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shanz
Apr 22, 2006, 9:39 PM
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Long post sucks that ethics are thrown out the window for ((A)SPORT) and i hear climbers all the time say they do it for the freedom... well lets get to the reality of the situation..
ONE PERSON'S FREEDOM STOPS WHERE ANOTHER PERSONS STARTS!!!
Have a little respect guess this is why im not particularly in favor of the mass influx of climbers. Im not speaking of individuals but rather the big thing is "this sport called climbing" i hate that word sport... What is ethics in basball, or football, for example... Ethics are a must so that rules and laws arent insituted because of a few people screwing it up for the rest of us
Wow not sure where that came from :shock:
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yousuck
Apr 24, 2006, 12:39 AM
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Another thought would be to get the local ethic more out in the open. R&I isn't gonna do it for us. Someone close to the heart of this should put the "local eithic" spheal on this website and every other site out there.
A new guidebook to the well established areas that clearly communicates what is tolerated and what is not would help. AR has a similar amount of climbing as TN or NC, but those states have much better documentation to serve as guidance for would-be new route setters.
TN also has the coopereation of the NFS in some areas.
Signs or kiosks at trailheads may help too.
I think (and hope) this is a communication issue and the population that would do something to break the local ethic would be very small...
Good luck guys, let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
I HATE seeing bolts on a trad protectable line. There is no excuse for that.
Scott Shankle
www.memphismountaineers.com
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ozoneclimber
Apr 24, 2006, 2:39 AM
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I live about an hour from HCR and about two hours from Sam's, I own no trad gear and I have only trad climbed three times in the seven years that I have been climbing. THERE IS NO REASON TO BOLT A NATURALLY PROTECTED ROUTE!!!!!!! If you can place gear you don't need to bolt it, period.
I think the reason that Madflash posted this in the first place was to preserve the respect that these places deserve, so please don't flame him for what he says, he's just trying to help.
A coalition would do worlds of good, but there isn't much of a way to get the locals into it. I run into a lot of Arkies out at the crags but, there really isn't anyone on this site or any other. BTW an Arkie specitic site is out there, climbarkansas.com, they started it a while ago but they haven't been getting much cooperation, because of the solo-mentality. There is a distinct minority of in-state climbers in these parts.
There are some amazing lines on Prophecy (including a great 5.8) and Titanic and over on the other side of the canyon, but that gets pretty warm about this time of year.
As far as bolting new lines goes, I think that it would be good to do, but there should be none on a naturally protected or previously established line. Old bolts should be replaced and new anchors would be good too. It is always good to grow, and if that involves bolting I'm for it.
I can't offer much in the way of monetary help at the moment but I can offer man-power for any work that needs to be done at Sam's or any other crag that could use help. And what I mean by naturally protected, does not include three micro-stoppers spread out over 80 feet of rock. That's just asking to crater.
-Bobby
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yousuck
Apr 24, 2006, 12:45 PM
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In reply to: If you can place gear you don't need to bolt it, period.
Correction, IMO, "If anyone can place gear you don't need to bolt it, period." BTW, read my post again. I wasn't flaming anybody.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder about this communication thing. AR climbing has been, for the most part, without a guidebook for more than 6 years. Could it be that this has kept the area "top secret" and at the same time opend the door for folks to come in and do whatever they want because there is no guidance otherwise?
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 3:24 PM
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Climbing and ethics, this is going to get dirty!. There are standards that should be respected, period. Different climbing areas have different ethics, though similar in nature and origin.
HCR should be totally left out of this conversation. HCR is on Private Property, and in such a case, the land owner makes the rules, the "ethics" of that area (and that area only). This thread is about Sam's Throne and the surrounding areas, not HCR.
Before I go into the ethics issue, this weekend I was climbing at Sam's. What a great weekend!
A few things I noticed that disturbed me was the bolting of chicken head wall. This route has been climbed for decades without bolts. We usually solo out this route with packs, I mean, seriously. Someone is really stooping to new levels putting bolts in on this classic wall!
Second, there are these glow-in-the-dark shiny new bolted routes on the beautiful face right of Coup D'etat. Not to mention that one of them has a obnoxious double chain anchor w/biners, located 2 feet below the existing anchors on Coup D'etat! What the F%$K is that about? Then to the right, someone has bolted Coup DE Grace, which was climbed by Jim Karpowitz in the '80's. None of these new bolts are painted to match the rock! I'd bet a million dollars that some chump put the bolts in on Rappel, with total disrespect to the history and ethics of the area. This blatant exhibition of disregard cannot go unchallenged, as it never has at Sam's Throne!
The tradition at Sam's Throne, West Man Bluff, East Main Bluff and Hero Maker walls, at least for the past 17 years that I have been climbing there, has been a strong traditional ethic. The same ethic that is in place all across the nation at areas such as Yosemite and Joshua Tree. Bolts are to be placed on lead. Bolts should not be placed were natural protection is available. Bolts are never to be placed on an existing route, except in the case of replacement. Existing top-rope routes are considered established routes until proven otherwise (with a ground up lead). The reason 'top rope' routes exist at Sam's, is because no one has been able to sack-up and lead the route 'ground up'. If bolts go in on lead when needed, then so be it. Rappel bolting these routes is disrespectful and cowardess. Bolting on Rappel at Sam's is by no means the ethical standard, has never been and will never be. Grid bolting, read: bolting multiple routes within close proximity) is poor taste at such a pristine and beautiful area. Many routes have been chopped due to this senseless pursuit.
I was a bit confused by Madflash's original post. Was he trying to stir the pot while hiding under the curtain of subtle and seemingly heart-feat questions? Or was he trying to take over the throne, steel the crown and run...
So my question to you Madflash, What do you think of these new sport climbs at Sam's, and what is your response to the posts from myself and others in this forum?
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zoratao
Apr 24, 2006, 4:04 PM
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Ummm, I hate (not rally ) to point out the obvious but why not contact:
Ozark-St. Francis National Forests
605 West Main
Russellville, AR 72801
479- 968-2354
Buffalo Ranger District
Jasper, AR
870-446-5122
Ozark - St. Francis National Forest
and voice your concerns, maybe ask for a sign. I have never climbed at Sam's though I wouldn't mind getting there this summer before it gets too hot. Actually compared to Oklahoma, it never gets too hot! So it looks like Sam's is part of the national forest and thus protected lands, so if you are the first one and make your case to the ranger you could probably quickly set up a bolting committee. No offense I dont know your personal history but I would try to find the most experienced climbers in the area to chair that. Anyway best of luck. Invites open, if you wanna hit the Wichita Mountain Wildilife Reserve, Baldy is out for the season. By the way your practically in Oklahoma, and practically in missouri too. Where else do you get your beer?
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 4:23 PM
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A coalition would do worlds of good, but there isn't much of a way to get the locals into it.
your right, 1/2 the climbers in arkansas honestly dont give a fukc if their is a coalition. maybe we should be considering a militia instead. bust the heads of the gridbolters, overchalkers, people who are more concerned with ethics than climbing. more arkies would be down for kicking somones ass than, putting up a sign.
IMHO
..i..
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 4:45 PM
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In reply to: A coalition would do worlds of good, but there isn't much of a way to get the locals into it.
There is a coalition. Its called 'the community', which has been falling apart because the guidelines set forth decades ago are now being ignored by a few misguided souls whom think that the word 'local' has to mean that you live down the street.
In reply to: your right, 1/2 the climbers in arkansas honestly dont give a fukc if their is a coalition. maybe we should be considering a militia instead. : bust the heads of the gridbolters, overchalkers, people who are more concerned with ethics than climbing. more arkies would be down for kicking somones ass than, putting up a sign.
YOU are an idiot. People like you are exactly why access issues become 'issues'. Without ethics climbing is lost and becomes a mere 'sport' for the masses. Your thoughts are a mindless contradiction.
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Without ethics climbing is lost and becomes a mere 'sport' for the masses
But brah, climbings already a sport! with masses! Isnt that what this thread is about anyway, the masses? People, climbers (especially in arkansas) are going to do what they want, with our without the coalition. yeah im a local, and yes i do live down the street.
..i..
p.s. stay out of my wal-mart too.
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 6:15 PM
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In reply to: But brah, climbings already a sport! and masses! Isnt that what this thread is about anyway, the masses?
Unfortunalty, to you, that seems to be all 'climbing' is, a sport. To some us us, who don't live with mommy anymore, we think of 'climbing' as a lifestlyle. I would not expect you to understand. It seems that you have already grown fond of the old phrase, "Ignorence is bliss".
Masses, that is partially what this thread is about. More so why they are there and what keeps them coming or at bay, and the furture of such impacts on Sams Throne.
In reply to: People, climbers (especially in arkansas) are going to do what they want, with our without the coalition. yeah im a local, and yes i do live down the street.
Bold statement from such a young lad, Yancey. What do you really know of the climbing world, other than what you read in the rags and climb on 'down the street'?
Ahh yes, exactly the mentality that explains your actions...
In reply to: p.s. stay out of my wal-mart too.
I certainly will. Too bad you don't stay away. You just overlook the big picture on every issue...
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madflash
Apr 24, 2006, 6:15 PM
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Well I come back from the weekend to see that the keyboard warriors have been hard at work. GOOD, I am glad my post has received so many hits and responses. It is comforting to know that there are climbers out there and that they know how to read.
I knew I was gonna cause a shit storm with that one. But it needed to be done. First off let me respond to the many questions, comments, and accusations. In my own defense I did not bolt the routes near Coup d Etat. I was there this weekend and climbed on both of them though. Here is my opinion. Yep they are sport routes. Bolts and anchors. The route to the right of Coup d Etat is piss hard and the one to the right of that which I guess is Coup de Grace is mid 5.10 ish. Both were probably bolted on rap, I would agree with that. It would take some grande cohones to bolt that stuff on the lead...which I guess is kinda the point. I don't have a problem with the piss hard route to the right of Coup d Etat. It was harder than I am pulling right now and I can't imagine ANYONE from these parts doing it on gear...maybe that is just a challenge to whoever thinks they are dumb enough to try. The "ugly" chain anchors there, well, next time you are up at the Coup d Etat anchors, give them a good thorough inspection and tell me what you think. I agree that those bolts should be painted to match the rock. That is a simple and easy method to lower the visual impact and keep the natural beauty of the wall. If I can make it out this coming weekend I will go and paint them to match.
As for the Coup de Grace route. I climbed it and it was a fun little line. I couldn't tell from the guide book if it was indeed Karpowitz's route, there was no topo for that wall, and the description is a little vague. However, if it is Karpowitz's route my hat goes off to him for a heck of a lead...balls baby. I am not particularly pissed about it being there. I had never done it before and probably never would because of poor protection... I for one don't have a death wish, except early in the morning. Whoever put it up should have asked for permission first, which I am guessing they didn't. However, in their defense, with the guide book out of print its a little hard to know. Still....
I had the same experience on Titanic as Ben was so kind to remind me. Titanic is an old Wilford route on the West main bluff. Like 5.11+ X spectacular looking arete thing. A buddy of mine kept talking about this killer line he wanted to bolt at Sam's, so I go with him and boulder around while he is bolting. After he is done, I am looking through the guide book and say, hey man is this an old Wilford route. Sure enough it was. So we pull the bolts and swear on blood never to speak of the incidence again. Well I saw Wilford about a year or two ago and asked him about it and told him my story. He laughed and said, "Oh man I remember there being good gear there". SSSSHHHHHHIIIIIITTTTT! Anyway he wasn't pissed, and I was glad we had taken the bolts out. I still don't think I will ever man up enough to try it on gear though. The point of the story is that we all make some stupid mistakes.
As far as sport routes go...I clip bolts when they are there. Sometimes I have been known to skip a bolt or two. Sometimes I forget my chalkbag. Sometimes I forget that I left my #2 camalot on the ground. Mostly that's because I'm an idiot. But sometimes its because that's just what I had planned. You see having bolts there doesn't mean that you have to clip them. There are bolts that I wouldn't waste a draw on...like the bolts on Radical Changes at Mt. Magazine....wow!. About a year ago i put up a hard (5.10+) trad line at Horseshoe canyon. It took me two days to free it of poison ivy vines (some 30+ feet tall) and then I top-ropped it first and finally balls up and led it on some pretty sketch gear. I told everyone about it and begged people to try it. I waited almost a full year and no one ever went to go try it. I thought it would for sure be one of Horseshoes best trad lines. Finally I got so pissed that I spent that much time making it climbable and no one had got on it that I went back and bolted the last 30 feet of the route to make it a mixed route. And you know what, within one week I think about a dozen different people had been on it. They were all amazed at how good a route it was and how they must have walked by it a hundred times before and never though much of it. Those two bolts I added changed that route that is true. They took it from 5.10+ R to 5.10+ safe. But with that came another fun route for anyone to stop and try without the fear of death. The point? I would rather have someone, anyone climb MY routes than have them sit there for years because they were dangerous. That is how I feel about MY routes, all 4 of them or something like that.
The reason I climb isn't to increase my ego. Its not to make other people stop and say hey that guy Stark is a REAL man cause he don't need no stinkin' bolts. I climb to get out of the house into the fresh air and have fun with my friends. Still I recognize the issues at hand and think that they deserve our attention and our consideration. I don't want a bunch of classic old lines to be litered with bolts. I would also like to climb some cool face routes without having to hike to the top set up 50 ft of webbing to toprope and then once I have the route dialed and the gear wired go back and "redpoint" it. I figure what's the point in that, it isn't really any different than clipping a bolt...in my opinion. There are several routes that I have gone back and done only on gear even when there is a bolt two feet away. There are even routes I have done on gear that later got bolted and I go back and you know what I even might have clipped some of those bolts. Sam's Throne is no exception. There are several obvious cracks there that I will get up to a roof or a lip and have a bomber piece ready to fire in and say, what the F*ck there is a bolt here. Sometimes I clip it sometimes I don't. What I don't do is think that the fate of the universe henges on the ass hole that placed that bolt there.
If at all possible I would like to see these issues resolved within the community as opposed to having Park Service regulations. I think that we are all mature enough to dictate our own rules, and no one wants a baby sitter...especially one with a badge, a gun, and something to prove. That is why I am advocating some kind of climbers coalition. I have already started the letter writting process to some climbing organizations that speciallize in this knid if stuff. Hopefully they will have good suggestions on ways to organize the community. One thing that I think would help and probably resolve some issues is to have a Climbers Rendevous at Sam's either this summer or over the Fall. Its been a while and I think Sam's is up for it. Anyone?
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 6:50 PM
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, god how could have ever competed with you, i mean seriously right? you worked in yosemite and everything, woah. meet me at sams sometime shaun, i'll show you bold.
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 6:51 PM
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, god how could have ever competed with you, i mean seriously right? you worked in yosemite and everything, woah. meet me at sams sometime shaun, i'll show you bold.
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 6:51 PM
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, god how could have ever competed with you, i mean seriously right? you worked in yosemite and everything, woah. meet me at sams sometime shaun, i'll show you bold.
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 7:24 PM
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In reply to: hey buddy! man i do apologize. I should have read your profile before i talked to you. You are to elite to even walk down the street. Have you learn to hover yet? dood im seriously impressed with the wilderness emt and all that stuff. sean you are my hero. hopfully oneday i could be like you? lil mommies boy signing out yg
and...
In reply to: god how could have ever competed with you, i mean seriously right? you worked in yosemite and everything, woah. meet me at sams sometime shaun, i'll show you bold.
Yancey,
There is a difference between bold and just plain stupid.
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ozoneclimber
Apr 24, 2006, 8:43 PM
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Sean, can't say that I've ever met you but it's people like you that make the community suck so hard... Yeah it's a lifestyle, for almost anyone that is into the sport[/i, and the masses are there. Who cares, it's called growth. I climb with Yancey, he's a damn good climber and a damn good friend. Ethics matter but it isn't the end of the world.
Man, grow up and quit being a dick.
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ozoneclimber
Apr 24, 2006, 8:45 PM
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BTW I'm an EMT as well who gives a shit.
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rockinitinark
Apr 24, 2006, 8:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: hey buddy! man i do apologize. I should have read your profile before i talked to you. You are to elite to even walk down the street. Have you learn to hover yet? dood im seriously impressed with the wilderness emt and all that stuff. sean you are my hero. hopfully oneday i could be like you? lil mommies boy signing out yg and... In reply to: god how could have ever competed with you, i mean seriously right? you worked in yosemite and everything, woah. meet me at sams sometime shaun, i'll show you bold. Yancey, There is a difference between bold and just plain stupid.
sell out
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: BTW I'm an EMT as well who gives a s---.
Obviously Yancy does, since this is what makes one a "Hero".
In reply to: Sean, can't say that I've ever met you but it's people like you that make the community suck so hard...
Beacause...I don't put colored tape on the holds for you?
In reply to: Who cares, it's called growth. I climb with Yancey, he's a damn good climber and a damn good friend. Ethics matter but it isn't the end of the world.
Fortunately, some people do care. It's the careless that give us intelligent gifts such as closed access, bolted cracks, general disrespect for the history of a climbing area and trash at the campsite. You may not have had any ethics while slugging around in caves before you started climbing a few years ago, but we do have ethics in the climbing world. Like it or not.
I'm a sellout? Because I contribute or because that's the best you could come up with?
In reply to: Man, grow up and quit being a dick.
Oh No! Now we have stooped to name calling. I have stated nothing but facts and given sound information on the question at hand, while you two "damn good friends" just keep poking the fire. Go ahead, keep poking. I can take it. I actually enjoy it, though it wastes other interested parties time, while they might actually want to contribute to the Sams Throne discussion...
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golsen
Apr 24, 2006, 9:59 PM
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In reply to: As just about everyone in the world knows now, Arkansas has some good climbing (Thanks a bunch Rock & Ice!). The cat is out of the bag. This isn't really new news though. The news of good stone has slowly been leaking over the past couple of years.
dude, I hate to tell ya, but thats what I thought in the early 90's. I think that was when the first mag article on climbing in Arkansas came out...and in about 10 years, climbers will be saying the same thing.
In reply to: It has good rock I mean...but there is this little pesky unwritten rule there concerning something about ethics. Yeah what's that you may wonder. Well at Sam's ...I'm not exactly sure. There was something written about not bolting, but wait there's lots of bolts all over Sam's. Okay something else written about the art of placing gear...blah, blah...but wait isn't that an obvious crack with a couple of bolts on it. Then of course there is a cool looking face or two which is...BOM, BOM, BOM!!!... a top rope only route. What the hell is top roping. Does anyone actually do that crap. I mean okay little kids and grandmas aside does anyone actually do that crap. Last time I checked, Rock and Ice and Climbing aren't accepting top rope ascents in the Hot Flashes section.
The great thing about top roping is that it does not leave all of those shiny things in the rock. It leaves it in a natural state (gee, aint that what Arkansas is?). I sort of think the land owners may like that gig too....And as far as being in hot flashes. Dont sweat it. When or if you do something that significant they will find you. But if that is how you try and determine the proper style of ascent, I feel sorry for you. That seems like a pitiful existance.
In reply to: Back to Sam's. So there is THE ETHIC at Sam's Throne...some weird conglomerate of different ways to F*ck up good climbing, basically. You all can see where I'm going with this one.
Sorry, where are you going? Sack up and spill your guts. You want to add bolts to existing routes? You want to bolt a bunch of stuff at Sam's? I thought you were saying that there was already a bunch of bolts there. Where are you headed with this one.
In reply to: Oh and those bomber, trust them with your life cause you know that they work, bolts out there....They are basically s---. That's right, you might as well clip into an old piece of chewing gum, cause that's just as likely to catch your fall. Most of the hardware at Sam's Throne is junky old 3/8'' X 2and3/4'' wedge bolt hardware store mank that has been out rusting for oh...10+ years now. Yeah these aren't the bomber 1/2'' X 3and3/4'' Rawl expansion bolts you have grown to love and trust at Horseshoe. Those wedges aren't even made for climbing. They aren't rated to hold falls or anything. NOw maybe in some bomber sierra granite they might hold up, but this is chossy Arkansas sandstone we are talking about here.
Dude, this is simple (well not for me as I live 2000 miles away now. Those old bolts may need some maintenance after all of those years...
Check out this thread here.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=99381&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=30
...Not always is it the hardware, its that great rock down there. Dont get me wrong, I love the rock, but the bolt was so good on this route that the rock broke out...LONGER and Beefier is the answer, not just 1/2". And for what it is worth, back then we thought that 3/8 by 3" were totally bomber. I still think they are good though, just not maybe for the long haul.
In reply to: I don't want to sound like a complete ass.
You dont sound like a complete ass, just one who needs to say what it is you want to say! :lol:
In reply to: I greatly appreciate the climbers that came before me. They did some balls-to-the-walls stuff back when I was itching my daddy's pants, I know you don't have to remind me. But what passed for acceptable back then is starting to make itself a problem nowadays in 2006. Climbing is a lot different now. It isn't a couple of good ole boys stomping through the woods climbing a rock or two anymore. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of weekend warriors in the community now. Its gotten big whether you want to admit it or not. So what does this have to do with anything you might ask. Well, not a lot really, except for this... As more and more climbers start climbing at these places, like Sam's, where there is some "ethic", or lack there of in my opinion, more problems will arise. Specifically someone, and it ain't gonna be me, is going to rip on one of those "bolts" and take the big one. That's right, complete taco. And then where does your access go when the forest service finds out that climbing isn't safe at Sam's and that the bolts are mank. The answer...It goes away. I know this is a little doomsday sounding but we will probably run into this scenario sooner or later. And of course this doesn't even address another issue. What about putting up new routes at Sam's. I was recently told that there is a bolting ban on at Sam's. Of course that came from someone from Oklahoma, which last time I checked ain't Arkansas. Sorry, I had to vent a little. So what are we going to do? Now that is the real question. What are we going to do. Anyone? Anyone at all with a plan? You say, well Madflash, what should we do since you are the all-knowing one. s---, I don't have those answers. The only thing I can think is that we need some kind of community based forum to discuss these issues. Most everyone else in the climbing community round these parts is used to this keep-to-yourself mentality. That's not going to cut it anymore. So this thread on some website out there is where I am going to start. I know its not exactly proactive but it needs to get down. Think about some of these issues that I have discussed above and think about them good. Then type back with your own two cents and let your voice be heard. What is to become of climbing in Arkansas? p.s. - sorry for the length and the spray. Cheers.
My plan is to not bolt at Sams. If you want to lead something just sack up and do it. Or TR it. That is one of the first and most underrated skills climbers learn, the safety of the rope above....
A little Background on me...
I haven’t been to Arkansas for at least a decade; however, I used to Live in Kansas and I climbed a fair amount at Sam’s back in the early 90’s. I have had the opportunity to climb in 17 states over the last 30 years, with about 100 new routes in about 5 states, so I kind of feel like I have been around the block so to speak.
Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon thing, retro bolting routes or bringing rappel and drill techniques to long time traditional areas. In the old days, the idea was to climb the rock with the minimum amount of impact. Back when that is how we climbed we thought we were doing the right thing. Scaring the crap out of ourselves risking life and limb but we also learned to climb within our abilities. Nowadays, climbers are all about numbers, so long as there is a TR or a bolt in front of their face.
I am not approaching this as a strict trad climber since I am responsible for my fair share of bolts in that area, just not at the throne. Sam's Throne, the Natural Area in the Natural State, kind of a nice ring dont ya think?
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therealbovine
Apr 24, 2006, 10:07 PM
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Registered: Jan 10, 2003
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golsen,
It's about time that someone who actually is traveled show a glimmering sign of hope to the 'NOW' climbers.
I like that term "Natural..." has a really nice ring to it!
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madflash
Apr 24, 2006, 10:17 PM
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
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Trying to get a community consensus is a good idea...Maybe posting it on RC.com wasn't. Unfortunately this thread has moved from a serious topic to childish name-calling and endless bickering over who said what and who has been climbing there longer. I'm starting to doubt that anyone is going to contribute anything even remotely helpful towards finding solutions to our problems. I think I will search elsewhere. Thanks :cry:
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madscientist
Apr 24, 2006, 10:24 PM
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Registered: Jan 21, 2002
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It would be nice to get back on topic, so here goes.
I climbed at Sam's Throne and surrounding areas extensively in the mid to late 90's. I always believed that Sam's was more of a traditional area and tried to respect that ethic. I view the ethical debate as being subtle. My view is that you should try to take as little away from the climbing community as a whole as possible. It must be appreciated that climbers climb for very different reasons. Every bolt takes something away from somebody, and banning bolts takes something away from others.
I know Jim Karpowitz well, and I am pretty sure that he would be disappointed that somebody bolted Coup de Grace. His line (which I am sure he enjoyed climbing in the style that he did) has now been permanently altered. Even if the bolts are removed, there will still be scars. However, adding the bolts does open up the line to others. The question is, should this be the way climbing progresses? In my opinion, a huge NO.
To satisfy the community as a whole, we need areas that are mainly sport climbing and areas in which bolts are restricted, if not banned. I would vote for banning any new bolts in the Sam's Throne area. There are some technical issue with "banning" bolts, but I will not discuss them here. There are several nearby areas which offers sport climbing, Cave Creek and Horseshoe Canyon Ranch. Thus keeping Sam's a bolt free place should not be much of a problem. I will be very disappointed if Windy Armbuster gets bolted. It would take something away from my climbing world.
Personally, I like many types of challenges. The addition of bolts to some routes would not make them nearly as enjoyable. However, I also enjoy a good day of sport climbing. Northern Arkansas is blessed because it has both. A climber of any ability looking for almost any type of challenge can go there and have fun.
Having said all this, it is going to be impossible to convince some people that bolts are bad, or others that bolts are good. What we have to convince everyone is to respect the established ethics of an area, and respect others.
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weightlesserik
Apr 24, 2006, 10:39 PM
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Registered: Apr 22, 2006
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Fortunately, some people do care. It's the careless that give us intelligent gifts such as closed access, bolted cracks, general disrespect for the history of a climbing area and trash at the campsite.
Right on, Sean. Anyone who climbs should care.your right, 1/2 the climbers in arkansas honestly dont give a fukc if their is a coalition. maybe we should be considering a militia instead. : bust the heads of the gridbolters, overchalkers, people who are more concerned with ethics than climbing. more arkies would be down for kicking somones ass than, putting up a sign
Ethics are what climbing is all about. Sport climbers even have ethics. They want to lead a route with no falls. Should we say that they are 'more concerned with ethics than climbing'? No. The simple fact is that, in predominately bolted areas, we are ok with bolting. In predominately trad areas, we are not ok with bolting. This is especially true for established lines, but just as important for other walls in the area.
The issue here shouldn't be about boldness as much as about the environment. Sure, we have some bold lines at Sam's, but everyone who has been there knows that all those lines can be top-roped. In fact, those lines can be top-roped easily, and inspected closely on the way down, because camping and access are at the top of the cliffs.
Overbolting is disgusting, period. Anyone who has seen it would agree, or they're crazy. If one is going to bolt on public land, they should have the backing of the entire community, as the entire community uses that land. On someone else's private land, you wouldn't think of bolting unless it was approved by the landowner (I hope).
On boldness at Sam's, the answer to the unacceptable bolting habits of some shouldn't be "Suck it up and do it on gear." It should be "Suck it up and do what you can to reduce your impact." If that means place gear on lead, so be it. If it means top-roping, then do that.
It should be understood that the world is not YOUR playground. It's everyone's. More people using an area means more impact, that can't be avoided. What can be avoided is the exponential growth in impact that would come from this Pandora's box (accepting overbolting, retrobolting, etc.) being opened.
Tread lightly, climb hard (or easy), have fun...
Erik P
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golsen
Apr 24, 2006, 10:46 PM
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Registered: Mar 1, 2005
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madscientist, I agree with you.
Here is another route which by todays standards is easy, 10a, but ill advised if you are fresh from the gym...
The Natural, Classic of the area...
http://static.flickr.com/...6_ad63884d88.jpg?v=0
Now, if someone takes it upon themselves to start retro bolting. Where does it stop? Anyone got some good answers? Should 5.12 only be done? How about 5.11? Well hell, Chickenhead wall where my 6 year old daughter climbed? Oh it was bolted already huh?
Once something like that starts, there is no telling where it may end. Perhaps a guidebook may increase traffic, but it could also serve as a way to communicate various unwritten rules of respect for all the areas down there...
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