture
May 23, 2005, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: I like how people always say pullups don't make you a better climber, yet most top tier climbers these days can do a sick number of pullups, either one arm, one finger, or two arms etc.
Dave Graham tries to do a one arm pullup in the video "Small Amazing Things". He can't. At the time he'd done V15 (well he calls it V14 now) and 5.14d.
In reply to: Even John Gill was seen doing these feats.
What do you mean "even"?
My understanding (from reading his comments here and on his website) is that John Gill saw value in these sorts of feats even if they weren't helpful to his climbing. He was all into difficult gymnastic movement, and one arm pullups (and one arm front levers :shock:) fit right in.... (But maybe he'll post up and tell us about it).
In reply to: Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe? How about a poll?
As I mentioned in the other thread, I know someone who has redpointed 5.12a who can barely do a single pullup (i.e., with kicking for momentum and such).
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taualum23
May 23, 2005, 4:25 PM
Post #27 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: *Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe?* Moi. ... You climb 13's and can't do 10 pullups? I find that truly remarkeable. It's not that remarkable. I (and many others) are the same way. ;)
Wow. I am surprised. Only becasue the people I know who have climbed 13a can all do at least 10. Thinking about it, I can only think of one male climber I know that climbs 12a that can't do 10 pullups. The two or three people I know who have psuhed grades even further can do many, amny more.
Edit: Not that doing pullups MAKES one a better climber, or that you need nothing but raw power to climb, but but I am amazed that so many people climbing 13a don't have the strength to weight to do 10 pullups.
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jt512
May 23, 2005, 4:50 PM
Post #28 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: *Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe?* Moi. If you're a young kid, then by all means, do pull-ups till your eyeballs bleed. But I know guys who can do one-arm pull-ups who can't onsight 5.11 consistently. It's actually better to come to this sport with little in the way of upper body strength because it forces you to learn technique and use your head. Endurance and technique trumps power - up to about 13b, anyway. You climb 13's and can't do 10 pullups? I find that truly remarkeable. Amazing, and I sincerely doubt I will ever climb a 13, but 10 pullups REALLY is not a lot. I didn't think 13 would be possible with such a low strength to wait ratio.
I think you have just verbalized the very misconception about pullup strength that I have been referring to. Watch someone climb a 5.13. The moves don't resemble pullups at all. The power to move upward comes largely from the lower body. Finger strength, necessary to latch small holds, is important, but isn't trained by normal pullups. Pulling motion in the upper body is usually across the body, with the body rotating toward the upper arm, again not a pullup.
-Jay
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jt512
May 23, 2005, 4:51 PM
Post #29 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: *Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe?* Moi. If you're a young kid, then by all means, do pull-ups till your eyeballs bleed. But I know guys who can do one-arm pull-ups who can't onsight 5.11 consistently. It's actually better to come to this sport with little in the way of upper body strength because it forces you to learn technique and use your head. Endurance and technique trumps power - up to about 13b, anyway. You climb 13's and can't do 10 pullups? I find that truly remarkeable. Amazing, and I sincerely doubt I will ever climb a 13, but 10 pullups REALLY is not a lot. I didn't think 13 would be possible with such a low strength to wait ratio.
I think you have just verbalized the very misconception about pullup strength that I have been referring to. Watch someone climb a 5.13. The moves don't resemble pullups at all. The power to move upward comes largely from the lower body. Finger strength, necessary to latch small holds, is important, but isn't trained by normal pullups. Pulling motion in the upper body is usually across the body, with the body rotating toward the upper arm, again not a pullup.
-Jay
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taualum23
May 23, 2005, 4:59 PM
Post #30 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: *Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe?* Moi. If you're a young kid, then by all means, do pull-ups till your eyeballs bleed. But I know guys who can do one-arm pull-ups who can't onsight 5.11 consistently. It's actually better to come to this sport with little in the way of upper body strength because it forces you to learn technique and use your head. Endurance and technique trumps power - up to about 13b, anyway. You climb 13's and can't do 10 pullups? I find that truly remarkeable. Amazing, and I sincerely doubt I will ever climb a 13, but 10 pullups REALLY is not a lot. I didn't think 13 would be possible with such a low strength to wait ratio. I think you have just verbalized the very misconception about pullup strength that I have been referring to. Watch someone climb a 5.13. The moves don't resemble pullups at all. The power to move upward comes largely from the lower body. Finger strength, necessary to latch small holds, is important, but isn't trained by normal pullups. Pulling motion in the upper body is usually across the body, with the body rotating toward the upper arm, again not a pullup. -Jay
Of course, the individual moves do not look like pullups, I agree 100%. I have had enough close friendhips with very strong climbers to have had the opportunity to watch 13d and 14a sport routes get climbed. All I was expressing was amazement that the power and strength to weight that IS required (for surely, you concede that even if it is not neccesary, upper end climbers tend to develop some strong muscles in their upper body) would not translate into being able to (not that is neccesary) do 10 + pullups.
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aikibujin
May 23, 2005, 5:23 PM
Post #31 of 213
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In reply to: *But I know guys who can do one-arm pull-ups who can't onsight 5.11 consistently. It's actually better to come to this sport with little in the way of upper body strength because it forces you to learn technique and use your head. Endurance and technique trumps power - up to about 13b, anyway.
Coming from the other side of the equation, I also arrived at this same conclusion. I'm one of those guys who can do one-arm pull-ups, yet I can't even onsight 5.10s. When I started climbing two years ago, I was already pretty strong from many years of martial arts. I could do 10+ pullups before I start climbing, but I actually felt my strength has hindered me in learning good technique. I mean, my technique has certainly improved some since the first day I threw myself on the wall clinging to the holds for dear life, but the improvement is very slow. And when I get into a hard sequence, I still tend to try to overpower it, rather than work out the best movement. I try to focus on learning technique, and limit my workout to the opposing muscles, my core strength, and aerobic conditioning. Yet I've been gaining strength even though I don't specifically train for it. I believe it's because I tend to use my strength when I'm climbing, in return I get stronger. Since I started climbing, I've gradually been able to do human tricks like one-arm pullup, dragonflags, front levers. Fun stuff to do at parties, but it has not helped to improve my climbing grade, if at all.
So my opinion is that if you're training pullups for the Marine, go for it. But if you're training pullups for climbing, then you will be disappointed with the result.
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dynamo_
May 23, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #32 of 213
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I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup. The first 50, or so feet was 5.7ish crack climb that most anyone could do. Then came a roof that protruded 6' away from the wall. A horizontal crack/slab made for an easy hand over hand "walk" out to the edge, while hanging. From there, it was two or three pull ups on horizontal cracks and jugs until you could get a foot placement. The first time I climbed it, no problem. The second, I was a little pumped, and it was harder. The third, I bailed at the edge of the roof.
Just my perspective on the situation. If I were stronger, the lats and triceps type stronger that pull ups would help, I could've done it the third time.
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nd2boostt
May 23, 2005, 6:07 PM
Post #33 of 213
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In reply to: I like how people always say pullups don't make you a better climber, yet most top tier climbers these days can do a sick number of pullups, either one arm, one finger, or two arms etc. Even John Gill was seen doing these feats. yeah climbing is more than doing pullups, but one thing I know is that I have ben doing weighted pullups lately and it is helping me defeat my plateau. Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe? How about a poll?
I can climb 5.11's, and I struggle to do one full pullup. I can do maybe five "half-pullups" in a row. But maybe that's because I'm just a girl. :D
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taualum23
May 23, 2005, 6:09 PM
Post #34 of 213
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AHA! Proof! Pullups will help you be able to climb 5.7. 7 X 3 laps = yes, that's right a 5.21
Fully 6 grades harder than realization! Take that naysayers!
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jt512
May 23, 2005, 6:12 PM
Post #35 of 213
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In reply to: I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup. The first 50, or so feet was 5.7ish crack climb that most anyone could do. Then came a roof that protruded 6' away from the wall. A horizontal crack/slab made for an easy hand over hand "walk" out to the edge, while hanging. From there, it was two or three pull ups on horizontal cracks and jugs until you could get a foot placement. The first time I climbed it, no problem. The second, I was a little pumped, and it was harder. The third, I bailed at the edge of the roof. Just my perspective on the situation. If I were stronger, the lats and triceps type stronger that pull ups would help, I could've done it the third time.
And if you had better technique, you could have used your feet instead of climbing the route like a circus stunt.
-Jay
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nd2boostt
May 23, 2005, 6:20 PM
Post #36 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup. The first 50, or so feet was 5.7ish crack climb that most anyone could do. Then came a roof that protruded 6' away from the wall. A horizontal crack/slab made for an easy hand over hand "walk" out to the edge, while hanging. From there, it was two or three pull ups on horizontal cracks and jugs until you could get a foot placement. The first time I climbed it, no problem. The second, I was a little pumped, and it was harder. The third, I bailed at the edge of the roof. Just my perspective on the situation. If I were stronger, the lats and triceps type stronger that pull ups would help, I could've done it the third time. And if you had better technique, you could have used your feet instead of climbing the route like a circus stunt. -Jay
Seems like there's always more than one way to climb a route. Some people muscle their way through, others use technique. Eventually lack of technique catches up with you...better to learn the right way the first time around. Nothing against pullups - they can make you stronger. But too much upper body strength probably means you're more likely to climb with your arms.
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nedsurf
May 23, 2005, 6:56 PM
Post #37 of 213
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Would anyone say the dangler at the gunks is a "pull up" route?
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scotchie
May 23, 2005, 7:09 PM
Post #38 of 213
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In reply to: I like how people always say pullups don't make you a better climber, yet most top tier climbers these days can do a sick number of pullups, either one arm, one finger, or two arms etc. Even John Gill was seen doing these feats. yeah climbing is more than doing pullups, but one thing I know is that I have ben doing weighted pullups lately and it is helping me defeat my plateau. Find me someone who can climb 5.13 and who can only do less than 10 pullups. Or even someone who climbs 5.12 maybe? How about a poll?
I remember seeing a video where Alex Lowe and a couple other hot-shots were climbing Trango. Alex was sick for a couple days while the other 2 were setting up fixed ropes for hauling. When Alex began to feel better, he did 100 pullups to prove that he had recovered (and at that point he was still sniffling)!
I think there must be a difference between the muscle endurance required to climb 5000 ft of more moderate routes + tons of jumar'ing up-and-down fixed ropes, vs the grip-strength and skill/balance required to climb a few short but extremely difficult routes.
It just depends on what you want to do. It seems that the world's best climbers have both abilities.
I think the pull-ups training advice would depend on various factors (namely your age, body type, and existing training regimen).
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hyhuu
May 23, 2005, 7:16 PM
Post #39 of 213
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Absolutely not. It's a short hand-traverse with a couple heel hooks.
In reply to: Would anyone say the dangler at the gunks is a "pull up" route? |
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dynamo_
May 23, 2005, 7:34 PM
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In reply to: And if you had better technique, you could have used your feet instead of climbing the route like a circus stunt. -Jay
With my less than perfect technique, I was attempting to justify the benefits of having stronger lats, triceps, etc., as they would result from pull ups.
Regardless, I would be interested in knowing what the "proper" technique would be. But, as I am not climbing with anyone much more experienced than I am with the technique and finesse moves that it seems alot of you more experienced climber tout, I have failed to get that instruction. I'll work on it. Thanks.
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mistertyler
May 24, 2005, 5:21 PM
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In reply to: I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup.
Are you referring to Cashmere? If so, better technique should definitely make it possible for you to pull that roof without having to do a pullup. It's been a while since I did it, but I think I tried keeping my arms a little straighter, turned my hips, got a foot up over the roof, moved my hands up, and then stood up.
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dirtineye
May 24, 2005, 6:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup. Are you referring to Cashmere? If so, better technique should definitely make it possible for you to pull that roof without having to do a pullup. It's been a while since I did it, but I think I tried keeping my arms a little straighter, turned my hips, got a foot up over the roof, moved my hands up, and then stood up.
His description sounds just like Casmere (sp as in the guide), except the crack up to the roof is about 5.4 or 5.5. Casmere is the easiest roof (where you can actually hang with both feet off) you will ever meet, it is rated 5.7 for a reason.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO A PULL UP AT ALL to climb this route in great style and comfort.
When you have worked your hands out as far as you can to the left, swing with arms slightly bent, swing both feet up onto the ledge, and lock your toes and calves onto the ledge. You can hang there all day by both legs and one arm and place gear above you. You can then scoot your butt up onto the ledge and sit up. All you have to do is hang for a second of huge holds.
I have demonstrated this interesting method several times, it never fails to get some laughs.
My feeling about pullups is this: If you are doing pullups to train lockoff, they help. If you think you are going to haul yourself up a climb and that more pullups are a good way to do this, you are wasting a lot of energy. These are two very different ways to do pullups!
The ability to hold on and to lock off is extremely important, the ability to haul yourself up by arm strength is minimaly important.
The best lines JT ever wrote are:
In reply to: The moves don't resemble pullups at all. The power to move upward comes largely from the lower body. Finger strength, necessary to latch small holds, is important, but isn't trained by normal pullups. Pulling motion in the upper body is usually across the body, with the body rotating toward the upper arm, again not a pullup. -Jay |
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wyo_rock_man
May 24, 2005, 7:31 PM
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So far I tend to agree with the idea that having strength instead of good technique can be a hinderance to progression at some point in the game. That said, what are some things we can do that will help build better technique? How to build footwork skills and so forth. Any suggestions?
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sinshan
May 24, 2005, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: i can do infinity of pull-ups, sometimes a few more if it's morning time. and i'm climbing hard 5.6d on sport. maybe 5.4- when i decide to " trad (TM)" (but i really only " trad (TM)" when some elitist route first accentist has failed to bolt the crack for me). i think i'll let the evidence speak for itself.
love it. Truly, love it. hilarious!
:wink:
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alpnclmbr1
May 24, 2005, 7:57 PM
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The best place to practice pullups is in the middle of a steep jug route.
I hardly ever do pullups anymore,(see above) but I would have to say that most 5.11 and under climbers would be well served by working on them to one degree or another.
Being able to lock off with one arm is key to climbing harder routes.
One more point. Gym climbing tends to emphasize sideways moves instead of straight pulls. (mostly due to low ceilings)
Most all of the old school greats trained pull ups at one point or another.
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dynamo_
May 24, 2005, 8:05 PM
Post #46 of 213
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In reply to: In reply to: I climbed laps on a route this weekend at Palisades in Alabama that required a literal pullup. Are you referring to Cashmere? If so, better technique should definitely make it possible for you to pull that roof without having to do a pullup. It's been a while since I did it, but I think I tried keeping my arms a little straighter, turned my hips, got a foot up over the roof, moved my hands up, and then stood up.
It was cashmere. My brother and I set up a top rope and each climbed it(or attempted to) three times. What you've described makes sense. I'll try that very thing next time I'm up there.
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dynamo_
May 24, 2005, 8:06 PM
Post #47 of 213
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In reply to: And if you had better technique, you could have used your feet instead of climbing the route like a circus stunt.-Jay
I like the "circus stunt" comment. Now that I think about it, that's right on target. :shock:
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ikefromla
May 24, 2005, 8:14 PM
Post #48 of 213
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In reply to: So far I tend to agree with the idea that having strength instead of good technique can be a hinderance to progression at some point in the game. That said, what are some things we can do that will help build better technique? How to build footwork skills and so forth. Any suggestions? |
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dynamo_
May 24, 2005, 8:20 PM
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In reply to: His description sounds just like Casmere (sp as in the guide), except the crack up to the roof is about 5.4 or 5.5. Casmere is the easiest roof (where you can actually hang with both feet off) you will ever meet, it is rated 5.7 for a reason. YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO A PULL UP AT ALL to climb this route in great style and comfort. When you have worked your hands out as far as you can to the left, swing with arms slightly bent, swing both feet up onto the ledge, and lock your toes and calves onto the ledge. You can hang there all day by both legs and one arm and place gear above you. You can then scoot your butt up onto the ledge and sit up. All you have to do is hang for a second of huge holds. I have demonstrated this interesting method several times, it never fails to get some laughs.
It was easy. I just got worn out. It was the last climb of the day. The wall up to the roof was nothing. The roof will be easier next time if I utilize better technique. In fact, I "circus stunted" out the wall in overhand position. In retrospect, underhanding it would have made for a much easier heel hook once I ran out past where my I could reach the wall with my feet.
On another note, we climbed "Succumbing to Midnight" and "9 to5" as well and had a good time.
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bluenose
May 24, 2005, 8:42 PM
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To the OP;
Plateaued on pullups, do as many as you can. then get a lift up to the top position (I just step up on a chair) and lower yourself SLOWLY and repeat until all you can do is drop. That'll bust you out.
As for pullups and climbing, it's all about specifity. It's the same with pretty much any sport. Want to climb better, go climb and climber harder.
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Re: pullups
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