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dudemanbu
Feb 17, 2006, 5:10 PM
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I don't understand why the OP has a problem with toproping on the anchors, but advocates lowering, when the part of toproping that damages the anchor most is the part where you're lowered after you climb...
It's downright hypocritcal.
lrn2rap.
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weschrist
Feb 17, 2006, 5:28 PM
Post #103 of 161
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It isn't hypocritical. One lower through the anchors per party is 10 times easier on the anchors than 10 TR burns on the anchors.
Seriously, lets go climbing on some steep rock so I can watch you clean your draws while rapping... you will learn very quickly what we are talking about.
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dingus
Feb 17, 2006, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: I don't go ski touring without a transceiver, shovel, probe and training to use this gear (and make sure I know my partners have the gear and know what to do too), and the same vein, I don't climb without covering all the bases THAT I CAN.
kel-e - not trying to change your mind here, as its irrelevant if I succeed or not.
A point about ski touring... the equipment and skills you list above are to deal with the skiing equivalent of a failed anchor. In other words, if you have to use that gear, you done fucked up. I think a lot of skiers totally kid ourselves about this shit... I think many of us ACT safer when we leave that gear in the car.
I know, I know, that's blasphemy to some, but avalanche deaths have sky rockted in recent years, and it isn't just noobs who die. Here in Cali some very experienced skiers have gotten the chop in the last two years taking the Big Chance.
I've listened to Kalcario's sport climbing advice for years now. I whole heartedly agree, not because he's my pal (we've never met) but because of two things:
1. I've tried it both ways extensively. The notion that a rappeller is more in control of the descent than a lower-off is only true absent objective hazard; rock fall, etc. Sport climbing in these parts goes down mostly on choss cliffs. You are rappelling past and below potentially loose blocks. The transition to rap is more prone to pilot error. And in sport climbing the belay is an active part of the climbing system, not a backup. That is the most important distinction from trad imo. I often see trad rationale applied to this subject and I don't think it translates all that well.
2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does. We all deal with fear in our own ways, but my preferred method for dealing with rappelling fear is to not do it. Walk off when I can, lower off when sport climbing, etc. I've done the multirap gig more times than I can count and Sheba willing, I will continue to do so for a couple more decades at least. But my bedrock position is that rappelling is inherently more dangerous than walking off or lowering off (good anchors and lower off equipped station of course).
Lastly, I do see sport climbing parties where the last good climber lowers off the anchors and then an old phat man (such as myself) gives the route a hopeless go, knowing he won't get very far. He doesn't see saw the anchor, but I forgive TR's in that situation. (we have gotten the look a time or two)
DMT
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caughtinside
Feb 17, 2006, 5:31 PM
Post #105 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: What? You have to position the shuts at 45 degrees towards each other. If you hang them straight down, they'll get pulled inwards naturally when people lower off them. And when you hang them at 45 degrees, they get pulled outward natually when people hang draws on them. Draw a diagram and take a moment to ponder the forces before you reply.
If you hang them straight up and down, they'll get pulled 'in' when people lower. Damned if you do, damned if you don't?
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alpinerock
Feb 17, 2006, 5:45 PM
Post #106 of 161
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In reply to: If you have ever cleaned a sport route that is steeper than hell and still think it should be done on rappel then you are an idiot. However you have probably never climbed anything steeper than the upper half of my bare ass and so you don't know what you are talking about. That makes you a double idiot and retard to boot.
haha, i've literally cleaned a route in hell, sorry that just sort of stuck out to me :)
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jt512
Feb 17, 2006, 5:48 PM
Post #107 of 161
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In reply to: 2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does.
Me too, and I detest having to let go of the rope with one hand to fiddle with anything, like cleaning draws -- even if the terrain is vertical and the route goes straight up and down. If the route traverses or overhangs, it just makes it all the worse.
Jay
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crimpandgo
Feb 17, 2006, 5:55 PM
Post #108 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: What? You have to position the shuts at 45 degrees towards each other. If you hang them straight down, they'll get pulled inwards naturally when people lower off them. And when you hang them at 45 degrees, they get pulled outward natually when people hang draws on them. Draw a diagram and take a moment to ponder the forces before you reply.
Unless the anchors are right next to each other (and they won't be because the is dangerous), you will still get an inward pull when using draws.
You are more likely to get a downward pull when you rap because as you get further away from the anchors, the "triangle" formed gets longer thus the angle of inward pull gets smaller. Basic Trig. You should consider doing the math. actually.
matter of fact.YOu should calculate the length draws needed to utilize the 45 degree hangers.
You also, have to calculate the forces on the anchors which is dependant on the quickdraw/webbing lengths chosen. This is argurably more important than the twisting potential of the hanger.
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dingus
Feb 17, 2006, 5:57 PM
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Two additional observations and a point (scare ME!)
1. There isn't much flaming in this thread. Some bickering after page 4,w aht do you expect. But this is a great discussion on the appropriate forum... beginners will do well to understand both sides of this discussion and learn to think for themselves!
2. Caughtinside's 'when in Rome' philosophy, I think is perhaps the BEST advice of all. While I know them only by reputation, what they say here and bits and pieces of their climbing resumes, guys like Kalcario and Jaybro have and can climb routes that will freeze your hearts; hard, scary, physical, cutting edge. They have been operating in that sphere for longer than the average climbing tenure represented on this board, by a couple of decades or more. They can pretty much climb anywhere in the world, and have. I find their respective positions fascinating, truly valuable to understand as well.
My point? Healyje chimed in to say that the SoIll guidebook expressly suggests rapping in lieu of lowering off. I would assume (having not climbed there) that the anchor stations are rigged with that in mind and that most of the locals practice this method. It would be totally bad form to go there, imo, and insist on lowering off in the face of local opposition. But I assure you, here in NorCal at the sport areas I've frequented, the move to replacable 'lower off' anchors as oppposed to rap anchors has been steady and widespread for more than 10 years now. The few sport climbs I've established are rigged this way. The ones my mates have opened are the same. All the ones I frequent on a training basis except a few manky ones at the Grotto are this way. The manky ones are more than a decade old in most cases.
I suggest the 'when in Rome' philosophy is the best rule of thumb. I also counsel keeping an open mind. I promise you, Kalcario would rap if the situation dictated and JayBro would lower off some stupid steep thing that meant a grounder on a clean. We can all argue our positions but the best climbers are flexible not only in body, but in mind and philosophy.
And really, not much flaming at all in this thread. Well done.
DMT
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bill413
Feb 17, 2006, 6:07 PM
Post #110 of 161
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Dingus - a beutiful post.
the best climbers are flexible not only in body, but in mind and philosophy
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weschrist
Feb 17, 2006, 6:20 PM
Post #111 of 161
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In reply to: haha, i've literally cleaned a route in hell,
which climb? were you rapping? would you do it again?
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kalcario
Feb 17, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: (Thank you for searching after the incidents - please forgive the unkind use of your research.) I noticed this entry on the page referenced above - can't help contributing it - at least one person replacing anchors requests minimal wear on them
Lowering IS minimal wear when objective danger is factored; if something happens to you when you're descending a cliff, would you rather be rappeling or be lowered? Which is higher priority, gear preservation or safety?
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sevrdhed
Feb 17, 2006, 6:53 PM
Post #113 of 161
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Looks like my last post didn't get posted, so I'll reiterate here.
It's obvious that both lowering and rappelling have their advantages and disadvantages. I've got the perfect solution, something I think we can all agree on.
Downclimb, bitches.
Either that or go bouldering :D
Steve
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cracklover
Feb 17, 2006, 7:11 PM
Post #114 of 161
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In reply to: "I'm sure you kids diligently replace the links you destroy with the replacements you carry with you on EVERY sport pitch, though I've never seen it." Guess you've never climbed at the Pier or Tsunami wall in Red Rocks. We do put a great many number of leaver biners and replacable hardware at the top of sport routes. Maybe cause we're not "kids". Unfortunately, many of them are not there when we come back. Someone sees biners at the top of a climb and thinks they're bootie. So, now we've moved to leaving hardware store style links at the top, and even still, this group of Canadian kids was about to take them. Thank god we were still at the cliff and could educate them about leaver gear.
Yeah, thank god you're around to "educate" everyone. Tell me, aimeerose, if these leaver biners are so important to get off the climb, how come they keep disappearing? Is it the folks rappelling down out of black helicopters to pick them off? Or maybe you haven't heard about teleporting down from the top. You really should try that sometime, it's so much easier than lowering.
GO
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dudemanbu
Feb 17, 2006, 7:57 PM
Post #116 of 161
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Okay, that's bad logic. So what if i want to TR it once, and you want to lower off it ten times? 1 /= 10 wes. You and everyone else should know that. 1 top rope lower = 1 sport lead lower.
One lower per party? So only one of you climbs it? And the same party would do 10 laps on toperope? Come on. don't bullshit.
That's the basic point of this argment, and it is infalliable. A lower is a lower is a lower. Period.
If you're against toproping on the anchors, then you're against lowering too, whether you think you are or not.
edited for typos.
In reply to: It isn't hypocritical. One lower through the anchors per party is 10 times easier on the anchors than 10 TR burns on the anchors. Seriously, lets go climbing on some steep rock so I can watch you clean your draws while rapping... you will learn very quickly what we are talking about. |
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cracklover
Feb 17, 2006, 8:14 PM
Post #118 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: 2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does. Me too, and I detest having to let go of the rope with one hand to fiddle with anything, like cleaning draws -- even if the terrain is vertical and the route goes straight up and down. If the route traverses or overhangs, it just makes it all the worse. Jay
Well if you were really concerned, you could go with a device like the TRE Sirius. Not that you should (after all, you are in Rome), but it's a perfectly valid option.
GO
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jt512
Feb 17, 2006, 8:33 PM
Post #119 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does. Me too, and I detest having to let go of the rope with one hand to fiddle with anything, like cleaning draws -- even if the terrain is vertical and the route goes straight up and down. If the route traverses or overhangs, it just makes it all the worse. Jay Well if you were really concerned, you could go with a device like the TRE Sirius. Not that you should (after all, you are in Rome), but it's a perfectly valid option. GO
You expect me to sport climb with a rap device the size and weight of a small frying pan attached to my harness? Not!
Jay
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csproul
Feb 17, 2006, 8:40 PM
Post #120 of 161
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In reply to: Okay, that's bad logic. So what if i want to TR it once, and you want to lower off it ten times? 1 /= 10 wes. You and everyone else should know that. 1 top rope lower = 1 sport lead lower. One lower per party? So only one of you climbs it? And the same party would do 10 laps on toperope? Come on. don't s---. That's the basic point of this argment, and it is infalliable. A lower is a lower is a lower. Period. If you're against toproping on the anchors, then you're against lowering too, whether you think you are or not. edited for typos.
OK rocket scientist...only one person per party needs to lower because you use draws on the anchor bolts for everyone except the last person to clean the route. Same with toproping; draws on the anchor bolts until the last person needs to lower off.
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caughtinside
Feb 17, 2006, 8:47 PM
Post #121 of 161
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In reply to: If you're against toproping on the anchors, then you're against lowering too, whether you think you are or not.
No.
But thanks for letting us know what we think!
The point is, is that some wear is acceptable. I.e, one person per party lowering is acceptable, for convenience/safety. Everyone lowering is unnecessary wear, since you can slap two draws on the anchor.
Yeah, folks could rap for even less wear on the anchor, but the majority of climbers think/act as if a small amount of wear is an acceptable trade off for the convenience/safety concerns.
But if you really want to rap off, be my guest.
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bhilden
Feb 17, 2006, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In mid-June Rob Copolillo, Dale Haas and I added 5/16" quick links and 3/8" chain links to the anchors on Old Deuteronomy, Mungajerry, Rumple Teaser, Mr. Mistoffeles, Jellicle Cats, Gumby Cat and MacCavity.The existing 3/8" cold shut anchors were showing signs of wear most likely due to the unfavorable practice of lowering and belaying directly through the anchors.
They are not influential bolters and their crag is not influential. I have never heard of them and probably haven't climbed at their crag.
Hey, don't diss my friends, they are good guys. I asked them to help me add quick links to the worn anchors on this heavily-used crag (Cats Slab, Clear Creek Canyon, Front Range, Colorado).
These routes were established by Richard Wright who is a very influential bolter in Colorado having established hundreds of sport routes.
Bruce
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caughtinside
Feb 17, 2006, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: aimee - great post. It should be heeded not by just beginners, however. I've climbed with several parties, experienced climbers, who should have known better but set up a TR right into the anchors. In each instance, I walked away and wouldn't climb the route.
Hahahaha!!!! Wrong!!!
When that happens, you PULL IT AND LEAD IT.
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daithi
Feb 17, 2006, 9:09 PM
Post #124 of 161
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In reply to: That's the basic point of this argment (sic), and it is infalliable. A lower is a lower is a lower. Period.
I wouldn't quite claim infallibility yet if I were you! Most people toprope off their own quickdraws and not the anchors. If you weren't aware of this, I doubt you should be engaging in a discussion on etiquette at sport crags!
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saxfiend
Feb 17, 2006, 9:31 PM
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People, don't you know that every time a climber raps off a sport route instead of being lowered, God kills a puppy!!!!
:cry:
JL
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