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carabiner96
May 3, 2007, 2:16 PM
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saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL
Well, we have physical evidence of AIDs, as in people dying.
Physical evidence of alien failure would be nice.
BTW, worst comprison ever.
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j_ung
May 3, 2007, 2:18 PM
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saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL
Well, there are some subtle differences between the two. 
I may be one of CCH's biggest detractors online right now, and I too am at least a little curious to see the pics -- and curious to know why they haven't been posted yet. It seems we're getting little but silence from pretty much everybody who's involved directly.
(This post was edited by j_ung on May 3, 2007, 2:19 PM)
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bobruef
May 3, 2007, 3:49 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL Well, we have physical evidence of AIDs, as in people dying. Physical evidence of alien failure would be nice. BTW, worst comprison ever.
While it may not be the best comparison ever, your argument against his logic is no more sound. If the physical evidence of AID's existence is people dying, then one could argue that the physical evidence proving the existence of faulty CCH cams is people decking and/or getting injured.
I too would like to see more substatial physical evidence. At this point, though, In the absence of said evidence, I'm tending to give CCH a little less of the benefit of the doubt. |
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medicus
May 3, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #29 of 112
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m2j1s wrote: obviously pictures are the only proof of a failed cam, so what is taking so long?
So if I handed you a failed alien, you would not consider it proof, but would only accept a picture?
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bobruef
May 3, 2007, 3:58 PM
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j_ung wrote: Nice, Bob! Thanks! I hope is well in Maryland-land.
Thanks, no problem.
I just got to thinking that the casual RC.com lurker might not be getting the whole picture here. I was suprised when I did a search, and remembered all of these threads. I think people need to keep all of this in perspective (i.e.- we're not just talking about 1 or 2 cams here).
Another thing to consider is that the amount of failures that have been reported here and at Supertopo likely represent just a sampling of the total population of Aliens.
As for Maryland-land, things are good. The wife and I are shoving off for NY in August (medical school). That's pending decisions from Oregon and KY. But right now, It's looking like the Gunks for me!
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wings
May 3, 2007, 4:00 PM
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This thread is degenerating into idiocy. If you don't have anything useful to say, please shut up.
- Seyil
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medicus
May 3, 2007, 4:02 PM
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wings wrote: This thread is degenerating into idiocy. If you don't have anything useful to say, please shut up. - Seyil
And this helps?
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svilnit
May 3, 2007, 4:03 PM
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bobruef wrote: j_ung wrote: Nice, Bob! Thanks! I hope is well in Maryland-land. Thanks, no problem. I just got to thinking that the casual RC.com lurker might not be getting the whole picture here. I was suprised when I did a search, and remembered all of these threads. I think people need to keep all of this in perspective (i.e.- we're not just talking about 1 or 2 cams here). Another thing to consider is that the amount of failures that have been reported here and at Supertopo likely represent just a sampling of the total population of Aliens. As for Maryland-land, things are good. The wife and I are shoving off for NY in August (medical school). That's pending decisions from Oregon and KY. But right now, It's looking like the Gunks for me!
We'd better get together at least once at the 'loaf or Seneca before you roll out.
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roy_hinkley_jr
May 3, 2007, 4:21 PM
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bobruef wrote: At this point, though, In the absence of said evidence, I'm tending to give CCH a little less of the benefit of the doubt. Another possiblity is somebody interested in buying CCH is trying to drive the price down by spreading false rumors. But photos of the alleged failures could easily dispel that.
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madflash
May 3, 2007, 4:52 PM
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Bottom line is that aliens are unique and highly effective pieces when used properly, hell, even improperly. I have toke a 25 foot fall on my blue alien the other day where only 2 lobes had contact with the crack. I yarded back up to the piece and was shocked. I thought for sure it would have popped.
The point is...aliens are wicked. They also seem to have questionable quality control in production. This seems apparent when viewing the small differences in appearance and components between the same unit from different batches.
My advice to anyone is to have them tested by CCH. It might take a few weeks to get them back, but is worth it. After they come back, immediately go to the crack and test them yourself. I take large falls, 20+ feet, on all of my pieces the first time I ever use them. Call it piece of mind. Just back them up for safety.
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tomcat
May 3, 2007, 5:03 PM
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Dunno,seems like there are really a lot of Aliens in use,and for a long time.Most people I know carry some.The more in use,the more chance a few will fail.Most people I know carry the small ones,I carry black,blue,green and yellow.They are small cams and look to me like they would have some limitations just based on the size of the working parts.I'd guess there are ten times as many Aliens in play as C3's,since C3's are new and expensive.I would not be surprised to learn that Aliens have been placed 500 times more than C3's.Ditto whippers caught.A small cam that actually stays in the rock when you whip on it might well have a higher failure rate than ones that don't stay in the rock.
The Mountaingear catalog used to say something like"once popular with aid climbing afficionados,these cams have found their way onto many trad racks". The smaller ones have definate limitations.
Coming from a background precambrian,they seem pretty great to me.C3's might be better,but I still like the four cams on the Alien,if anything is bunky on the single side of a three cam unit it can pull out.Then it's pilot error,but the result is just as bad.
I'd like to see CCH tighten up their quality control and they don't sound awesome in the public relations department,but Aliens still have a lot of merit in my opinion.I'd like to see the pictures too,and hear more about the cams,their condition and was this the first time they got loaded or had they been working and developed an issue vs.off the shelf kin of failure.
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scuclimber
May 4, 2007, 12:51 AM
Post #38 of 112
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I love how people continue to defend a company with consistently inconsistent quality control in the manufacturing of devices into whose figurative hands, lobes, swages, whatever, they may end up placing their lives.[/soapbox]
I'd like to see some photos too. 
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jt512
May 4, 2007, 5:17 AM
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j_ung wrote: saxfiend wrote: m2j1s wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: Lotsa talk, no photos. Still nothing but rumors an innuendo until some folks post jpgs...it ain't that hard. i second that... talk is cheap unless it's backed by photos. Brilliant! By that logic, AIDS is just a rumor since we've never seen a picture of it. What a relief! JL Well, there are some subtle differences between the two. I may be one of CCH's biggest detractors online right now, and I too am at least a little curious to see the pics -- and curious to know why they haven't been posted yet. It seems we're getting little but silence from pretty much everybody who's involved directly.
These people owe no duty to post pictures of their failed Aliens. They've already done a public service by reporting the failures. I see no reason to assume that they are perpetuating a hoax.
Jay
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 1:54 PM
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Oh, I almost forgot!
booyah!
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skinnyclimber
May 4, 2007, 1:59 PM
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so are those viral particles or infected cells?
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:11 PM
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at the risk of further contributing to the derailment of this thread:
budding virions from an infected cell.
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m2j1s
May 4, 2007, 2:14 PM
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I sent my aliens in the other day to get tested, and the day CCH recieved them they contacted me and tested them. The next day, they were in the mail. Doesn't sound like such bad service to me. And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous. This is an online forum, one that any random person can read and post on, therefore any one of us could start a thread saying "my tech friend broke in half!... i took some pictures...ill post them soon, but now i'm just gonna hide and not post anything for a few weeks .. Laterrrrr''
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112
May 4, 2007, 2:18 PM
Post #45 of 112
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m2j1s wrote: And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous.
I agree. I have even tried to communicate with pinsandbones via PM. He hasn't reponded and he has been logging in. Not that I am saying he is lying, but it is irresponsible IMO.
I would think Micah is telling the truth, but who knows. Post them dam pictures please (if they exsist).
-Ken
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musicman1586
May 4, 2007, 2:29 PM
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tomcat wrote: A small cam that actually stays in the rock when you whip on it might well have a higher failure rate than ones that don't stay in the rock. The smaller ones have definate limitations.
I think you fail to understand what is going on here. A cam should not pull apart at forces well below the manufacturer specs. If manufactured properly, which there are aliens out there that have been, they bottom line should not fail when used in the proper way. What has happened here is that cams have failed in situations that they should not have failed in, period, if they were built to the manufacturer specs, and so the problem is not that aliens are not fantastic units, all too many people believe they are the best, the problem lies in that these fantastic units are not being built as they should be. Yes a small cam I would agree has a greater chance of failing, and any piece placed in an improper way can fail (forged friend in a horizontal with no tie off for example) but these reported failures have been under good conditions of which, had they been built correctly, they should have held.
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:31 PM
Post #47 of 112
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m2j1s wrote: ... And to say that the people posting reports of failures but not posting pictures are doing a service is pretty rediculous. This is an online forum
This may be a stretch... but maybe, just maybe... not everyone who uses Aliens, or has had one fail is a regular user of internet climbing forums. Maybe, just maybe, the guy who was involved in the accident at the Red has bigger fish to fry at the moment. I'm glad these failure were reported at all. And while I too would like to see photos, I'll echo Jt512 in saying, it's hardly their responsibility to post said photos.
I'm having a hard time calling hoax on people who are reporting Alien failures these days. I'm a little more apt to believe CCH's at fault here, based on previous incidents and their management of them. At this point, doesn't it sound a little silly to point towards conspiracy theories and the like?
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skinnyclimber
May 4, 2007, 2:36 PM
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But it is a conspiracy. the people who have broken or heard of broken Aliens are conspiring to inform the internet using climber population of a potential life threatening situation. I'm cool with that.
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bobruef
May 4, 2007, 2:47 PM
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[RANT]Also, would people PLEASE stop posting stuff like "I fell on an Alien and it held me." or "They sent my cams back promptly".
A few good experiences w/ CCH mean nothing. Hell, a few thousand good experiences mean very little when you consider the overwhelming amount of negative feedback on the company.
Hell, I'm glad my last United flight didn't crash this winter, but we're not aiming for over 50% success rates here. And I would think it absurd to respond to reports of multiple similar catastrophic failures on their jets with something like "oh, well I flew United the other day, and it was the best flight I've ever had" If United planes had fuel tank explosions on say 6 or 7 flights a year, there would be an alarming public outcry. Likewise, if 95% of Aliens don't fail at the braze (or the swage, or in the range, or at the cable...), it is simply unacceptable. [/RANT]
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