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daithi
Jan 16, 2006, 2:08 PM
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In reply to: The left side of the weld is were the gap is . it's not huge. I think the overall look of the weld just looks way sloppy compaired to the others i own ( smooth and continuous). I'll also add that i don't even think that iv'e placed this one yet ( just purchased as a suppliment to the aid rack) Maybe i'm just paranoid, but i think i have the right to be a little worried.
I can't see your picture but any voids in the exposed filler material at the top of the brazed joint is bad news. Of course you couldn't really tell if the integrity of the joint was compromised without an ultrasound or similar NDT test.
From my own perspective if I had any doubt about the integrity of my gear I would return it in a heartbeat. In the current climate I'd imagine REI et al. would replace any alien you sent back to them regardless of whether it had a dimple or not.
erockrings, can you upload the picture to rc.com so I can have a look please.
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clayman
Jan 16, 2006, 2:45 PM
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I know it's been only 4 or so days since CCH posted their recall notice here on rc.com. So I DON'T expect these questions to have answers yet, but they are on my mind so I thought get them out there.
-Is the faulty braze due to utter incompetence (ie was somebody stoned) or was it something more "understandable" like a faulty temp gauge on a welder or mislabeled brazing material?
-Is there any other way, other than the dimple, to trace the suspect cams back to the outside agent who assembled them?
-Will this same contractor still be used by CCH? Also, how long has CCH been employing this particular contractor.
-Why weren't (or was there) at least a sampling of the cams that were assembled by this outside agent tested to failure?
-Has CCH always outsourced their cams?
cl
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mistertyler
Jan 16, 2006, 2:58 PM
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Thanks to Mr. Healy (and some others) for 'taking the bull by the horns' and working in a professional manner with CCH to get the answers to the questions so many of us have had about this issue and keep the ball rolling to resolve it quickly. (Instead of just complaining but doing nothing.)
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bkboyd
Jan 16, 2006, 3:02 PM
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I just returned two non-dimpled aliens to REI on Friday. They told me that mine were not in the recall list, but were happy to refund my money regardless. For now, at least, I'm not comfortable leading on any of the recently made aliens. Mine were bought in November and December, and they gave me a full refund.
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sandstonejunkie
Jan 16, 2006, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: I just returned two non-dimpled aliens to REI on Friday. They told me that mine were not in the recall list, but were happy to refund my money regardless. For now, at least, I'm not comfortable leading on any of the recently made aliens. Mine were bought in November and December, and they gave me a full refund.
I felt the same way, just too many questions to trust leading on them.
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skinner
Jan 16, 2006, 4:07 PM
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There is enough people that are calling CCH and posting the results of their conversations that I really believe if we all "grabbed the bull by the horns" it would only be detrimental to the process at hand.
Without a doubt some of this has been unnecessary and unproductive b*tching, but much of it has been discussion.
The reality of the situation is that rc.com has been the driving force behind this issue which message boards all over the world have referred to when attempting to inform others. Through all the negative comments and spew these threads could very possibly be responsible for sparing someone from serious injury or death.
Hopefully someone at CCH will take the time to read though them eventually and get an idea of how their customers and the climbing community in general feel about how such things were and should be handled. If approached with the proper attitude many positive changes within CCH could take place (and I could finally get my hands on a full set of hybrids) which we could all benefit from.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a climber that wants to see CCH out of business.
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billcoe_
Jan 16, 2006, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: I got a quick response from Dave/CCH regarding the questions I emailed him. No doubt we will get a more comprehensive information once he has a chance to do a real post mortem but for now here are now the answers he sent: ------------------------------------------ Remaining Questions Stem Braze Failure 1) Why were cams marked with a "center punch dimple"? What purpose did this mark serve? CCH: "The centerpunch identified the company that made the braze." 2) An orange cam failure reported on RockClimbing.com sparked the investigation leading to this recall - was that cam marked with a "center punch dimple"? CCH: "Yes." 3) MGear tested nine cams resulting in 3 stem brazing failures - were those 3 cams marked with the "center punch dimple"? CCH: "Yes." 4) Has there been any reported or tested stem brazing failures of cams without the "center punch dimple"? CCH: "No." Mis-drilled Axle Holes 5) Do you know what product (dates, sizes, and type) were affected by this defect? CCH: "0305 is the date associated with the axle hole issue. All the cams I have seen with the axle hole off are 0305. Perhaps it extends to 0405. It is not a safety concern according to tests I have made. They hold well in excess of 3000. 6) Is this erronous displacement of the axle hole from its designed location the same on all defective cams or does it vary from cam to cam? HEALYJE: See #5. 7) Will you issue a seperate recall for this defect? HEALYJE: See #5. ------------------------------------------ Dave followed up these answers with: CCH: "I will keep you informed on this matter. I will be talking to more experts on brazing in the next few days - Dave" I let Dave know I very much appreciated his quick response and again, I have no doubt we will hear more on the matter as information is available to CCH... Joseph Healy Portland, Oregon
I've been refraining from posting so as not to fill up this thread with more dead space.
I have to now to post to say:
A) Thank Joseph for getting the facts. THANKS FROM ALL OF US.
B) Suggest that Dave show up, leave the pride and hubris at home and lay down an authentic, heartfelt apology. I can understand how he may have thought it was a hoax originally, but when it was found not to be, he should have apologized. You handled yourself poorly Dave.
C) Mgear rules ! It is unclear how much this will cost them financially because they went so far beyond what was needed or required of THEM by testing some of their CCH stock on hand to discover/confirm the problem: but if they even saved 1 life with their quick actions......well, not much you can say except step back in some kind of awe and wonder.
I'm done posting on this and suggest that others do as well unless they have facts or something significant to add.
regards:
Bill
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epic_ed
Jan 16, 2006, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: I think you would be hard pressed to find a climber that wants to see CCH out of business.
Very true.
Dave, thanks for taking a big step in the right direction with this recall.
Joe, thanks for doing some of the leg work to get some additional answers.
Ed
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 4:28 PM
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The recall covers "center punch dimpled" cams as described in the CCH Brazing Recall Notice. Return those cams as soon as possible. No doubt REI will accept other recently purchased non-dimpled cams. But be aware that at this point no cams without a "center punch dimple" have been identified as having this brazing defect.
I do not know what the long term result of returning "non-dimpled" cams will be. REI can probably absorb a number of them, but if too many get returned then I suspect it will create yet another problem for CCH. It is certainly a personal decision, but we don't want to loose CCH and Aliens. So at this point unless you have one that is "center punch dimpled" or has an obviously mis-drilled axle hole (in an orange) then I would say think twice about the affect of returning "non-dimpled" cams on this small company. Dave and CCH are attempting to address the defectively brazed cams in good faith at this point. I personally would counsel a bit of restraint, let them deal with these specific problem cams, and then let this play out a bit more before creating a secondary problem that at the moment is unwarranted by the facts at hand. Again, you'll all have to make that call for yourselves...
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sandstonejunkie
Jan 16, 2006, 5:00 PM
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In reply to: The recall covers "center punch dimpled" cams as described in the CCH Brazing Recall Notice.
In reply to: I do not know what the long term result of returning "non-dimpled" cams will be. REI can probably absorb a number of them, but if too many get returned then I suspect it will create yet another problem for CCH. It is certainly a personal decision, but we don't want to loose CCH and Aliens. So at this point unless you have one that is "center punch dimpled" or has an obviously mis-drilled axle hole ( in an orange) then I would say think twice about the affect of returning "non-dimpled" cams on this small company. Dave and CCH are now attempting to address the defectively brazed cams in good faith at this point. I personally would counsel a bit of restraint, let them deal with these specific problem cams, and then let this play out a bit more before creating a secondary problem that at the moment is unwarranted by the facts at hand. Again, you'll all have to make that call for yourselves...
Now, I'm going to follow billcoe_'s lead and stop posting in this thread, I doubt that I have anything more to add to the discusssion.
Thanks again to Joe for his efforts and best of luck to CCH, I look forward to my next Alien purchase when all of this is resolved.
James
edited for spelling
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: Joe, I thank you for all of your efforts in communicating with CCH for all our benefit, but I question your ecouragement of others to think of CCH and the climbing community as a whole above their own personal responsibility (to their safety) if they have questions about the reliability of their Aliens. I would remind everyone that you alone are responsible for you own safety. Do what you think is right for yourself.
James,
If you re-read my last post I very much urge people to follow their own thoughts in the matter. But I also ask that they first think twice before rushing to return non-recalled Aliens. Again, I for one don't want to lose CCH and Aliens and feel that there are currenly no facts whatsoever to sustain a recall of "non-dimpled" cams. Decide for yourself, but I believe if any evidence were to emerge of problems with "non-dimpled" cams from this point forward the scope of the Brazing Recall Notice will be formally changed and you will still have ample opportunity to return those as well if need be. But again as we've both now said, everyone will have to decide for themselves...
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: 1. The subcontractor quenched the braze joints after braze heating. What quenching does is to harden materilas by sticking the red hot part in a water or oil solution to rapidly cool the part. This is usually used for forging car parts. You never want to quench brazed joints because it causes the materials to cool at different times and temperatures and the braze will not adhere to the parts being brazed. I guess he took it upon himself to do the quenching, instead of allowing the braze joint to air cool.
Piton - Do you know this to be a fact? Or are you speculating that this what occured? At this point I have no knowledge of the details of the defect, but I am certainly far from the only conduit of information in this whole affair...
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skinner
Jan 16, 2006, 6:31 PM
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Between Paul, healyje and piton, which I have no idea how he obtained this information, but trusting it is accurate, all my questions have been answered. I hope that as this recall progresses CCH will include a list of lot# on their website as well.
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Piton's information is from a source I consider reliable.
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elvislegs
Jan 16, 2006, 6:50 PM
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does anyone know if it is common for gear makers to outsource parts of the manufacturing process like this?
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healyje
Jan 16, 2006, 7:05 PM
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Suffice it to say climbing-related gear is manufactured all around the world and it is quite difficult to make sweeping generalizations about such practices across the industry. I suspect, however, that it is more common to outsource the manufacture of entire products rather than to outsource a specific manufacturing step.
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fjclimbsrocks
Jan 16, 2006, 7:40 PM
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For what it's worth, I've got 5 aliens, Blue, Green, Yellow, Red, Grey, all of which have the 0305 batch code. Only the green has a dimple.
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waltereo
Jan 16, 2006, 10:03 PM
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Hi,
I also have a blue with that dimple.
My question is, who pay the shipping ? CCH ? I didn't see anywhere
regarding who pay shipping ?
Thanks
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wings
Jan 16, 2006, 10:30 PM
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In reply to: I also have a blue with that dimple. My question is, who pay the shipping ? CCH ? I didn't see anywhere regarding who pay shipping ?
You are.
- Seyil
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waltereo
Jan 16, 2006, 10:44 PM
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[quote="wings"][quote="waltereo"]I also have a blue with that dimple.
My question is, who pay the shipping ? CCH ? I didn't see anywhere
regarding who pay shipping ?
You are.
- Seyil
Not suppose to be me , IMO.
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jt512
Jan 17, 2006, 4:59 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I also have a blue with that dimple. My question is, who pay the shipping ? CCH ? I didn't see anywhere regarding who pay shipping ? You are. - Seyil Not suppose to be me , IMO.
We're talking about a dollar here, right?
Jay
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jimdavis
Jan 17, 2006, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: CCH: "The centerpunch identified the company that made the braze."We still don't know is whether the punch is immanent to their production process (= guaranteed) or if it was made manually ( = can't be sure).
Dude, the brazes are done by hand too...on ALL the Aliens it seems like. If you can't be sure of someone doing a centerpunch...what can you trust?
The fact that these things were hand brazed, and that this outsourcer's work was never tested is most concerning. I don't see how we're using a product that is completly dependant on one workers small braze. (and for the record, I know a thing or two about brazing...I actually have some rods in my room right now {custom crampon work done recently} )
Call me paranoid....but I don't like that. I'd feel better if it was a machine brazing these things that doesn't have "monday and friday" work.
Assuming CCH has the money to pull off this recall...I won't be buying from them till their manufacturing process changes.
Jim
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wings
Jan 17, 2006, 3:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I also have a blue with that dimple. My question is, who pay the shipping ? CCH ? I didn't see anywhere regarding who pay shipping ? You are. - Seyil Not suppose to be me , IMO. We're talking about a dollar here, right? Jay
Well ...
Given CCH's reputation (earned or not) about their supposed deficiencies when returning cams, I sent mine registered. $12 for peace of mind that I'll have proof they received my cam. Not thrilled about it, but as someone pointed out earlier, we have a choice - milk them for all they're worth, or help them struggle past this episode. I've chosen the latter, but it's not without doubts.
- Seyil
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healyje
Jan 17, 2006, 3:45 PM
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In reply to: Given CCH's reputation (earned or not) about their supposed deficiencies when returning cams, I sent mine registered. $12 for peace of mind that I'll have proof they received my cam. Not thrilled about it, but as someone pointed out earlier, we have a choice - milk them for all they're worth, or help them struggle past this episode. I've chosen the latter, but it's not without doubts. - Seyil
Good choice from my perspective as I think getting through this together, intact and alive, as a community of manufacturers, retailers, and climbers is the best possible outcome. That is also an outcome that happens to show this on-line world can rise above - well, to be perfectly blunt - itself once in awhile, and accomplish something positive in the real world...
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billl7
Jan 17, 2006, 4:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Technical Documentation CCH is committed to answering all of your questions concerning this recall, regardless of how technical or specific. We are currently working to provide documentation explaining the reasons behind the recall and what steps we have taken to improve our already stringent quality control measures. Please check back regularly for updates.
Here's to hoping for transparency!
Bill
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